If the holes are small, these could be from green caterpillers that tend to drop down from overhead trees. The peach and apple trees here are peppered with holes in the leaves. I spray Bt to coat the leaves. The green caterpillers spin web threads and wait for breezes at night. This carries them further out. Now, I am seeing a lot of the dangling webs and a few more dead green caterpillers, as well as gypsy moth caterpillers. Oak trees tend to harbor most of these chewers. If the plant leaves are totally gone, it can be from rabbits or other varmints. Covering the plants overnights with some light weight plastic fabric will help to protect the plants. My apple has grown many new leaves but the peach/plum doesn't, so the holes remain all summer. There is also a shot hole bug, but I am not sure if thats the cause if just the top most parts of the trees or plants are affected. You can also try neem oil as a spray, but it takes longer to work and may not control all the caterpillers.

Yes, you do need to try to figure out what might be causing the damage. Your plan of attack can either be helpful OR a total waste of time and money. For example, your pests might not be caterpillars at all.

I'd like to hear a bit more about the insect you've been seeing in relatively large numbers. Don't tell me it looks 'like a ladybug'. But it might be a beetle of some kind. What size?

Neem products are a possible solution for you, as they act as a growth regulator and an anti-feedant. The product doesn't have to get ON the insect to control the damage. But I would still like you to have a better idea of what might be doing the damage.

Have you gone out in the evening, with a flashlight, to see what you might find munching away? I'd be looking for earwigs, slugs or snails, caterpillars, etc. in the evening.

Thanks for the info. I have not seen any caterpillars in the yard whatsoever. There are no trees hanging over the plants at all. That's not to say caterpillars are not the problem, just not that I can tell. I can take a picture of the insects. I do not know of a way of posting pictures to the forum. I will try to figure out a method of posting a pic of the insect I do see. Thanks again.

The ones I mention only come out at night. A green color and about 3/4 inch long. They dangle from the webs in late evening and drop down at night. They do this to avoid getting eaten by birds. Suggest that try some Bt. Because leaf damages are already present, there will be less effect unless they are eating Bt sprayed foliage.

krogers, respectfully, I'd like to suggest that Bt should not be applied unless one is certain that the problem is caused by caterpillars. There has been quite a bit of research about the unintended consequences of the over use and misuse of this product.

rrweather, if you send images of your critter directly to me, I'll have a go at identifying it for you.

I have not read any negatives about Bt. Its organic and has always been. It only affects the digestive systems of larve and caterpillers once they eat foliage. There are a few strains of this and one strain I use is also meant for controlling fungus maggots.

hrm...Spinach...might be Popeye! ;-) Sorry, couldn't resist...lol

The fact the Bt is considered 'organic' has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that we should be conservative about how we use it. I'm certain that you agree with that statement. Being 'organic' does not automatically mean that a product can be safely and indiscriminately sprayed or dusted on our yards and gardens.

The primary concern with Bt-Kurstaki is that of over use. Non-target caterpillars have seen serious declines in native populations. Not all caterpillers can be considered pests, correct?

There is also concern that these strains of bacterium mutate into something else over time, causing problems for unrelated insect and animal species.

Anyway, my comments are simply those of moderation. I recommend Bt products myself. But never as a 'fix' for a problem that has not been properly identified.

If there is an outbreak of insect damages that require using a product that can control them, then its OK to use. I try to avoid any 'do it all' broad spectrum products as they have many more issues with side effects and can cause build up resistance. I am not trying to condone the use as a continual spray used every week. Usually two sprays of any thing are necessary to break large cycles of insect damage. My fruit tees are never sprayed, and I have no worms in my apples. There, I use sticky traps and scent lures. If no improvemnt is seen, after two spray treatments, then other means must be studied. I am quite sure that people don't go out at night and use a microscope in their garden to see what is causing the damages mentioned. Typically leaf eating insects respond well to th Bt product, no matter what kind they are are. Its safe to use, only because it can be applied to edibles, without issues of any side effects to humans. If we were to consider using it on a steady basis, it would soon become as resistant as many harsh pesticides. My info here is to guide someone ito a safe area where they can try this product and see if it reduces insect damages. I would hardly think anyone would pour it on a plant straight out of a bottle on a daily or weekly basis, as we are not really idiots here. I have used it in the past with great success and will continue to us it, as opposed to petrolium based sprays, systemic pesticides, or any other questionable bio hazard products. Everything in nature has a negative effect somewhere, and if we continue to use strong means to cure minor issues we can quickly run out of viable options. Last year, 99% of all my 10+ varieties of leaf lettuce were perfect with maybe a single small hole in a leaf in a single plant. I use things like beneficial nematodes and water these in before any plantings. With all the leaf lettuce I grew and no indications of any serious damages, I was quite happy and never used any product of any kind to protect the minor damages I saw. On the other hand, broccoli had small green caterpillers and these only showed up when I blanched the crowns, and saw them floatng in the boiling water. I didn't spray there either, as it wasn't like I was seeing totally lost broccoli crowns to insects. Just dont try to scare people into some diection where they may decide to use a more powerful product without regard to first trying something that has less of an impact on nature. I bet you also dislike using milky spore for Japanese beetle grubs..

Around here, gypsy moth caterpillers still kill many huge oak trees, and the green ones do serious damage to my fruit trees leaves. I don't have oaks on my property and must deal with overhangs from neighbors. I can't build a wall high enough to block the bugs coming from the trees. Corn earwroms are another issue too, as they can damage a whole crop. I let birds forage in my garden as I feed them in winter. I allow toads and snakes to reside here too. I have a bug spray that my dad boughr years ago, that can also kill earthworms. I do not use such a thing here. In fact, I must have about 15 bottles of nasty stuff left over after the ban on DDT. Needlss to say they never get used and will have to be displosed on an earth friendly manner.

So you are the 'expert' here, what do you insist on using on controlling leaf damages instead?

My goodness, aren't YOU defensive! ;-) All I'm sayin' is that we should not recommend a product (organic or otherwise) to control SYMPTOMS. Accurate identification is important. Microscopes not necessary, lol.

In other words, don't treat the symptom until you know what the cause is. Symptoms can be caused by many different agents. Frankly, this is one of the foremost rules of IPM and good organic gardening.

I'm totally flabbergasted at your incorrect assumptions about my philosophies of pest management. Your anger is clouding your judgement of me. In truth, we probably agree on 99% of this topic.

Let's review a few things: what other leaf eating critters are there? How about beetles of many kinds, slugs and snails, earwigs, sowbugs, and caterpillars. I may have left some out. It's irresponsible to assume that the latter is always the culprit and that Bt should be the product of choice. It's that mentality that has contributed to overuse.

The topic of milky spore (another Bt strain) is an interesting one. I am certainly NOT against using it, but there are certain caveats to its use. It doesn't work in certain soil types or at certain times of the year. It's also not likely to get rid of all of the grubs in your yard, unless there is a neighborhood cooperation. Again, common sense must prevail.

What do I 'insist' on using to control leaf damages? I don't insist on any one thing. Or even anything at all. But I will always insist on find out who the perpetrator is.

If foliage damage seems out of control, I'll do what I deem necessary to mitigate the problem. Mainstream chemicals are never necessary, but I do keep Neem and insecticidal soap on hand. Fire ants are a nuisance in our gardens, so we use an ant bait with Spinosad (organic).

Those 15 bottles of stuff left over after the ban on DDT? Your community has a place that will take them off your hands, probably at no cost to you. Our city has a hazardous product drop off once a month. Better to get rid of the stuff than have something happen to it while on your property.

Defensive. You started in with saying its not appropriate to use Bt as it can cause repercussions and envionmental issues. Making a statement like that, and attempting to 'scare' the original poster, is what you obviosuly attempted to do. Symptoms were stated and no bugs were seen, simple question. I based the issues and problems that I witness as well as use specific solutions I find helpful here as well. My approach was to guide someone towards a way to reduce or end the leaf loss problem in a very low impact way. Yes, I did go out and pluck leaves off my trees at night and used a 30x magnifier to see if I could see anything tiny. Nothing was visable, except the green caterpillers I mentioned before. For a person to post problem, and my asking questions through my own persnal experience and actual treatments, I believe I came to a safe INITIAL solution. If it doesn't help, its not a lost cause, and other means may be needed like covering plants with light weight plastic fabric. I have grown virtally any possible plant that can survive in Z6. I even had a pineapple plant indoors for 3 years and grow figs too. I start all my garden plants indoors in pots, and will grow well over 400 plants per year. Persoanl experieces are much better ways to resolve a problem, as opposed to posting negative comments and attempting to undermine experience wih unfounded info. As mentioned, I am no dummy and know very well what to do with harzardous waste, as I was well trained in that area, as well as in radiation safety, chemical safety, food safety and so many others, too numerous to mention.

Ask yourself this question. You feel lousy and sick, you go to your doctor and they do all kinds of tests and find nothing wrong. Do you just go to more doctors, or do you ask more questions and get more tests? If the sicknmess gets worse, do you go into the internet to find an appropriate solution? I think not. Doctors will sometimes prescribe many different things in an atempt to relieve you of the illness and if it doesn't work, they try more options. Without prompt investigation and a willingness to try and stop a problem in its tracks, means you should try some of the simplest things first. I see 6 different specialists right now and take 22 different meds per day. I could stop all if I thought like you and don't take a proactive approach to my health conditions, but if I did that, how long would I last on this earth, or in it? Today, antibiotics are used so much that many are ineffective in curing the original diseases. Bt, as nev er shown any issues with any resistenace to date.

I refuse to bother with this any further as its obvious to me that there is an issue with your opinions and mine. YOu can preach all you like and it wll be ignored.

I have the same problem - romaine lettuce untouched but basil, spinach and now pepper plant leaves getting eaten. I have many green, 1/4", flying moth-like flying insects that I think are doing the damage but don't know what they are or how to control them. They hide in the grass and jump/fly into the 6" raised vegetable beds. Any ideas?

well i've seen something i never had before and to find it i went out right after it got light in a.m. the culprit WAS an insect about 1". looked like 3/4 of a grasshopper except it's head was totally flat and looked like a piece of basil leaf with the same exact coloring as the basil. it was very hard to find but you will notice it has discharged small black poops all around the plant believe it or not.it was not a pretty site when squashed! now i know what to look for and will inspect every morning as i look forward to my home made pesto!