It seems to me that this degree of symmetry and regularity are out of place in a Jgarden. I would not like it at all. Nature seems to favor irregularity. I believe the Jgarden experience is recreating what the elements have wrought - in your controlled space. I could be wrong, but I'm content with that idea.
Dave

I don't mind it at all, quite frankly. However, I'm not sure how well it abides with the rules. It's very very similar to the raked cones you mentioned. A plus to this is that it doesn't require raking, although it probably took quite a long time to... "construct."

-Audric

O.K., Audric, what do you think of this? -

Click for more cones

Um, if it were representative of Mount Fuji, wouldn't it need to have the very top of the cone leveled off?
And, as Audric pointed out, pointy things are not generally called for in J. gardens.

The "stone cone" sort of reminds me of a dimly remembered something that was Asian but not Japanese: maybe some kind of stupas(?) in Cambodia(?)

(I can't help thinking that if the very top were leveled off to provide a flat circle 1-2 ft in diameter, it'd be a huge hit in a children's playground:)

- Evelyn

It is fine in someone elses garden but I would never put it in mine. To me the ideal garden must look natural with harmony and balance. When rocks look like they don't belong or don't fit in the area they are interesting but not asthetic.

Interesting picture, Herb. Such metallic cones (as they appear to be in the pic) would be out of place in a traditional Japanese garden. However, there are some "modern" Japanese gardens that I've seen (as in the trees, stones, rivers, etc. are made of metal) and those cones wouldn't be out of place at all in such a "garden."

-Audric

Audric,

I'm beginning to think that if we should divide Japanese gardens into two entirely distinct categories - what I'd call real gardens on the one hand, and one the other those Zen things - flat, walled-in, plantless, raked gravel areas (like the one in the second picture) that for some reason are also called 'gardens'. I recognise that the latter are an art form in their own right: perhaps they lend themselves to novel ideas more than do real gardens?

I suppose the stone cone in the first picture is what might be called avant garde but I certainly wouldn't want it in my garden.

A little while ago, Edzard suggested the idea of using plastic and metal "rocks" in the 'Avant Garden'. Yesterday, I was astonished to hear that the Athens Olympics Comittee had done just that, in the artificial stream constructed for the Whitewater Kayak course. Blue and green plastic "rocks" were used to provde lego-like flexibilty in re-configuring the course for different races. Although the image at the link below indicates that aesthetics were (rightly enough) not the primary consideration of the course design :), it is an interesting thought.

Who knew Edzard was so prescient?

:) Evelyn

PS. "Home" on the image linked below gets you thumbnails leading to other images of the course.

Here is a link that might be useful: Blue plastic rocks at the Olympics

This after all the discussion we've just had about "spirit" or feeling in a garden! The stone cone makes me uncomfortable to the point of antsy -- like I'm going to bump out a stone toward the bottom with my shopping cart, and the whole shamoozle is going to come rolling down. Definitely doesn't make for "tranquil" or "restful" or "evocative of thoughts of beautiful natural scenery" for me!

Susan

Herb- I just realised I missed the original question.... and my answer to it is no, I wouldn't want in my garden.

-Audric

Herb,
Today I ordered a tandem of so called pit-run for my driveway (approx. 13 cubic yards).
So, after the trucker dumps his load and takes off, by the time I get home, I am going to have something like "IT" in my garden, whether I want it or not... he,he.

Liviu.

I think the gravel cones are more correct. Since the gravel is fine and small it represents the elements which make up the mountain. The large stone cone is out of scale for humans, simply too large.

Interesting, but I do not care for it.

It is confusing to judge either of Herbs pictures outside of their context. The basalt cone is part of a garden in Paris that was meant to provide a link between different cultures. It was a philanthropic gesture as was the whole garden which is not all 'Japanese'. It seems that the model was the sand cones at Ginkakaji and as these cones are more closely related to sea-side sand castles then anything remotely 'zen' then I think the designer did a good job. The new version is equally as tacky as its inspiration.
The other, computer generated cones, could function as an object within a meditation practice in exactly the same way as rocks.
The problem, as I see it, is in the way the dots are automatically connected. Sand...rake...Zen...sand...rake...rock...Zen. Plant...flower...garden...green...nature...garden.

I found the rock cone to be quite interesting although it might have been better as a rock pyramid so as not to leave the new agers out:) It certainly gives a good surface to start moss and lichens on for use elsewhere.

Inky, I think I'm going to have to take issue with your description of the sand cone at Ginkakuji as "tacky" and closely related to seaside sand castles, although you seem to be right in describing them as having little to do with Zen.

[Disclaimer: the following is based on what I, a Westerner, have read in various sources in English, and probably reflects the inaccuracies and misunderstandings endemic to studying any subject at such a remove.]

If I understand this correctly, the truncated sand cone at Ginkakuji (known officially as the Moon-Reflecting Mound) has a specific purpose - it is only in the cone configuration when the Emperor in not in the garden. When an Imperial visit is scheduled, the sand is raked out flat for the Emperor to walk upon. Some Shinto ceremonies are associated with this (the job of being Emperor of Japan seems to include a great deal of performing Shinto ceremonies). A few other gardens, including Daisen-en, use pairs of pointed cones of white sand, and I have read that those in Shinto shrines are periodically raked out flat in order for certain ceremonies to take place on them.

In between ceremonies or Imperial visits, the sand is raked together to keep it from being walked on by those less venerated and on less lofty pursuits. The Japanese tendency towards tidiness and order is based in Shinto ideals of purity - it seems almost blasphemous to say that cleanliness could be so far dissociated as to be merely "next to" Shinto Godliness.
(This evocation of purity is also why *white* sand is used.)

I dont know why a cone particularly, except, as Liviu has noted, what other shape are you going to rake a sand pile into? [Since the natural angle of repose of sand and molten lava are not that different, a sand cone will resemble a volcanic cone.]

Note that, while the ceremonies are religious, they are Shinto rather than Zen Buddhist. These two different religions co-exist, and are practiced side-by-side by the majority of the Japanese population, but are essentially quite different in nature. For example, the Emperor of Japan perhaps can be viewed as being to Shinto what the Pope is to Roman Catholicism, or possibly even what the Prophet Mohammed is to Islam (Until 1946,the Emperor was officially considered divine, the Japanese title "Tenno" translating better perhaps as "Godking" than "Emperor". In the aftermath of WWII, official divinity was dropped, leaving the matter for each individual to decide for himself).
But, as I understand it, to Buddhism His Imperial Majesty Akihito is no more or less than another soul rolling the great wheel of reincarnation along the path to enlightenment, not entirely unlike you or me.

Thus, as a non-Shintoist, I would consider it not my place to determine whether GinkakujiÂs Moon-Reflecting Mound is "tacky". Neither would I, as a non-Catholic, venture an opinion on whether the Popemobile should have tailfins or not; nor would I, as a non-Buddhist, comment on how often the Dalai Lama should shave his head :)

However, I feel perfectly free to judge whether I would want a similar (but non-sacred) sand cone in my garden (I wouldnÂt; it just doesnÂt do that much for me aesthetically). And IÂd probably feel just fine about deciding whether such a sand cone was "tacky" in your garden :)

But (at the dreadful risk of criticizing the etiquette of another poster on the forum) I donÂt really feel itÂs within my, or any other non Shintoist's, purview to make that judgment about GinkakujiÂs Moon-Reflecting Mound.

(I'm assuming that you're not Shinto, Inky. If you are, please ignore all of the above:)

- Evelyn

PS: Bambooo, I'd love to see how you'd make the square corners on a pyramid with those round cobblestones :)

Perhaps it was a bad choice of word Evelyn but it did send you off to verify some hither to misleading information. My point remains though as I feel the basalt cone was taking some unnecessary flak on the basis of its comparison to something not clear.

Thanks for not taking offense, Inky :) - And I'm glad you think I made things clearer :) :)

Oddly, looking again at the Paris basalt cone after having thumbed through a stack of J.Garden books for white sand cones, I like the basalt cone better than I did at first. In itself, it is elegant and nicely proportioned, and the round circles of rounded cobbles in soft gray nicely oppose the stark slicing angularity of the cone's shape.
I think the problem is its setting, with trees and fence at very close hand with barely enough room for SilverVista's shopping cart. The sand cones in Japanese gardens are all set in wide expanses of flat sand, at least ten times wider in some dimension than the cone is high (the Moon-Reflecting Mound is set in the "Silver Sea"). With a wide flat platform to support it, a cone can come as a welcome visual relief to the planarity of the 'sea' (perhaps playing the role of a rocky islet or a sea stack).

The Paris cone is what? 3 meters? high, so by this it would need to be set in a cobbled? gray gravel? swept earth? sea at least 30 m in one direction, and some nice golden section proportion in the other direction - 10 meters?

Crimony! If I had 10 x 30 m to work with, I could probably have a hill-and-pond stroll garden with an ornamental alabaster boat to float on the lake for my court musicians :)

- Evelyn

Herb,

Your second picture reminds me of the courtyard garden at Kamigamo Shrine with the two sand cones (tatesuna), and this is one of the oldest shrines in Kyoto, built in the late 7th century, about 700+ years before Ginkaku-ji and Daisen-in.

Liviu.

Liviu -

The similarity was entirely accidental. But I've just done a Google image search for 'Kamigamo Shrine' and I see what you mean.

Kamigano is one of the shrines I was thinking of.
I *think* that the way it works is that as Buddhist temple gardens developed and borrowed the sea-of-white-sand idea, the sand in temples lost its sacred and ceremonial significance and fulfilled only an aesthetic role. (Nomenclature note: shrines are Shinto, temples are Buddhist. Knowing this shorthand can help one keep track :)

(I'm probably going to ruin it for everyone by saying this, but...) I can never quite feel comfortable looking at the pairs of pointed cones, as I can't help being reminded of, well, Madonna's brassiere. (There - most of you would never have thought of that, but will now not be able to forget it when looking at these gardens.)
OTOH, it is possible that the male half of the constituency will not find this thought as annoying as I do :) and the aesthetic may even have some basis in Freudian suggestion(?).

pruriently,
- Evelyn

(crawling back up the face of the curb :)

Googling for "tatesuna" yielded one site in English, which seems to be part of a very-well-done school project on Japanese cultural heritage. Under "Kamigamo Shrine: Garden" it says:

"In front of the sanctuary of the Kamigamo Shrine are two sand cones. These are the original forms of the salt heaped up in front of Japanese houses to pure the atmosphere. The sand cones are called Tatesuna. Tatesuna is the place where god descends upon, and is in the shape of the Kami-yama (god) mountain. In the precinct, runs a stream from Nara, and the two sand cones give out a mysterious, pure atmosphere."

- Evelyn

[Note: Kamowake-ikazuchi is the diety of the shrine, Kamigamo is the location.]

Herb,
I realised that your "design" is accidentaly similar, and that's what made me write the post. There is a picture of the shrine's garden in "Space and Illusion in the Japanese Garden" by Teiji Itoh (plate 42), that looks more like your design.

Evelyn,
Your post was a wake up call. I was looking and looking at those cones and couldn't quite put my finger on... he, he

Liviu.