duh - that makes sense! I had no idea they grew wild here - unless it's an escapee, as it's a bit off the beaten path. Thanks!

L. siphilitica: the colors I see here are all over the place, including one with blue and white: http://www.wildflower.org/gallery/species.php?id_plant=LOSI L. appendiculata var. gattingeri has the rounded bottom "petals"; BONAP doesn't list this subspecies; the species is no closer to you than IL and AL: http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=LOAPG BONAP for Lobelias: http://bonap.net/NAPA/TaxonMaps/Genus/County/Lobelia

The flower in the first picture does seem to match the Prenanthes altissima (Tall Rattlesnakeroot), but there is some disagreement about the leaf shape as in these two web sites : http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0508+0129 http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?id_plant=PRAL3 Are there any thoughts on that disagreement? The second flower was a very small plant and there were pleanty of them and they are definitely not Joe Pye Weed, maybe related Thanks Charles

The second one is a weed in every place it grows. I would pull them if they were on my property. The seed is a flat oval about 1/4 inch long with 2 sharp horns on the end. These horns are barbed, so when they get into your clothes, they stay there. It is torture to wear socks with these hanging on. Sort of like wearing cactus around your ankles.