Westy,

If you are going to use Round Up, do it after the plants have finished flowering and while they are still growing. It doesn't make sense to use it after frost. Round Up is absorbed through the foliage and is deactivated in the soil. It may take more than one application. Make sure you protect the surrounding plants. Use cardboard barriers or cover other plants with a tarp. Make sure you use low pressure on your sprayer. You want droplets to be emerging, not spray. Practice with water first if you need to. You can still wait until after frost to dig.

As to whether or not to use it depends on your situation. If you can protect your other plants and apply it properly then I would do it. You want as little plant sap to be active as possible when digging. I would try to give it at least a month between application and digging. This, of course, depends on flowering dates and frost dates.

Could raking the leaves in past years have passed the virus? It's possible, but in the latest research, the technicians were not able to transmit the virus after flowering had finished. That's not to say it's not possible, but it's less likely. It's more likely your tools spread it within your garden in the Spring.

Be vigilant looking for symptoms on other plants and make sure you are sanitizing your tools after working with any Hosta. You should treat your plants as if any of them could have the virus.

I wish you the best with this unpleasant task.

Steve

I used the 'Foam' selection on the Roundup spray bottle, applied it also to the stems down to the crown. Then to prevent that the leaves will lay down on other hostas I bundled and weighed the leaves down with a burlap screen I had. I noticed on another treated hosta that roots will still exist after the leaves have dried. But I found that advantageous because I could see where the roots went when I dug out the plant and soil. When roots would be all dead I could miss removing some of that virused matter.
Bernd

Westy,

Steve is right the more active the plant is growing, the faster Roundup or glyphosate will work. The peak growing season is over, so I would not wait. I would avoid any chance of damage from overspray by using a disposable foam paintbrush and paint the plant all over.

Glyphostae interferes with plant enzymes and this is why it "kills to the root". Hostas have thick leaves so it may take some time or multiple applications if no affect is seen in a week or so. I would use the highest concentration called for on the label, but I'm sure it will work. Roundup has a poison ivy and brush product that would probably speed up the process. I use a glyphosate generic on poison ivy and it works just fine.

I would do it now and wait until Spring to dig out the dead roots and replant. Spraying after the plant goes dormant will not work.

A reaction will occur after two weeks on earliest.

I hate to again be the dissenting opinion here, but personally and professionally I don't think spraying with Roundup is necessary or any more effective than simply digging out the plant without spraying. The best and really only time you should be digging out HVX infected plants is in the fall after a killing frost. At that time, during dormancy, there is little or no plant sap flowing within hostas and while it is still possible to move HVX from the infected plant to your tools it was shown in Dr. Lockhart's study that any inoculated healthy plant did not contract the virus when dormant in the fall (it may still be possible, as a scientifically statistical sample size was not used in this study, however the chance is considered much lower than digging in spring or summer). On the other hand if you dig in the summer you will not only get HVX on your shovel, regardless of whether or not it was sprayed with roundup, but it is very possible to spread it at that time to the healthy plants around. So for that reason, wait until fall to dig them out and you don't have to worry about it.

And about the Roundup situation, even though the top of the plant and crown might be dead, Roundup does not always kill to the root. That may be true for some weeds, but it isn't true for all plants. Top kill and partial kill occurs often, but those roots can still remain active for months and will still be infectious, even if the top of the plant is dead. I've seen cases where voles had eaten the entire crown out of potted plants and the roots continue to grow into the summer without any crown or living plant above. The same could happen with roundup. Ask Bernd, he mentioned that two weeks after spraying his hosta with roundup the roots still looked alive. If those roots were tested for HVX I'm certain they would test positive for a very long time after spraying meaning they could still transmit HVX to healthy plants.

Dr. Lockhart did a study to see if HVX residue remains in soil after completely removing infected plants and he proved that YES, even after removing the plant and visible root system, HVX remained active in the soil for the entire duration of his experiment, passing HVX on to future plants put in the same location. The study lasted two years, and all that time HVX was still in the soil after removing the plant two years earlier. We don't know how long HVX can actually survive in the soil, since the study ended, but the advice now is to NEVER replant a hosta in the same garden spot as a previously infected plant. The only way would be to completely remove the garden soil and replace with all new soil (rent a bucket loader or backhoe?), as HVX remains active in the dirt as shown in his scientific study funded by the American Hosta Society. This was a very surprising finding and the most important result of his research, in my opinion.

And one final note, while Dr. Lockhart's study showed that some plants did not catch HVX when cut after flowering, this is still considered risky behavior as not all plants slow down their growth after flowering, and most actually start to set buds and have another flush of foliage and some even flower again, so plants can still be very active after flowering. When I first got preliminary results from this part of the study I was under the impression that it was only a study to see if cutting scapes could transmit the virus and I was led to believe it didn't involve cutting other parts of the plant. But the final results were really confusing and it seems like it meant ANY cutting could be done after flowering, but I don't think that is true. Again, a small sample size was used here and he made some very broad conclusions that I do not believe were supported by the small amount of data, so be careful with this one.

I hope that helps to clear a little of this up, or at least try and share my own opinions based on my experience.

Chris

In my holes there will be no virus left over, because not only the plant will be gone, but also the soil plant and viruses were living in. In case there is any virus left on the walls of the hole, they will have no access to the new plant and soil due to newspaper placed over them.
Bernd

Newspaper will disintegrate in less than 2 years in the ground where it's damp. Not to mention, I have worm bins, and worms love to eat newspaper.

Deanna

Chris,

Digging up hostas without killing them is a needless risk. At any time of the year roots will have sap in them and sap from the infected hosta will infect any healthy hostas which have their roots cut.

You cannot simultaneously argue that tissue from infected hostas can live for 2 years or longer buried and suggest digging out a live hosta would be good practice. Since live hosta debris and roots left buried in the ground can remain infected for 2+ years as proved in Prof. Lockhearts's studies, it would be very risky to dig out an infected hosta before killing it. It is exactly because HVX lives a long time in buried live tissue that the plant should be killed before any digging takes place.

Even if you think (against the findings from all the studies done) that HVX virus can survive outside of living tissue it is still just common sense that killing off the living tissue would lower the risk dramatically even if every scientist that has conducted studies is wrong and HVX has properties unlike any other plant virus and this property was missed by scientists in their studies....somehow.

Jon

Jon others have the right to state their beliefs without you constantly arguing with them. I for one will listen to Chris everytime because he is the authority, and is my right to believe so. It'd be nice if we could just have a nice forum without the constant arguments.
Cher

OK here's what I'm doing: bought children's plastic scissors as well as plastic serrated knives and cut the leaves down. Left about 6" of petiole, shoved each leaf into plastic bags (many), painted Roundup on the stubs of petioles with a sponge brush. Entire area around each plant was protected by a partial cardboard box just in case a drop of Roundup got loose. Threw away the scissors into a plastic bag as well as the latex gloves I used (not taking any chances!) I'm leaving for a month in three weeks. Should I wait until the end of August to dig them up or do it sooner? I plan to fill the hole with soil, mulch and leaves and other garden debris and add to the flagstone walkway with more flagstone by covering these holes. Only thing that bothers me is knowing the plastic bags will be going to a landfill somewhere and it will be 100 years before they're gone. Maybe the virus will be dead and gone by then.

Westy

Westy,

My advise it to wait until after frost to dig the rest. Whether or not you agree with the Round Up debate, I think it is prudent to wait till after frost. There is no benefit to digging now. Good work, thus far, BTW.

Steve

Probably the infected hosta and all those viruses will compost in the landfill and create Methane. In case it is a large landfill they might even generate power from the gases, or burn them off. I call this power generation 'green' use of HVX viruses. ;)

Chohio,

You mistake my clearly and concisely explaining the science behind my suggested process of killing hostas before digging them out for arguing. I am simply stating facts and reason. I do find it tedious that a few people will simply say-

"I don't think spraying with Roundup is necessary or any more effective than simply digging out the plant without spraying." and suggesting digging them up in the Fall as they are dormant which ignores the fact they are still alive and infectous.

Repeating the fact that buried hosta debris and roots survive for 2 years carrying the disease would suggest aanother good reason to kill a hosta before digging it up. Digging into an infectdtous hosta makes as much sense as a doctor cutting into an infection.

I have no problem listening to other's opinions, but when they defy logic I will respond. You may call me aguementative. I regard those who disregard something I say and back up with science and then reply saying they are going to suggest people do just the opposite based on their "belief" is arguementative on their part.

It is the worst kind of arguement. It says I'm going to completely disregard your logic and give no viable reason for my thinking and just suggest the oppoosite of what you say.

If you accept that "arguement" then dig up your infected hostas and spread HVX then go ahead. I don't think anyone that objectively looks at the evidence would.

Jon

Westy,

I would paint the leaves as I think it would hasten the process. I know that tree stumps are killed by drilling holes near the cambien layer of the stump and pouring in glyphosate so your method will work. I just think it might be slower, although it is just my guess.

Jon

In case you want to take out a living hosta, do it like Ken suggests to move large hostas, tape all the leaves tightly together. Then you can see the perimeter where you want to dig much better and do not spray hosta juices all around.
Bernd

'It is the worst kind of arguement. It says I'm going to completely disregard your logic and give no viable reason for my thinking and just suggest the oppoosite of what you say.
If you accept that "arguement" then dig up your infected hostas and spread HVX then go ahead. I don't think anyone that objectively looks at the evidence would."

What a condescending remark? No one has said roundup won't kill the plant, NO ONE, but I know it doesn't always kill the roots on dandelion nor ivy or many others things. If I'm a big believer in roundup but I am well aware of it's limitations. I didn't realize there was evidence that it killed all of the Hosta roots, could you send me a link to that information? It would be wonderful if it does, but I would like to see the evidence before it's stated as fact since I know it doesn't kill roots on everything. And please refrain from your tone with only your belief being the only way to go and knocking others of us for wanting proof.
Cher

"If I'm a big believer in roundup but I am well aware of it's limitations. I didn't realize there was evidence that it killed all of the Hosta roots, could you send me a link to that information? It would be wonderful if it does, but I would like to see the evidence before it's stated as fact since I know it doesn't kill roots on everything."

Scotts guarantees it will "Kill to the root". Since you are "aware of its limitations" I would like to have you verify what information you may have the disputes their claim and guarantee.

Lets see, should I believe Scotts or cher who claims she knows different, but somehow will not be able to produce a thing.

Cher, you are full of baloney.

Jon

Same goes Jon. Where is your evidence that it kills all roots? Just because a company claims something does not make it true. I also don't go on here arguing with others. Just something I've seen with use here, most recently with ivy at my mom's. Grow up!
Cher

Cher,

I live on the edge of deep woods and I kill huge tracts of poison ivy every year and glyphosate kills it 100%. I do use the strongest concentration on the label. My neighbor had a patch that was established for 15 years and glyphosate killed it "to the root" as it never came back.

Tell your Mom to try Scotts new poison ivy and tough brush since she has problems or use concentrate and use the highest recommended concentration.

I assume by your line of questioning that you see no fault in my logic in killing hostas before digging up diseased hostas. You are now just suggesting glyphosate doesn't work and are struggling to prove this? Right?

For someone that abhores arguing, you do an awful lot. You would think with all the practice, you would get better at it.

Jon

Actually I can't stand arguing, but I dislike people not being able to make their own comments without being harassed about it and it gets my fairness issue going in me. A lot of people don't come into these forums to post because they are afraid of being attacked. All should be able to make their comments as long as they don't attack or hurt others feelings.

On the other note, I did include the brush killer with some roundup last time since I was getting tired of it not killing everything. Around my 5th spray since April. Not sure if it did it completely but so far it was looking like it might be ok, and I finally just yesterday in this awful heat, covered the whole bed in papers and mulched it out, since I really needed to get the bed ready for September planting.
Cher

Forgot to answer your other question. I'd love to see results for the testing of roundup. Including the soil, etc. At this point we don't know if it won't kill the roots same as ivy. Hopefully they are looking at tests into this. So far I haven't had it, note I said so far. Hopefully if I get it there will be more info on it. If I had HVX now, I have no problem spraying the plant so it's out of my way to dig up, rather than taping or cutting leaves off but I would dig it up in the fall when the chances are lower of spreading disease by following current protocol.
Cher

Cher,

So it all boils down to Chris not agreeing with killing a diseased hosta before removing it, even though every scientific test done indicates HVX cannot live outside of living tissue (as no plant virus can) because he "believes" it makes no differnce and you not "believing" that glyphosates can kill hostas.

Galileo had a problem similar to mine; trying to "argue" science against "beliefs". It is a good thing burning at the stake isn't in fashion anymore.

Jon

Jon, Chris gave you a reasoned and respectful response - that is what we come to expect from Chris. And just because you are adamant that your reasoning is somehow superior - requires you to beat the dead horse.

If I told you I read there is a plant virus that is able to survive in a dormant state in dead tissue and later able to infect a growing plant - would that temper your thoughts.

I was at the Keynote Address by Dr Lockhart at the 2010 AHS Convention in Minnesota - he was suprised at some of the discoveries and it challenged what he knew previously was fact. If he questions and sees the need to investigate and research - how can we be so sure. I expect the current round of research will raise another round of questions.

I'm not one to go round and round in a discussion - so you have the last word.

Respectfully

Paul

http://extension.psu.edu/plant-disease-factsheets/all-fact-sheets/tobacco-mosaic-virus-in-greenhouses

Paul,

Your link refers to Tobacco Mosaic Virus. In every study conducted including Dr. Lockhart's the conclusion is that HVX cannot survive outside living tissue. This is why I would recommend killing the plant before attempting to remove it. I am surprised that TMVC can survive in dead tissue as no other plant virus can. The same test that showed this possible in TMV showed it impossible in HVX.

Chris says he doesn't see any advantage to killing the hosta without explaining why he holds this belief. I have explained my position and it is entirely logical and in agreement with the best science available.

Others don't like the fact that I reiterate my point and say I am being argumentative. I am, I suppose. I do not accept Chris' position. If he has some scientific basis to share that will convince me then I would like to hear it. I do not find his "belief" convincing evidence.

Chris has forgotten more about hostas than I will ever know. That does not mean he is infallible. Will research show that the virus somehow survives in dead tissue after current studies under strict scientific conditions show it does not? I suppose it is possible, but why would you not use the best scientific information possible? Why would you choose to imagine what is possible rather than relying on what has been proven?

Killing an infected hosta is the safest surest way to limit the spread. This would hold true even if by some miracle existing science is proven wrong and HVX can go dormant.

I find the defense of Chris admirable. I find the logic non-existent.

Jon

Jon-

Well, I guess you would like us to all bow down and accept your unimpeachable opinion. You must be very young and inexperienced to think that "facts" can only be interpreted one way...your way.

-Babka

Sorry to continue this thread ad nauseum, but there is need for caution: Jon wrote: (he) 'recommend(s) killing the plant before attempting to remove it. I am surprised that TMVC can survive in dead tissue as no other plant virus can.'

After waiting a few weeks after spraying with Roundup the leaves will be dry and could be blown into other hostas by a strong wind, I did pick them up. Now when you will wait several months to have the roots all composted, per above studies the virus could still be in the soil, but you would not be able to know where. Therefore, to remove all of the plant plus soil, you need to remove it as long as you can still see the roots, which is soon after the leaves have dried. - the end

Babka,

So far my opinion is backed up with science. I don't expect anyone to bow down to me. I do expect they will respect my opinions and if they disagree they will present facts rather than their unsubstantiated and easily disproved beliefs. I don't even expect them to believe me. I do however expect that if they offer a different opinion they should study the facts.

Here are the facts.

1. HVX only exists in live tissue.

2. Glyphosates will kill hostas and all tissue to the root as far as any person alive can tell.

3. Digging up a live infected hosta in proximity to uninfected hostas is dangerous and can easily spread the disease.

4. Digging up a living infected hosta can easily leave remnants of the roots that can infect any other hosta planted in the same area for a very long time.

5. No study has found HVX to have the ability to go dormant. In fact, just the opposite has been found to be true.

6. There is no downside to killing a hosta infected with HVX.

These are the facts that I have verified and keep repeating.

Chris' response to these facts-

"I don't think spraying with Roundup is necessary or any more effective than simply digging out the plant without spraying."

Cher's response is that I can't prove glyphosate kills hostas and she doesn't think it does because her mother can't kill poison ivy with it.

Paul accuses me of not being respectful because I disagree and quotes a study on Tomato Mosaic Virus proposing it is relevent to HVX virus when it is not.

...and you say that I expect everyone to bow down to me and suggest there is some other way of interpreting the facts...but you somehow never explain this way of interpreting facts differently.

When others come back and say they don't "believe" that it makes any difference wether you kill the tissue before digging up a plant after hearing what I have to say several times, and offering no explanation as to why they don't "bleive" it makes any difference then you will have to excuse me if I repeat my reasoning to them.

I would point out that I have never treated anyone with anything but respect. I have simply stated the facts and defended my position. If people think it disrespectful to defend a position with scientific facts then that is their problem.

If you say this is because I must be young; this would be just one more point where you are wrong.

Jon

Ah, Jon I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, so you could excuse your rigidness due to your youth. If you are older and still cannot accept that there will always be people with different opinions from yours, I'm sorry for you.

Yes, (IMHO)you come across as disrespectful and arrogant, and it is your problem, not mine or anyone else'.

-Babka

Bernd,

HVX cannot survive in soil. It can only survive in living hosta tissue. The dead hosta leaves can be picked up and the roots left to die. By digging up the roots when you can see them runs the risk of digging them up before all the tissue has died.

If I ever have HVX, I will paint the hosta(s) with strong glyphosate and wait over winter to dig out the area to ensure the roots are dead as well as the virus. I have tried to find out how long it takes to kill plant roots and I assume that this is not available as different plants take longer to die. Hostas with their usually thick leaves would take longer than say a dandilion.

I would err on the side of caution and wait until Spring before digging out the dead roots. The amount of root necessary to support HVX is miniscule and not visible by eye. Seeing the root does not guarantee that you get all the root.

Respectfully,

Jon

babka,

I have no intention to lower myself to your level.

Jon

Wow, Jon, I will get rid of this HVX thing. I use the theory only to work safely and make my garden work. I do not care if the virus is in living or dead matter, I get rid of it with the soil. I spray Roundup only to get rid of the leaves before I dig out the hole. I look for still living roots so I know how far I have to dig plus some more. Thereafter I have a blank slate to start a new hosta in. I do not like to have disease areas around my garden, it is unsatisfying. When I worked as an engineer I did not let problems lie around for years, but found a workable solution and fixed it. Last year (without testing for HVX) I did this with cleaning out a hole, putting new soil in it and a H.'Krossa Regal', that worked fine, is still healthy. This is how I work in my garden, same with crown rot, insects in the lawn or a fungus tree, have to keep going after it. Irawon has done it for 5 years, so it is proven!
Bernd

I've seen those plants....Westy listen to Chris please.
Plant another hydrangea in the spots. I can't believe you did this in the heat we are having... :)

I need to mention that what I do works in my landscape due to large enough distances between hostas. When you have hostas planted tightly then you can not dig with living roots because you also would cut roots of healthy plants and infect those then. Be careful!
Bernd

Bernd,

Diggin out an infected hosta, no matter how careful you are, may leave bits of infected root. I maintain killing it will eliminate this risk.

Jon