Does this thread really tell us anything useful or interesting about Japanese gardening?

Hi, Yama-san!

Weren't many of the first Buddhists in Japan priests who were Korean, or Chinese who had traveled to Japan by way of lengthy trip through Korea?

I think I remember that one of the first important stone-setters in Japanese gardening was Korean, too; or was he Eta? I understand that Koreans were traditionally not well-regarded in Japan, despite bringing several important arttitic traditions, such as those in pottery, to Japan.
Did that low status give them some common ground with the Eta?

What are the Korean influences on Japanese gardening that you are hoping to study?

thanks :)

- Evelyn

I'd be curious to know whether the temple has a garden, and if so, does the design give any hints of Buddhist influence? And, does any of it carry over to Japanese garden design?

Hi Yama Sensei

I look forward to hearing about your adventures!!!!!!

Michael

I lived in Korea for a time. It was a wonderful experience. I took every opportunity to travel and take in the culture. Temples are a central part of Korean history. I was amazed to find the cost of entry was very small, usually less than a dollar (US).

I discovered that Korean gardening and Japanese gardening hold some similar values. Elements such as lanterns, firures or even stones held places of importance in the gardens. The manner in which one would travel along a path through a garden to find new things revealed at each step or turn is similar. And there were many lovely specimen plants both in pots and in the ground.

I also found many beautiful gardens on the grounds of monasteries. Just outside of Seoul, I had the opportunity to lunch with the monks after touring their gardens.

One can also discover through the study of history that the Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans made their way about asia sharing culture. This is true of their gardens.

One last word about Korea. I had dinner at the house of a doctor. We sat upon the floor of his master bedroom turned to dining room. It was evening and cool outside. The windows were open and the floor heated. As we seated ourselves he brought in a potted night blooming Jasmine bonsai. It filled the room with its fragrance while we waited for the food to be served.

I spoke with Takeda Jun ( he just finished building a garden at the imperial palace (gosho)) at the International symposium about the relationship of Japan's gardens and other areas of origin. Korea was part of the discussion. He spoke of the movement of Buddhism and the arts from China through Korea and finally to Japan. One has to know where one came from, to know where one is. David

I think the more you know about any type of gardening, be it Chinese, Korean,
or English garden, the more it can help you in Japanese Gardening....
This does not mean you have to encorporate everything in your garden...
but it may have more awareness when you are creating Japanese garden..

I'm glad you shared that, Yama... so many things in Asian
cultures... is seldom seen here in the states... such as
the bowing... I don't know if most of us will ever get that
deep into Japanese gardening, but the an essence of that culture
present in such actions as bowing is surely missed...

..i.g. chozubachi are placed low to the ground so
you have to bow down, basically squatting to cleanse yourself;
entrance into the teahouse sometimes a very low door,
so you have to crouch to get in.... often requiring one to
remove weapons to pass through.... the examples may not be
presribed to all... but the action of the body does influence one's mind.
it all can have an affect on how you approach the garden..

michael

Mike,
I found the book you recommended.
Engel, David H.
"Japanese gardens for today" 1959

It is a great book.

Hi all
Evelyn:
Michinoko no takumi who is korian craftman made the first Japanese garden recorded in our history. prince Shotoku 's wife was korian. Horuji temple, Yakushiji temple, Asukaji temple( other namwe is Gankoji ) as well as chinese craftmen. first Sutra and statue of Buddha came to Japan
as gift from Korean king.
Korea is much closer to Japan than China. Craftmen of roof tile, carpenter, curver of Buddha , stone curvers are given to Japanes Empror as gift from Korean king.

about Eta
It is started by Tenji Empror 670, as kind of citzen registration syetem to tax. offcialy this discrimination system ended early Meiji piriod.

I thought "Taiko" drum is Japanese things, saw it in the korean temple I have visited. same shap as Japanse Taiko/drum.

chozubachi :
I saw internet information that oldest Korean temple had large chozubachi.

Korean temples and Korean history have many relation to Japanese garden and Japanese history, lot's more than average Jpaanese know about it.
mike

Hi Earthworm3.

I should write deffertnt way. I regreat.
leanning history of Korea and korean Buddhsim is help me to understand our cultuture ,Japanese garden history ,history of Japanese buddhism , art etc.
since I cannot read nor speak Korean, leaning korean buddhism is very defficut. if I make Korean friends who are willing to help me to understand Korean history, Korean Buddhism , I can learn quicker.
The temple I have attended has stone lantern , and "gorinto" which is the symbol of Buddhism. The stone lantern was not so good to me . It is not well balanced, craftman ship is okey but not excelent craftman ship. "Gorinto" was almost ferfect. exlent design, well ballanced, very good workman ship.

usefull ness of this posting is up to you. if you do not know well relationship between Japan and Korea, very begining two nations, you might think this post may not related to the topic.since I do not know you well, I cannot know myself where to start to explain. ....
mike

ps
I was overwelmed when members of the temple wellcomed me. how korean Govemrment teach in thire history text book relationship between Japan and korea, I wasn't so sure. I should go to Korean temple or not. I am happy to attend service at Korean temple now.

all, To add to what Mike has been saying....
It appears that there are two dates that suggest when buddhism was brought to Japan from Korea. The Nihon Shoki reports a date about 552 AD and the Gango ji Garan Engi Narabi ni Ruki Shizai Cho suggests 538AD, during the reign of Emperor Amekuni-oshiharuki-hironiwa (Kimmei). In any case, the King of Paekche, Syongmyong sent a statue of Siddhartha and a set of tirual vessels fro bathing the Buddha as well as a box of scrolls reounting the life of the Buddha. At this same time political concepts, arts, humanities, social sciences and natural sciences were imported. The movement of the continental culture from the mainland to Japan.
There was continued direct contact between the Paekche government and Kimmei's court, with accounts of priests from Korea in the years 554, 577 and 588. The priests being replaced every 3 to 6 years. To assist with the development of Buddism in Japan, the Paekche courts also sent Buddhist relics, nuns, painters, temple archtects, buddhist sculptor, tile maker, metal founder as well as priest to teach meditation, monastic law, and other esoteric skills.
David

Thanks, Mike-san!

Welcome back from the Symposium! I hope you had a pleasant time, and will tell us about some of what you learned and saw.

Didn't most of the Chinese cultural influnece on Japan have to travel there through Korea? Looking at the map, the Tsushima Straits look small compared to the open ocean between the Shan Dong(sp?) peninsula & Japan, and those seem to be the two most logical ways to get to Japan from China.

Here's a question for everyone:
When I try to understand this, I sometimes wonder if the realtionship between Korea and Japan has parallels to the relationship between France and Britain:
Culture travels from the continent largely through the country just across the straits/channel, resulting in the highest fashions in art,craft, clothing, decor, etc. often being Korean/French.
There's a similarity on the flip side too, in that familiarity breeds contempt, and proximity historically bred war, frequently between Korea and Japan, and seemingly incessantly between France and England. And I understand that the general social reputation of Koreans in Japan is not much better than that of the French in England.

There are dissimilarites, of course: there was never a Korean Conquerer taking the Japanese throne in 1066, and so there is no intermingled language as with Norman French and Anglo-Saxon, and none (or very, very little?) of the royal houses holding lands and alliances on both sides of the water which seem to be at the root of so many of the Anglo-French wars.

While I'm playing this game, I compare the role of classical China in Japan to that of Ancient Rome and Greece in England. Speaking Chinese/Latin & Greek was the trademark of the highly educated, art and architecture were widely copied and used for inspiration, certain classic Chinese poems (which I wish I could name:) might hold the same place in Japanese culture as the Iliad and the Odyssey. I've even read in a couple different places that Japanese people really like Chinese food (one Japanese-American author described it as being considered "the height of gourmandism".) And of the three finest restaurants here in Salem, two are Italian :)

So, how about it? Is this a useful idea, or am I way out in left field?

- Evelyn

Hi Evelyn and David
David :
Thank you for your help :):):). I have visited Korean temle.
when you vist to Atlanta next time, we go to the Korean temple togater.My new Thai friend go to Thai temple every sunday. I am planing to visit Thai temle as well.

Evelyn :
I could not go to Seattle. I have a new job. privet garden curently going to be open as public garden about 2 years fronm now. I am working on Japanese garden and other part of garden as well.

between Tsushi Island and Korea/pusan is closest to reach main land. while anceint people did not have compass and navigation skill, croseing Tushima strait/Korea strait was easyest way to reach to Chain. The Japanese Envoy to Sui Dynasty was go though Korea . it took 4 month or longer to reach to Chain .
In Kamakura era, kenninji temple, Tenryuji temple build ship to trade with China , those ship went to China directry.
Korea's three counties at the time , paeckche, Shila, kokryo . many of peckche's decendent are among the envoy member. Prince Shotoku's wife was decndent of paekche, few of Empess was also paekche's decendants.

I am still in middle of learning Korean history and Koeran buddhism. I let's you know more later day. mike