I can not imagine growing a tomato plant in a 4" pipe. I just can't see it not clogging the system. It seems I've also read this in other threads. I have grown peppers and eggplant and (started to at least) grow soy in NFT without too many problems but tomato plants are just way bigger.
Here is how I start the plants until the roots get out the pots. I dam the end of the run with a piece of vertical blind and some silicon. just dam it high enough so the bottom of the media get wet and can wick up to the plant. after the rood start coming out, simply tear off the dam.

Grizzman,

Thanks for responding! I'm with you, I don't see how a 4" pipe could help but clog up with roots after a period of time. I would feel way more comfortable with a set-up that was 8" tall and 6" wide. Now, I can live with trying it using a 5" fence post type gutter and if it works great, build trays using lumber and those basic shower walls.

Another option would be something like an aeroponics system with PVC tube running down the middle of the channel. It would have emitters between the plants that would spray the them.

Thankfully, I do not have to worry about power outages, as I have a decent generator. Not big enough to run several lights and pumps but enough to get me through a week or so if I need to.

Mike

As far as I'm concerned, I would never use a NFT system for tomato's. As already mentioned specifiably because of the root size, clogging and/or drainage problems. All commercial hydroponic systems for tomatoes are a drip system (that I can remember seeing). From my own experience I would not grow them again unless I was able to give them 5 gallons of root space each (as apposed to the 2 gallons I had before). Even in hydro I don't think I would be happy with anything less than 3 feet between plants for tomato's (unless they were dwarf plants).

As for the question " Can I space them one foot apart? " I'm a bit confused. Because you can space them one inch apart if you wanted to. To me it's not a mater if you can, but is it practical. If you trained them to grow straight up and trimmed them so they never got more than 2 foot wide, in rows that alternated left-and-right, it may be practical. It really all depends on your design, variety, and how much space you have to work with.

I personally am not a fan of overly manicuring tomato plants, I have not grown them commercially. But I have grown them for many years in soil. And I rarely ever manicured them, only when I couldn't get in-between them, or walk around them did I ever cut/trim them at all, but it was difficult to see the tomatoes in the middle (even though there were lots of them).

Homehydro,

A couple points of clarification as well as observations:

My system that I am building is a DIY hybrid. For this trial, the troughs will be 40" long, 8" wide and 9.5" tall. That's a bit over four gallons of area per plant (three per trough). It will combine aeroponics with NFT - a small stream of water will be delivered to each plant's roots then drain back to the tank.

Yes, in theory, if I could give the plants enough room for their roots to grow, I could space them 1" apart. Put for this test, the closest I can place them is about 10-11" - just enough so a 600-watt MH bulb will bathe four rows of them in enough light. I raised plants in containers in my GH last winter to realize 12" if enough room. I don't train the plants, but I do cut off bottom leaves once they start to turn the least bit yellow. I also run a fan 24/7 and this winter will have a humidifier.

Looking forward to this trial.

Mike

There is nothing uncommon or unorthodox with growing Tomatoes in NFT (channels). On the contrary, It's quite a common technique used by amateurs and commercial growers alike and since decades. There are just too many examples and links to mention, that clearly demonstrate this simple fact.

About root size with tomatoes and other crops there seems to be a quite resistant misconception as well: root size depend on two factors and the more obvious is the simple plant size- versus = equals -root size factor. But then there is a secondary-one, which is scientifically called shot- versus root size. And this factor may differ largely and depend on several environmental factors. Mostly lighting and nutrition. Larger or "impressive" roots (or high root- versus shot size) factors aren't necessary an indication for healthy and productive plants. And right, in any NFT setup they are actually wanted even less. Except for carrots and root vegetables, we want to grow crops, no roots - don't we? Plants do not develop a large(r) root system for any contest or for fun, but to improve nutrient uptake if needed. If you are starving them, they'll develop an even larger root system. Hence optimised lighting and administrating a truly balanced nutrient formula and concentration will actually prevent large or excessive root mass "at the root".

About NFT techniques in general, there are several resistant misconceptions as well. Apparently from people who may have read a lot about it, but haven't actually never ever used anything of the sort. The "Film" as in Nutrient Film can't be taken literary as it only describes the state of the art and the growing technology in an early stage. Some people (or literature) are in fact referring to an "ideal" of a FILM as little as some 2 mm or similar. Seems to me if they have never grown any crop in any NFT system either. Because no matter what you grow and no mater how you optimise growth (with a few exceptions like chives, and some others), the root mass will expand in the channels and the "film" will transform to some sort of much higher stream eventually. The actual flow will be slowed down gradually as well. You will always keep the benefit of a shallow flow and most importantly an extended intermediate zone with an optimised uptake (which roots actually will prefer and expand best in) with this system. But as a simple matter of facts a general shallow flow through a more or less extended root mass, is what you will INEVITABLY end up with in a later growing stage. No matter what the theory may suggest - Full stop.

One more thing that is widely underestimated with this technique are the grooved channels as in "real" NFT channels. They (unlike any flat surfaced substitute material or channel) provide an extended and regular flow at the surface of the channel's bottom, an thus enable running the channels with an adequate (lesser) slope and especially a much better oxygenation (plus uptake) of roots, especially in an early stage. This is a key part in NFT growing and any substitute material without a grooved bottom simply can't provide this.

The most common recommendation for spacing of tomato in NFT channels is 50 cm, which translates to 1'8". By experience, two feet seems safer to me, depending on setup, variety and channel type. Triangular shaped channels have been quite popular for tomatoes since ages. But I prefer larger (actually quite shallow), open channels covered with a styrofoam (or even styrodur) sheet cover. They allow (emergency) access to the root zone and are very easy to clean.

Yes, varieties do matter and have to "fit" for the growing method somehow - hence you wouldn't choose a variety that grows enormous but slow and would in fact end up in literally filling up your channels with root mass to the point they get clogged. For this part it may be best to inquire with NFT tomato growers (Universities) and the varieties they actually grow in a specific channel size or system.

With commercial growing of tomatoes in NFT, adequate (sometimes heavy) pruning is indicated and the order of the day. Most common is a 2 stalk growing method, where every later lateral shot is systematically pruned. It goes without saying, that adequate pruning notably contributes to limiting root size.

For commercial growing I wouldn't recommend any hybrid systems of the sort and a "prototype" even less. There is too much at stake, even for a smaller venture. Only with as little as 100 plants, I can't picture anyone checking on that much sprayers, noozles, tubes etc. on a daily (or only several day) basis. At this or even larger scale It's not exactly what I imagine keeping any commercial grower sweet, wile taking care of a 500 or 1000 plants site ;-)

It's been about ten days and I have ran into a few snags - mostly building the troughs. I want them to be large enough for the roots to grow. Trying to build them has been a PITA, mainly finding a way to keep them from leaking after drilling holes for the tubing (to spray the plants and to drain the water). I have eight Sterilite 56-quart containers that already have holes drilled in the lids for plants to sit in. Getting grommets into the sides and bottom will be much, much easier also. I ordered a 526 gph water pump and some Botanicare 180 degree misters (I also have some EZ Clone nozzles) so I should be able to deliver plenty of water. I admit, I don't like the EZ Clone nozzles - I need to find a true "mister."

I'll only be trying 12-18 plants. My DWC trial has not been very successful, probably because temps upstairs were reaching 110 or higher during the day. I also discovered I can run through one huge amount of nuits in a week, especially at those temps. Not that I wouldn't even with NFT but I should be able to control the make-up of the nuits better.

Mike

2.5 weeks later and things look good. Hardly any leaks at all, the roots are starting to grow and the ones that started in DWC (and survived the 110 degree temps) have blooms.

The next time, I think I will use 1/4" PVC instead of 1/2" and drill smaller holes.

Mike

Mike,

NFT systems have their advantages in commercial applications mainly because they are cost effective. It is cheaper to operate NFT gutter systems as they are comprised of low cost plastic troughs and require virtually no grow medium.

The best way to run them is to operate them on a recycle timer. There are timers made by various hydroponic and environmental control companies that make timers specifically for NFT operation. A common setting is 1 minute ON and 4 minutes OFF. As the water flows through the trough it accumulates oxygen which help nourish the root systems and increase nutritional uptake.

My overall opinion is that NFT systems work well, but by no means would it be my first choice for a hydroponic grow.

L

Hi chlorophyll,

I don't see the main advantage with NFT systems in being "cost effective". There is not much that I'd call cost effective with those. The "real" channels/gutters as they are commonly used by commercial growers are relatively expensive. The price for supports/frames for either a smaller, medium- or big scale NFT setup, are often underestimated as well - especially if you go for something decent, instead of some of the "hobby stands" seen around in forum pics. Nothing wrong with those, but they are no match for a commercial farm.

In fact the nutrients run 24/7 in most cases (I know of) and there is no such thing as a "common" 1 minute go and 4 minute stop interval. Depending on climatic conditions, such "saving measure" would not even be indicated at all - in fact not save enough energy for the risk.

The advantage of NFT growing is that it is quite a "sure to grow" system, and delivers a good compromise between passive and high tech (aeroponic) systems. Decent growing rates and the fact that you can also grow at higher nutrient temperatures as with any passive system is an advantage too. The re-oxygenation comes (mostly) from downfall of the collected outlet(s) to the main reservoir. The good uptake of nutrient/oxygen is due to an extended "intermediate zone" inside the channels and a nutrient flow that is permanently recycled and re-oxygenated (as described).

Even if there is "virtually no" growing medium, there still is some. There are various techniques ranging from 1" rock wool cubes to mini cups filled with perlite (as they are used here around) and seedlings need to be nursed somehow and replanted as well if you want to have good results and growing rates. Well that's what most commercial growers do for the purpose. Hence there is material cost and also some labor involved in this part, that isn't exactly for free at large scale.

Conclusion: the main advantages with NFT are growing rate and "sure to grow" results. Cost effectiveness is relative, and (obviously) depends on the market value of the grown crops - versus investment, running costs and labor.

PS: as stated earlier, I do NOT recommend any hybrid systems (as sprayer nozzles combined with NFT channels proposed/planned earlier by Mike) as it is even less cost effective and it needs even more maintenance and care. While it could be handled with a small scale "prototype", liability and maintenance would become a real issue at a larger scale.

Lucas,

Actually, I abandoned the misters and instead drilled very small holes in the PVC. This allows water to spray the rockwool cubes before the roots grow long enough to come in contact with the nutrient flow. Once the roots start growing, the nuit runs down them and returns to the bucket where it is constantly aerated and recycled. In case of a pump failure or electrical outage, I can close off the return valve and have basically a DWC system but without constant aeration.

It seems to be working so far.

Mike

lucas,

Where do you come off deciding that there is "no such thing as a "common" 1 minute go and 4 minute stop interval." Can you tell me who put you in charge of what does or does not exist? From my understanding I do agree that they do mostly run 24/7 (except at night), but I don't know every NFT system in the world, and I make no clam as the overall judge and ruler of hydroponics. So before you ask me for my proof, where's yours (you made the decision). Personally I can see benefits of on/off cycles in NFT systems (especially for larger plants).

Next I'm not a fan of NFT systems, but I do understand there place and when they can be cost effective. "Cost Effective" is a relative term. It all depends on what you can get (price wise) and what you plan to grow (compared to other ways). Just because things are expensive where you live, does not mean that they are expensive everywhere else in the entire world. There's labor involved with EVERY SYSTEM and/or DESIGN, or do you have birds trained to drop seeds in the right spot?. As well as harvest it etc.?

And just who decided that you had to use "The "real" channels/gutters as they are commonly used by commercial growers" anyway? I (and I'm sure many others) can decide for myself what works best. It's not about the plastic, it's about the technique/design. Most people on the planet have the imagination and ingenuity to build their own systems from what is locally available to fit their needs. I personally will never buy a hydroponic system from a box, there to easy to build much cheaper (if your not lazy). But even if you are lazy, they can still turn a profit.

P.S. Personally any system I build, I always do consider maintenance as a major factor in/of the design.

Looks like you're a bit bored homehydro and once again just pulling "something" to look smart. If your run to the college is a bit long and the posts at Gardenweb aren't what you expect or worth the fuel (or the calories), why don't you take an out time for a week?

There is indeed no such thing, as a COMMON 1/4 minutes off-on time for NFT systems - you actually only confirm it by saying >>From my understanding I do agree that they do mostly run 24/7".Or what part of the meaning of "common" didn't you understand in this context? No need to be in charge, as I just state the absolutely obvious. Which you did in fact confirm! Btw: depending on night temps, (because of the slope and the open end of the outlet they absolutely HAVE to run at night as well to avoid the channels from drying and plants from dying!

The meaning of "cost effectiveness" and the relative part in this very context was largely explained already by me earlier. Here also, you are just kind of bending and repeating the obvious one more time. There was a CLAIM that NFT is preferably used by commercial growers because it is supposed to be cost effective. I simply said that it is NOT particularly cost effective compared to other systems for a number of reasons. And, that the reasons for the preference of NFT systems are of a completely different nature. I didn't make any claim, I did merely bust another myth ;-)

As for the "real NFT channels": here you really talk like someone who hasn't ever used any NFT system and hence can't tell the difference by experience. And yes, obviously anyone can and will decide for themselves ( I didn't say otherwise, or did I?), what they use at the end. But how would anyone take the right decision if they don't even know (nor believe) nor have ever seen or experienced the difference when it comes to "real" grooved channels and what crops they produce compared to "tubes"!?

Who was it again who actually firstly made the distinction between NFT and NST, as in nutrient stream technology for the PVC tubes? An absolutely justified epistomological and technical distinction, congrats on that-on - whom ever it may concern.

People anyway just believe what they want to hear and what fits nicely in their preconception(s)... don't they?! I don't even dream of changing that part of the human nature ;-)

"Being in charge"?! - are you freakin' kidding me? - LOL

lucas
I haven't needed to go to the collage to use the computers for weeks.

This is just to funny not to respond to. COMMON is COMMON. Is common knowledge what you know, or what I know? And I didn't confirm anything. How does saying that that is not my knowledge, in any way suggest that nobody anywhere in the world does anything different than you? By that definition If I haven't herd of it, then it does not exist (like you) and my word is law. How do you like that my word is law?

"There was a CLAIM that NFT is preferably used by commercial growers because it is supposed to be cost effective"

Yes, that's TRUE IN THIS COUNTRY depending on the crop, perhaps not in third world country's that you may be familiar with. THERE WAS NO CROP MENTIONED IN THAT STATEMENT. Just what is a "cost effective" NFT channel cost (in your opinion)?. COST EFFECTIVE is relative (as I enplaned earlier), and determined by the price of what you can get in your local area (shipped in), and compared to what it can/will produce. Just because you have preconceived ideas that nothing else is good enough unless you thought of it, is simply your problem.

" I simply said that it is NOT particularly cost effective compared to other systems for a number of reasons."

No This is what you said:
"There is not much that I'd call cost effective with those. The "real" channels/gutters as they are commonly used by commercial growers are relatively expensive."

Making such a statement without any figures is useless and opens the door for debate. Also who ever said all you can use is commercially made NFT channels (you)? You don't have any idea what I would use, how I would build it etc.. Perhaps all you can get in your country is TUBES but not here. And yes the COMMERCIALLY made NFT channels with the congregated bottoms are the prototype of my designs.

"People anyway just believe what they want to hear and what fits nicely in their preconception(s)... don't they?"

I couldn't have said it better, that's you in a nutshell. Perhaps you could open your mind as to what the rest of the world is doing?

"Being in charge"?! - are you freakin' kidding me?"
Your not in charge HERE. Well I guess if others want to let you be they can, but that wont happen with me. Your so oblivious to your demanding nature you don't even realize it. I have no problem letting you know about it though.

A 1/4 minute on/off for NFT is uncommon, and that makes the 24/7 the common strategy, nothing more to say about that. It has nothing to do with a personal view or what may be my preference. These are comprehensible and verifiable facts.

Independent of the country or continent,"real" NFT channels are never cheap - which is most probably the main reason why they are not exactly widely used and not very popular with "amateurs". Specific crops play a role in "cost effectiveness" with any hydroponic production - it goes without saying that this point was merely mentioned in a global context (yet implying that the choice of an NFT setup is part of it and that it also matters with them).
Anyway, my statement remains the same, as there is still nothing with NFT setups or this technology in particular that I can relate to actual cost effectiveness or would foresee as resulting in the later. Wait, there is one thing that should be mentioned for the sake of clarity: space requirement versus yield is generally better with NFT than with most other systems. That's a fair point (that hasn't been mentioned) I guess.

In case you need figures about the cost of NFT, - please make your own enquiry as it all depend on location (transport) and precise requirements (frames, infrastructure, electronic controls, even crop choice, et. I am not promoting nor do I disrecommend my very own disrecommendation. LOL. No seriously: I am not claiming anything and even try my best to not be biased in this matter. I am merely providing pragmatical details that may be overseen, all based on professional experience.

Also, you do not seem to figure out what I said about "being in charge" or what I meant about my very personal point of view (or position) in this matter. As I said, I am truly and merely trying to be objective and purely informative. If the provided and thoroughly selected information doesn't fit someone's concept, (or if you can't per se let go the personal animosity you have build up against me) - that's not exactly my problem. Let it go for you own good son. I mean, you really seem to miss the essentials and fill the gaps with alleged disagreement instead. Either that. - or you are incredibly slow. And I truly hope for you that it's the animosity thing that prevents you from actual cognition! ;-)

FWIW,

My system will not be fancy or expensive, not including the lights. 60' of 1/4" PVC, 5 4x8' 3/8" particle board sheets, 16 8' 1x2" boards (or skip all the lumber and use the boards, etc., I have laying around here. I have a used swimming pool liner I can cover the insides with. Pick up 30 3" net pots and a bag of lava rock.

It might not when any awards for aesthetics but I'm more into substance over style!

Mike

@wordwiz
I guess there is nothing wrong with going 'economical' or even low budget with any setup, I care about that part myself for my own setups (compared to some customer requirements). Also. I am using both, not exactly cheap an/or free media (coco chips, rice hulls, gravel/sand). Anyway, commercial growers generally put substance over style as well (as style does indeed yield no profit in a classical scenario), but stick with durability and most importantly low maintenance and "eaz to clean and operate".

You haven't ever reacted/replied to what I pointed out about your "hybrid idea" as in sprayer nozzles combined with NFT (or NST) that may become a maintenance/reliability issue as described. Are you still convinced this part will be totally hassle free and the best option/choice? What about the needed pressure (indeed much higher even with low pressure nozzles -compared to standard NFT) you would need for larger scale? Have you ever seen such hybrid system in action (or heard of it) in any larger scale or commercial farming setup? I am not saying that it is not suited for the purpose just because it is not used by others (in case), - but merely pointing out that such fact should be taken into account and allowed for a possible issue.

lucas,
"These are comprehensible and verifiable facts."

Until you verify it by REAL means and not just because YOU say so, they are not FACTS (GET IT). You stated "there was no such thing" those are the words and that turns your statement into a "I know everything statement" like as if you know what's common everywhere in the world (GET IT). What's common in your neck of the world may not be the case elsewhere (GET IT). By stating it that way you come off sounding like you know what everyone else in the world does (GET IT).

You could have easily said "from my knowledge" and leaving out the "there is no no such thing as" prier to your statement and that would have not been a problem. Or easily saying "there is no no such thing as a common 1 min on and 4 off from my knowledge. But your statement as you stated it projects that you think you are the authority in what everyone else does. That's the problem/difference (GET IT YET). There's no problem putting in your two cents, except for the way you word things the like you do (GET IT YET).

Problem is, the person that has the bad breath never even knows it because they are just so used to it. Not saying that you have bad breath (I can't smell it from here). Just that you are so used to thinking you are an authority in anything hydroponics, and what others are allowed to do, that you don't realize that's how it sounds. Also there are so many people that are afraid to say something (trying to be the nice guy), that just lets the problem go on longer and makes it worse in the long run.

If people don't tell you that you have bad breath, and you don't know, then how can you fix it (that's if you want to). But I'm not afraid to be the bad guy if I need to be. And I believe in being up front and cutting the problem out from the source before it can affect more. That's my problem with you (as I mentioned a long time ago), and of coarse you just don't care. So why should I?

Look homehydro, any of what I said (until proven wrong) will not turn into a fallacy or become invaid either, just because you don't agree for some reason, or you aren't accepting it. Neither because you don't see the logic or sense behind it (yet). And as much as you wish to devaluate it and take advantage in such way, - this will simply not happen. Simply because no matter how hard you try to attack the persons, the arguments and knowledge they transmit still keep the same and remain what they are. As I said earlier: prove my bunch of points, hint's, recommendations and tips individually wrong with good and plausible arguments instead of such rhetoric manoeuvres when you try to discredit my person - and I'll think about it. Such ad hominem back stabbing is truly old school and too transparent.

Your example with the bad breath terribly sucks, - as most "Two-Mules-for-Sister-Sara-Analogies" do. Bad breath is indeed a bad analogy to a persons attitude, as it is something embarrassing for all and hence something that is perceived unambiguously as unpleasant by anyone, (except perhaps by people with some rhinaesthesia disorders or a severe flue). One or another person's way of expression, their style or even their attitude is something very different. Any person (either perceived as rather likeable or unsympathetic by one individual) is always perceived differently by some others, more or less involved or more or less concerned or biased. And this (piece of luck for some - and yet incomprehensible factor for others) is generally called human subjectivity. In some case or another, now and then, you may effectively find a number of "partisans" that instantly agree with you on certain subjects (and would instantly say: how true, what an impertinent Dick! Or any other rude expression of your choice that may of course alternate with something really nice to say about a person, depending on occasion) - but be sure that there always will be some persons around (you bet there will be) that will not agree at all with the momentary credo! How comes? Well the reverse logic may at least explain it partially, - as even the ones who seem to be true "everybody's Darlings" or "decent and valuable persons" if you prefer, are surely disliked, hated, envied or simply ignored by some as well. So who is wrong and who is right, - is there anyone who is even close? Or is it advisable to join the mainstream, act opportunistically, join the majority, as in "millions of flies can't be wrong - eat crap!" Bad breath guarantied indeed! LOL

Bad breath is always smelling bad for everyone with a healthy nose, while individuals are always perceived subjectively and hence differently. Even if you are convinced of being capable of clearly perceiving different persons objectively and think you know "what they are", - it is just and always an itchy illusion. It's only your biased impression that finally makes the difference and is somehow making you reflect judgmentally at the end. Hence there is no objective nor educational value in giving your opinion here, as it is not worth much in "the wast sea of subjective and biased opinions" at the end. Go and air yourself as a Hero, a Fool or a Saint (or whatever), and yet be perceived very differently by different observers (eyes of beholders) and most certainly very differently compared to how you see yourself. Politicians or Comedians or even so called average people who act in public in some way or another, are the perfect example for this phenomena. Pick anyone, they are one by one loved by some and hated by others (ignored by some as well if nothing gets triggered) and in fact never (or rarely) seen as what they are nor what they actually think of themselves.

But when you take the time to talk so thoroughly about tone and authoritarian behavior (of mine), - I wish I could get the secret trust of how various individuals perceive your tone and attitude compared to mine. Subjectively for sure and indeed individually but certainly interesting I bet. You gave your opinion and here you get mine: to me you truly sound like the upset sergeant of guard who is taking heart, - but clearly breaching his limited privileges. I mean, are you actually aware of your own tone and attitude in your last post? How many times did you use "get it?" in capital letters - and what is that tone supposed to express? Is that your elucidatory example of what I am apparently lacking in communication skills, appropriate attitude and tone? Is that how you express your own moderateness and how you are showing me the finesse of keeping a low profile? Is that your way of mediating a more appropriate and less arrogant way than mine? Well, in that case, I warmly recommend you to firstly take a deep breath and after that a good and introspective look at yourself, before you even think of pointing any finger at others.

Take care ;-)
Lucas

Lucas,

I'm not using nozzles - instead just very small holes so I get a nice spray of water.

Mike

OK, mike got it. Even if I can't picture it in detail, it seems that such solution would indeed be more practical and hassle free and less of a concern - even if used for large scale. But what about the effectiveness and growing rate - what are your tests and experiences telling you so far about the effectiveness and actual "performance" of such solution? You wouldn't switch for the classic NFTs, feed by two micro tubes at one end and open at the other for a reason, wouldn't you? ;-)

One more thing for the record, regarding homehydro's multiple concerns about my suggestion and specifically about possible "country and location sensitive" aspects.

Well, I went through them all to make sure there wasn't anything that I may have said or suggested that could create any kind of confusion in such context. I can only confirm that there is nothing that is particularly country specific, except for recognizable (apparently not for all) relative aspects that were left open for a reason. Unless the laws of gravity and the Space-Time Continuum are different in various parts of the world or a pole shifting is to be expected soon, all should actually be independent on location ;-)

And even if at some places the local currency is either USD, AK-47s versus M16s, raw diamonds, fur, opium or Shell Money, economics are always the same: income minus expenses equals profit. Isn't that so in Arizona too, homehydro? ;-)

As a consultant, co-designer of a local factory and developer-builder of commercial NFT setups I have recently done quite some research about availability and prices for NFT channels and supply on an international basis. Prices and transportation costs (especially if dealing with lengths over 15 feet, are nowhere exactly cheap although prices vary widely. They indeed vary that much that it seems pointless to tell any figures in this context. Google is anyone's friend...

In fact, due to my connection to a local factory (Bangkok) I luckily have access to channels at cheaper prices than I could find anywhere else all over the globe. I didn't come up with this earlier as it is indeed good for me but not necessarily of interest for others, - in this case indeed mainly because of the location.

There are certainly some other climate related and country specific details around the topic of NFT, like nutrient composition and concentration, or a few others - but in fact I was aware of not mixing these up with general and location unspecific aspects. I may have overseen something or not being fully aware of some details, though. In case of doubt or uncertainty (or if suffering from compulsive arguing disorder) about specific points, anyone is welcome to comment or ask about it.

Lucas,

The new plants, the ones that were barely large enough to have their top leaves even with the top of 3" net pots (sitting in 1" square rockwool!) are looking decent. Not great, not bad.

A very general rule of thumb is that it requires about 1300 Growing Degree Days for the first "regular" blooms to form - not including the one or two that can appear after six week old seedlings. That would mean I should start seeing them about November 5-6-7.

As far as fine-tuning the growing tubes, I will. The bottom of the net pots are a foot from the PVC - the next time they will be no more than 8" maybe less.

Mike

Mike, you (knowingly or not) bring up two crucial factors:

1. general condition and "thumb rules" for time until maturity
2. seedling development which is linked to nursing

1. Maturing time in a specific climate and under certain general conditions (especially with long time crops) is something you can't fully control nor manipulate, even with the most sophisticated and most performant system there are limits to it. Also, under most growing conditions differences between systems are probably less determining as it may seem. Well you can always play this card and accelerate to some extend of course, but you need to invest accordingly. Which makes your "cost effectiveness" become a different story. Most importantly in this context: it may indeed be wiser to keep your hardware simple and low cost, as soon as you realize that you can hardly trick existing conditions anyway. In other words, even if you invest only in basic infrastructure like greenhouse ventilation (basic air conditioning), low cost nutrient cooling, etc, your venture still has to deliver accordingly.

2. Seedling development is literally vital. You can recognize the winners at the starting line as they say. Seeding and nursing is where you wouldn't compromise and have to nail it. Here you really have to get "good at" and use the best available in every sense of the term. A good start and perfectly looking seedlings will really make the difference, no matter the system or the climate. On top of that, with long time crops, the difference between perfect and healthy seedlings and "decent, not good not bad (to use your own terms) can easily be 1-2 weeks or more.

I understand your point in growing from seed in your system (If I got right what you do) as it not only seems more pragmatical and time saving, less labor intensive, etc. But I told you earlier that I recommend to do separate nursing for a reason. I even recommend to test different media and methods, to be sure to get your plants the perfect start. Think about it ;-)

Look homehydro, any of what I said (until proven wrong) will not turn into a fallacy or become invaid either, just because you don't agree for some reason, or you aren't accepting it. Neither because you don't see the logic or sense behind it (yet).

lucas,
I have not read your entire post, only the beginnings of a couple of paragraphs, it was just too stupid to bother with. I'm not sure if you are just to dense to understand what my points were, or if you don't see the logic or sense behind it, or if you are purposely ignoring it. Bottom line you still think just because you say something, that simply makes it a fact. I never thought someone as arrogant as you would ever be able to understand that that's not what makes something a fact. Well just remember that. From now on I will take the same attitude, so EVERYTHING I Say will be FACT ALSO.

And the analogy is a very good example. Well not to you because you are not capable of seeing the point. And you still wont be able to get it, but it's not about the bad breath or any embarrassing thing, it's about only being able to fix a problem if you can recognize it. You simply don't recognize any problem because you just want to continue to think your perfect.

You're always welcome to keep them coming Jeff, - even imitating my monkey business and shenanigans ;-)

Lucas,

I admit, there are things I don't know that I don't even think about needing to know but I do try to study every aspect that I think (or know) can make a difference. That's (plus experience) has taught me there is a relationship between plant age, Daily Light Integral and Growing Degree Days. For instance, to produce a very healthy seedling, one provides sufficient light, the correct blend of nuits and lower temps. But do that for too long, so that by the age of 50 days, it has only accumulated 600 GDD and basically the tom's fertility period will expire and it will never produce more than a couple of blooms. Ditto if the DLI and GDD are high but the plant's age is young. It will form several blooms when it is only 1/2 on its way to maturity, but then nothing after that.

But that does not mean these things cannot be controlled, quantified and documented. The largest indoor tomato grower in the world, EuroFresh, can tell you to the day when their tomato plants will have fruit ready to pick. Not every plant, there will always be those that are a bit ahead or behind the average, but the vast majority. For greenhouses that cover acres, they are amazing. 100 percent climate controlled - temperature, humidity, ppm of Carbon Dioxide - they even developed their own hybrid for their conditions. But they produce 200 million pounds of maters in a year! They can invest in the equipment and controls so that at 11 pm they can regulate the temperature, humidity and CO2 levels, then adjust it at midnight, 7 am, noon, whenever.

I don't see my ever coming close to this level but I can see how the knowledge they have can help.

Mike

Mike,

I am trying to follow your way of treating the subject technically and how you intend to improve the growing habit of tomato plants accordingly.

First of all: are you sure that you are on the right track with trying to improve your OWN production in such theoretical way (light hours versus average temps equals perfect yield for example). In other words, will you actually be able to control these variables to the same degree and extend as you analyze and comprehend them theoretically? If not, don't let them get to yourself. I'd mainly focus on what you actually will be able to fully control, accomplish and furnish instead.

Your example with EuroFresh is indeed impressive, but is it (completely free of envy;-) your cup of tea or mine - and/or even remotely in our reach? Will a micro brewer be impressed with a Heineken plant and the way they brew, bottle and ship millions of gallons of consumer pils around a continent? Yes, most probably and somehow. But will they try to imitate them, - or let's more like say: what can they actually use and learn from their manufacturing methods and processing system? Maybe something, maybe not much at the end...I know, every analogy sucks because you can't compare things directly, hence no direct comparison- just used as a way of illustration. Also, why not have a closer look at enterprises that are (perhaps less impressive, but) closer to your own purposes. Wouldn't they serve better as a more realistic role model?

One more thing: any big enterprise has grown over the years (decades or even centuries) into what it actually is. The secrets of success lay partially open: many expert brains were at work over a long period of time, sometimes over generations, to work it all out. Some of it will always remain partially hidden for an average person. Some of the success is even an "unknown unknown", for the operators and/or the owners themselves, - to use one of Dick Cheney's expressions. Although most of what has been accomplished, is the merit (of many) and actually repeated through a "bullish" system afterwards. At the end, you can't have nor use any part of what is in fact a gear in a particular gearbox that will not fit in any other.

Only retain the important part; once found a system, a technology, a so called complete method that works fine, reliable and robust - don't change anything and stop experimenting, just repeat it "bone-headed" ;-) That's actually the most important and universal lesson to learn from any successful enterprise. How to get there, that's no girls' sport and a challenge for everyone.

But back to growing tomatoes!

1. You pointed out that EuroFresh has even developed their own F1 (hybrid) for their specific growing conditions.
Indeed, the whole process actually starts with the right choice of a variety and right genetics. Every variety has a particular growing habit indeed, and as you can't breed your own, you have to test a bunch of varieties, ranging from high yield F1 to Heirloom.

2. Back to seedlings and nursing. I pointed this part out, not only because it is vital - but also because here (at the beginning of the process and still operating at relatively small scale and space) you can much easier afford the perfect (or professional) setup and environment. And as you have already noticed: growing quickly and high is not necessarily good enough.

3. No matter the means, your technique and equipment - you usually want your tomato plants to be as productive as possible. And this essentially means a growing habit that has strong (yet not too thick) stems, compact (ideal) plant size and most importantly a SHORT distance between large clusters. This is what actually determines the yield. Well there may be some specific varieties who will not fit in here and will anyway have a very different growing habit, no matter how and under what conditions you grow them. Bottom line, you have to chose a variety that will have a growing habit that is close to the described model, if you want high yield.

4. Nutrition and nutrients: fortunately there are known and reliable formulas for tomato available. In a nutshell, I'd stick with low Nitrogen and high Potassium formulas. Although more like an open book, it still is a topic of it's own and related to climate and conditions. You can't avoid personal experiments and acquiring your own experience here. But don't try to reinvent the wheel with a tomato formula ;-)

5. Infrastructure and control:
First of all, this part is not exactly my field of expertise - but I would be careful with any investment and avoid to do things by halves. Either do it by the book (as in a tried and tested complete solution) or keep it spartan and low cost. If you do it by half, you may fail half way and regret any cent you have spend.

6. If producing commercially (even in smaller and medium scale) you can't afford any losses from pest and diseases. This is one of the most underestimated factors by "beginners". Commercial producers do not invest a little fortune in pest control for fun or intend to poison the consumers, - but because it's truly a make-or-break factor.

7. What is needed to be successful is a complete method, a set made of interdependent parts and pieces, where every bit has to fit in to make it work smoothly and perform. Treat them separately, but never forget where they inter-depend and interact.

Cheers,
Lucas

Lucas,

>> First of all: are you sure that you are on the right track with trying to improve your OWN production in such theoretical way (light hours versus average temps equals perfect yield for example). In other words, will you actually be able to control these variables to the same degree and extend as you analyze and comprehend them theoretically? If not, don't let them get to yourself. I'd mainly focus on what you actually will be able to fully control, accomplish and furnish instead. No, there is no way I can, at least not at my economy of scale. But knowing the target gives me a range to shoot for, like a specific star in the sky rather than some star in a galaxy. If I should have lighting air temps at 75 for optimal growth, then I shoot for that but don't sweat it if the highs get into the mid-80s. This is not a problem since my basement is semi-climate controlled. Ditto for no-light temps in the 65 degree range. If I need to add humidity, I have a humidifier and if there is not enough CO2 I have a bucket and can buy sugar and yeast to go with the water.

>> Your example with EuroFresh is indeed impressive,... One of the most valuable things I learned in high school came from a PE class. The teacher asked us if we had ever heard the phrase "Practice makes perfect." Of course, even living in the sticks, we had. Then he asked if we agreed; everyone then. Then he told us we all flunked that day's test. Practice does not make perfect - perfect practice makes perfect. I can practice something 24/7/365 but if something I'm doing is flawed, I'm not going to "improve" but just become more efficient at doing something the wrong way. My goal is to learn the "perfect" way of growing tomatoes hydroponically - every aspect of it - then try my best to adapt those practices to my limitations. The goal is always to maximize production and quality of any given widget while minimizing costs.

>> paraphrase: starting seeds and varieties This is one area I am still learning. My first sales position we had a manager who stressed the key to success: plan your work then work your plan.

My plan is to be growing tomatoes and other veggies for a living starting in 2013. That gives me this winter and all of next year to experiment with different varieties, growing regimens, lighting, climate control, etc. I know that now, without contacting another person or business, I can sell 100 pounds of tomatoes per week at $1.50/lb. this winter. And I would wager that if I was to approach a local building, one that houses the police and fire departments as well as City Hall, I could see doubling that with one stop per week. In fact, that might make a great "truck route." Or wait, even better - take a lesson from the Mr. Softee Ice Cream trucks. Drive a different route each day of the week and allow people to buy fresh tomatoes (and if the operation was large enough) green beans, lettuce, cucumbers, Swiss Chard, onions, basil, etc.

As Billy Joel sang:

"You may be right, I may be crazy."

Mike

Hi Mike,

>>This is not a problem since my basement is semi-climate controlled. Having specific and particular conditions, you certainly have some advantages anyone can't anticipate, on the other hand you are obviously on your own concerning a number of things.

It's quite a common practice to quote and occasionally "summon" one's former teachers and masters in such way, isn't it? ;-) Well, my Yoga teacher once put it that way: one gram of practice is worth one ton of theory. And even people who aren't exactly familiar with metric system, should get the point. But then again, even the quotes of the greatest masters and-, either recognized or self-professed geniuses may not always apply everywhere. As a theoretical physicist or a Nano-architect may not necessarily agree with the above concerning particle physics and nano-technology ;-)

The same teacher asked us once what the meaning of life was. And his answer was "perfection". What once impressed me, - isn't exactly my conviction today. I don't think anymore that perfection is the meaning of life. In fact what I believe today is that the human hunt for perfection is what actually may bring them to extinction sooner or later. As far as I am concerned, I am good with constant improvement and the acceptance of a number of imperfections - about myself and whom or whatever it may concern. I'm indeed fine with being just good at something.

Some people also use to claim that nature is perfect. I don't see nature that way at all, as nature doesn't have any concept of perfection. Even from a "human perspective" nature doesn't even remotely look like reaching some degree of perfection. To me it looks much more like merely being about survival in a chaotic, vicious, violent and unpredictable environment. Even the beauty of it is relative to the human eye and without exception ephemeral. And even on a time scale of billions of years it ultimately implies numerous "inevitable imperfections" that lead to destruction and tremendous losses. A single meteorite of a certain size (aren't those part of nature?), may destroy it all and extinct us in seconds and literally make it all turn belly-up.

Concerning theory versus practice, there is one more important aspect to consider: students (or amateurs) typically learn from practice (experiments as in trial and error) while scientists and researchers don't exactly follow this procedure or chronology. From a certain degree of knowledge it's indeed more indicated and smarter to evaluate and/or work out something in theory in the first place. Only when fully theoretically consistent and plausible, you test and confirm it through practical experiments. And only eventually evaluate the results in field tests.

I truly like the idea of the "veggie-truck" - Because in Europe, as in Germany, France and Benelux they run "groceries trucks". They also carry fresh vegetables and tour country sides that have been "spared" from "around the corner" Markets and Malls very successfully since a while.

>>Billy J: "You may be right, I may be crazy."I don't trust any singer's lyrics - LOL

Well, in Thai Language there is a popular rock song that goes "phom Baa, thae mai soehboeh!" - "I am (might be) crazy but I'm not stupid"!

There is another frequently used phrase in that idiom, that simply translates as "good for you - and good for me", which obviously is synonym with a "win-win" (situation). But it also has variations, as in "good for you but not good for me"... and a few others that anyone can figure out from there, - of course. ;-)

Cheers,
Lucas

Those of us that "think" they know everything, sure do make things difficult for those of us that actually do.

What kind of queer logic is that hardclay? From my end I would assume that for those people who actually and really know, - things would be clear as daylight, unambiguous and obvious. Hence, how could someone who just "thinks" he/she knows, possibly make things difficult for such people? I really don't see it!

As long as something can be made truly difficult- or if it can be jeopardized for those who are supposed to "actually know", it's obviously not without ambiguity - and the boot is on the other foot. Have you ever seen one like that? LOL

The real Fools, are obviously those who don't ever realize that they went gonzo. And there they are! LOL