Thanks for the reply, Slimy_Okra. Lots of helpful information.

May I ask what exactly is seed meal? I'm planning on gathering leaves from around my house and possibly from neighbors, but I still don't think it will be enough for how much I want to grow.

And how do you get hot peppers in your zone? I'm assuming you must have a heated greenhouse?

Thanks again for the help!

Things like soybean meal, alfalfa meal or cottonseed meal (beware that cottonseed meal may have a lot of pesticide residue). Alfalfa is a huge crop in my area, so I use alfalfa meal.

I use unheated high tunnels to get hot peppers and dry most of the harvest.

Look up SPIN FARMING. Although I haven't bought there books, they have a lot of free info on there website. also look at the testimonial list. Tons of info but you got to take the time to find it. John

From the amount of land you have you will not be able to provide both your family and a profitable market, you need a lot more land than 1/8th acre (as that is what it sounds like you have for actual good growing room. The SPIN farming suggestion is a good one as that will get you the land you need.

Market farming is not at all like growing for the family because you have the added stress of growing for people you do not even know and having to have enough produce every week for market. That is a key to marketing, you MUST show up every week or you will never grow and maintain a customer base.

Learn how to do succession planting, strongly consider putting up a high tunnel and learn how to market both face to face and on line and do not think for one moment you will earn more than a few hundred dollars your first year. You might get lucky and make a good profit the first year but most growers are lucky to break even.

Just to be clear, I'm only focusing on growing for the market this year. My goal of food self-reliance for my family is more of a long-term goal for when I have more land to work with.

Thanks for the suggestions, though. I will research the SPIN methods and report back with more questions. :)

You don't have enough land to grow for market. Sorry. You're going to be the person sitting there with 6 peppers and 2 onions. That won't pay your rent on your space. Maybe you should try for your food reliance goal instead. You could probably grow enough to help with your grocery bill considerably. Also since you are a beginning gardener, you probably wouldn't have the most beautiful or large veggies at first that you produce. What you grow would be more suitable for home canning and freezing. After you have some more gardening experience under your belt, then you could make a decision if you want to work that hard and try to get more land.

I'm not so sure about the space issues. I have yet to attend my first market, but in our current house, i built six 4x8 raised beds and with the ability to grow three crops per year per bed, we had more than we knew what to do with. We were givingiving away pounds of food every day. It was ridiculous. And this was without my current greenhouse and the additional eight raised beds I added this year.

sandy0225, sorry, but I disagree with most of your points.

I wouldn't say I'm an expert, but I feel like I'm not a beginner, either. I think you're making a rather large assumption when you say I would only have "6 peppers and 2 onions."

I've grown large and beautiful vegetables in my garden before, even without additional fertilizers (other than my own compost) and pesticides.

I don't "rent a space," either... I own all of the property I'm planning to use to grow produce.

I think you missed the part where I said my spouse has a job that more than capable of providing for my family's expenses. This is simply to make some extra money on the side as well as the ability to be my own boss.

I'm sure you were just trying to be honest, but I think I'm a more capable gardener than you are giving me credit for. Thanks anyway.

crikey ...

will you have to rent the stall space???? ... i presume that is what she was referring to ... many markets require such ....

and i am also of the thought.. that if you want to do this 'profitably' ... you will need.. at least.. an acre.. under cultivation .... with a multitude of plants offering a selection at your stall.. to entice a lot of peeps to stop and look ... if you just have 3 containers of tomatoes ... what if i dont like tomatoes .... in other words.. you have to have a succession of products over the entire season ... to attract customers ...

and that might mean ... that 1/3 of your garden is producing today ... one third is growing for sale in a month.. and one third for the month after ... and i just dont see how you do that.. in the space you have now ...

now.. dont get me wrong ... go for it ... and learn.. but you asked for advice... and we are giving it.. so dont go getting all offended.. or touchy.. when someone takes the time to respond .. eh???

i do wish you luck ..

ken

ps: it might be much quicker to rent a sod cutter.. and just get rid of it.. in one weekend... rather than trying to kill/smother the most invasive weed in the universe ... [of course.. you will have to figure out what to do with it all ....]

I'm sure sandy was exaggerating, but I've been there. I started out with just jams and jellies made the previous year, blackberries and some tomatoes in 2011. It wasn't a good year. I expanded and had a very good year in 2012, but if you read my threads asking for help you'll see that it's not as simple as being a good gardener. I've been gardening for decades, and grew up in a farm family but once you go beyond growing for half a dozen people or so, and only in the summer, it gets almost exponentially harder. Look at my pictures - I grow beautiful stuff, and enough (finally) of some of it, but not the right things or enough variety, or enough of more things (I'm still working on that).

The problem is timing (sometimes weather, which we can't do much about but the tunnel will help), succession planting so you always have something to bring (as well as *enough* of it to bring which could be a problem with limited space - there's always a tradeoff between space, variety, and labor hours), and my biggest problem marketing. Boulderbelt gave good advice. Try reading the threads I've started this week too. Lots of good advice there.

You want to grow "unusual stuff" - like what? Have you grown these things before? Are you sure there's a market for it? I think you should take the next year to go to your local markets and see what people have, and try to see if there's a gap you can fill (it's hard to ask people what they would like to buy at market and get reasonable answers - most of us can't grow citrus). Check into your local regulations to see what licenses and permits (like a nursery license and permit to collect sales tax). Believe me, I've tried flying by the seat of my pants and it doesn't work.

With 5000 sq ft (1/8 acre), you may want to start off with most of the area (say, 4000 sq ft) devoted to crops like turnips, scallions, beets, carrots and leafy greens, all of which are highly intensive crops. According to the SPIN guide, this can *theoretically* allow you to gross up to $12000 per year. Of course, that's assuming you sell all of it, which you won't, but it gives you an idea. The specialty aspect comes into play here if you select different varieties that most farmers don't grow, such as purple scallions, golden beets, Hakurei turnips, you get the idea. You can then devote 1000 sq ft to tomatoes and peppers to experiment with. Tomatoes and bell peppers are actually quite good crops to grow if you have the market and the climate. Unfortunately, the only true way to test the market is to actually do it - sacrifice a year just to gauge what people will or won't buy.

What I wouldn't grow in your limited space: corn, melons, squashes.

This post was edited by Slimy_Okra on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 12:56

I did ask for advice, fair enough. I guess I was a little annoyed at the "You can't do it with your space, so don't even try" attitude, but perhaps you all have a point.

The market I'm considering selling at charges $15/day, or $120 for the entire year.

I want to offer various lettuces, kale, peas, beans, some herbs like basil, sage and oregano, hot peppers and tomatoes. I also want to sell flowering plants.

Unusual stuff - orange, blue and black tomatoes, multicolored lettuces, various beans (not just green beans), super-sweet mini-peppers, purple basil... that's all I can think of right now. Not super unusual, but I never saw anything like that offered at this market this year.

Anyway, a lot of this advice is a little discouraging. Maybe I will just go back to studying permaculture and self-sufficiency.

This post was edited by tripleione on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 13:14

You need to do your market research first:

What, if any, are the state or county or city regulations for growing things for farmer's markets? Chilling, washing, etc. It's food and improperly handled, can kill people.

And for growing landscape plants and seedlings? (NM requires a permit and an inspection for these, permit only for veggies)

What is the demand like for the things you want to grow? Or can grow? There may be a reason you didn't see purple tomatoes and black squash, and it might have been lack of demand.

Are there any ethnic groups with favorite vegetables you can grow that are hard to find in the stores?

===================
Until you are growing fresh stuff for your family through the entire growing season, with enough to give away to the neighbors, you probably aren't ready to take on a market. It's a whole different ball game.

I'd start by converting the lawn into vegetable gardens and trying to make the "we eat and preserve our own" goal next spring, summer, and fall.

Work on improving soil one bed at a time - do one thoroughly instead of skimping on several.

Get your seed starting skills perfected. Many plants will grow just fine in weather they can't sprout in, so indoor starting means earlier harvest ... the first to market with fresh whatever can make money. (ask the hoophouse users)

Get your Intensive gardening process figured out. With a small area you have to be super efficient at it.

don't listen to their discouraging words. you know how to grow. now learn how to sell. doing it is the only way to learn. sounds like you can afford some risk of not getting it completely right the first time.

I agree with Randy - since you have your spouse's income, and breaking even (or even making a loss) is not that big of a deal, I would advise you to go ahead and try it. What's the worst that could happen? The absolute worst thing that could happen is that you lose a few hundred dollars and some time (but time spent doing something you enjoy anyway). So don't get discouraged.

$120 a year is a very, very reasonable fee. You sure there's no typo there? My market charges $1600 a year (it is open year-round).

All the stuff you intend on growing sounds good to me - good profit potential with all of them except the peas and beans (labor intensive to pick for the returns you get). The only variable here is the market, but you don't really know it until you've gone to the market for a year.

Also, I don't know about your market but at mine, it's very difficult to get in but once you're in, you're in. If you have the opportunity to "get your foot in the door", do it now - don't postpone it. Two or three years later, when you've got all the production figured out, you don't want to find out that the market has stopped accepting new applications.

My first year at market, I didn't even break $1000 gross. I was the vendor with six peppers and two onions, so to speak, but I wasn't there to sell; I was there to observe and to guarantee my membership on a firm footing for the future. It is only now, my fourth year, that I broke the $10,000 mark. That's still nowhere near enough to make a living (I have a part time job), but each year is a learning experience and the first three years taught me a lot.

This post was edited by Slimy_Okra on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 14:59

Thanks for the encouraging words.

Here's the website for the market I'm referring to. I looked twice to make sure I didn't ready it wrong. It does say $120/year... 1 day per week. There aren't a whole lot of vendors yet. Perhaps that is the reason why the price is so cheap. The whole complex is actually fairly new (it's a parking lot in a commercial center near my house).

I'm going to join next year for sure, assuming they still have open spots. I really like the idea of being my own boss, while doing something I truly enjoy. I think that is 90% of the reason I considered the market... the money is just icing on the cake.

Thank you all for the advice. I'm sure I'll be back soon to ask more questions!

Whoops, forgot the link:

http://leicesterfarmersmarket.com/

A market like that will likely accept new vendors. However, I would recommend shortlisting another market or two as a backup. You will also want to find out if you can obtain membership in them without selling the first year. My market allows it.

$1600/year? That's bonkers! Both of my local markets are $15/table per day.

http://www.northsaanichfarmmarket.ca

http://peninsulacountrymarket.ca

Here it's $20 or more per day, $300 or more for the summer season (which can run anywhere from 8 to 20 weeks depending on the market). I haven't looked into any markets that go into the winter since I haven't been growing/storing anything (and those are farther away).

I got spoiled b/c my first market was $125 for 20 weeks.

Back to the space debate......I still think a small amount of space can be profitable. Of course you have to be more creative. You're not going to grow 20 acres of potatoes and carrots, LOL. But then again, your equipment requirements and time requirements will be different as well. And possibly in your favour. More time for marketing, planning, strategizing, and maximizing your yields. Use what you have and make the most of it. Grow smaller stuff. Grow vertical. You can grow hundreds of pounds of cucumbers in a small space if you go vertical. Same with indeterminate tomatoes.

As soon as someone says "it can't be done", my first though is, challenge accepted!

I'll trow in my 2 cents as well. I don't hit the traditional farmers markets much. I do a front yard stand with veggie starts in the spring. My money is made by growing specialty crops for a fairly upscale restaurant. The place has a rotating seasonal menu that they tailor to what's coming in. This year I tried to do too many different things for them and as a result, I wasn't able to do any one thing in the quantity/quality they really needed. But they have been very accommodating and next season I will be focusing on just a few Items that do well for both of us. Don't be afraid to check local (not chain) restaurants and see what they are looking for. also check out growing shallow root crops in rain gutters or half pipes. I will be hitting that harder next season. I'm running a 2500 sq ft veggie patch and a 385 sq ft pvc hoop house. This was my first full year trying to cater to the restaurant and I grossed just over 1k. With better planning I ought to be able to do a fair bit better next year.
Compost-wise: the leaves from your oak will work OK, but they will suck the nitrogen from your soil if they aren't VERY composted ahead of time. I use shredded leaves as a top mulch to keep weeds down and it doesn't seem to hinder N as bad as mixing them into the soil. Find a horse/livestock barn in your area and see if they have a manure pile you can raid. Blend the manure and leaves and turn frequently so it stays hot enough to kill weed seeds. Once it cools down, I usually spread it over my beds in the fall and till in come the spring.
I till some, but not much. For a smaller area you might check out broad forks for turning the patches.

sorry I didn't mean to make you mad or be a jerk or rain on your parade.... I don't want anyone not to try. But please don't think it's going to be easy.Twelve years ago, I thought I wanted to have my own greenhouse business because I like to grow plants. I thought i wanted to be a market gardener so I'd have work all year long...well it's been a learning curve anyway! so if you like to learn a lot every year, it's a great job for you...and if you think you have it figured out, think again, something will happen for sure...and every time someone comes in the greenhouse or market and says "you have my dream job!" I just groan on the inside. One lady told me she wanted to do this when she retires in a couple of years because it would be easier than her job where she has to stand on her feet for 8 hours. I thought to myself "only 8 hours, where do you work?and "you get to retire? they're actually going to give you money when you do?" She has it made... I never work less than 12 hours all summer from February to November.Broiling in the sun and freezing in the rain because you have to get things picked for market. and the rest of the year I'm cleaning the greenhouses and beds and ordering supplies and going into debt for next year. or cleaning my house that didn't get cleaned all summer or fall or spring especially. And worrying that the wind will take down all your work, or grasshoppers, or thrips, or aphids.I've had the opportunity to learn about bugs and diseases I didn't even know existed when I was just home gardening.
A lot of times when you don't see something at the market, it's because it doesn't sell enough to be worth the effort. That's been my experience.I've grown several things I didn't see at the market, it turns out it's because people don't really want it, at least enough to put their cash into action. Purple basil has always been a hard sell for me. I sell plants in the spring, well actually all year long. Purple basil is beautiful, tasty, and you have to beg people to buy it pretty much! heirloom tomatoes is another thing I've had a hard time with. Yes, they taste better and they are probably better in every way. But most customers around here would rather eat a pretty tomato with worse taste than a very tasty one that has a crack or doesn't look quite so appealing.And it's a lot harder to get them to market in good shape.
to sell plants in most states, you need to have either a dealers license to resell or a growers license to grow and in our state if you want to grow and sell you need both. I have both. that's extra money and they come and inspect in the spring when you're just so busy you really don't need another hassle! LOL
If you don't need to make money at this, then just have fun with it. but please, don't be the person at the market practically giving things away to get people to try it, or if you do have the same things as someone else, don't undercut them much just because you don't have to make a lot of money. value your time and effort. I am just also currently in a bad mood over people who want to do this part time because there are some people who are pretty much ruining our market by having lots and lots of stuff really cheap because they "planted too much" and "we have other jobs anyway". they are selling things so cheap that I wouldn't even haul them to market for that price. It's hard to make money marketing anyway, but especially when you're against that kind of thing!

It's fine, sandy. I can really understand where you are coming from when you explained how it's a very tough job for someone trying to actually make a living wage when other people are undercutting or just giving away their supply.

I appreciate that you came back and explained everything from your point so thoroughly. If I decide to try selling my produce, I will keep your comments about the value of my, and other vendors, time in mind.

And yes, I do love to learn all the time! And no, I definitely don't have it all figured out, haha.