Hi Misfit50, I planted grass seed as well but at the beginning of this month. We've also had warm and cold snaps. Some of my seed has began to sprout. I'm on this forum attempting to get help so take my feedback with a grain of salt. I was told that fescue should sprout in about 2 weeks. I was told to hand water rather than use the sprinkler. Hopefully someone with more experience will chime in.

Does seem a bit premature to give up on anything before the first day of spring (tomorrow). Winter sowing is a proven method of growing perennials, annuals, vegetables, shrubs, trees & vines from seed. It doesn't guarantee or even suggest seeds will sprout earlier than via direct sowing, only that the germination rates will far exceed those vulnerable to external risks such as wind, critters, etc. Last year my first sprout was lupine on March 14; last one to sprout was painted daisy on May 2. That's nearly a 6-week window when 50 different annuals & perennials sprouted. If Mother Nature hasn't given up on your seeds, at a minimum I'd be more inclined to give them another few weeks.

Bart ... A couple of random thoughts. I am not certain about what you mean by "poor soil". Is the ph too high or too low to grow healthy roses ? Is it because it is not "fluffy" or friable ? Or what ? When I first started my rose garden, my soil was dead. The house pad and gardening area had been cut out of a slope. There was no plant organic material in the soil. After I scraped off all of the decorative rock and weed barrier covering the gardening area that the previous owner of my home had put down, it wouldn't even grow weeds ! If I had it to do over again, I would approach preparing the planting areas differently than I did, but I was a novice at having an in-ground garden. My previous garden was a container garden, so to be blunt, I didn't know what I was doing. Instead of preparing a whole bed, I dug rose holes. I am gardening in what we call glacier slurry/subsoil. It is tightly compressed small stones with clay and silt gluing them together and cannot be dug with a shovel. It's truly lousy soil, but does have excellent drainage. I compensated for the lack of natural organic materials in the soil by feeding the roses with chemical food and mulching the whole bed with any organic materials I could glean that would decompose and feed the soil twice a year. Over the years, the soil has become friable, but it still cannot promote vigorous growth with only organics and I still have to rely on chemical fertilizers to supply the nutrient needs of the plants along with some organics. (The ratio is changing over time.) I have a no-till garden and everything goes on top of the soil in the beds. It takes years to improve soil this way, but it has worked for me. I agree that it takes at least 4 years before a rose really has it's feet under it and comes into its own. I think of younger roses as juvenile plants. Kind of like young trees and have different expectations for them. btw ... every time you or I move a rose, I think that plant is starting over and think of the rose as a new plant and needs time in the new location to settle in. There are other variables that can impact the viability of your roses other than soil. Drainage is a big one. Root competition plays a role. The quality of the light and more. A couple of years ago, I moved two roses that had been in place for 3 years because they were just sitting there and not growing. In the next season, both of them tripled in size. My guess is that they were fighting with a shrub on the other side of the fence and not getting the nutrients and water that they needed to thrive. I have found other variables in this garden that has made a huge difference in the viability of the roses. Some roses are more thirsty than others and need to be watered more often. Some roses hate hard pruning while others truly need the stimulation of harder pruning. Some roses seem to need heavier feeding than others. The roses are the real teachers there. I started taking notes as I worked and it really helped me find out what roses like what. Last thought ... roses like other plants have a mandate to grow. In our third year of extreme drought, I saw the roses abandon growth they could not support. This summer, it was kind of like they just hunkered down and survived. They did not put on a lot of new growth or bloom well at all this season. In my part of California we are now getting regular rain. The high temps dropped and the roses started putting on new growth and blooms at a time of year when they are generally slowing down for winter. We have had a "warm" fall and have yet to have our first hard freeze. The roses look better than they have for a couple of years. The weeds are jumping out of the ground, too. I am thinking that even tho' they have been horribly stressed, the roses are going to be OK, but it may take a couple of seasons for them to become as strong and viable as they were before the drought. This is one of those times when patience is the most important thing I can give the roses. Smiles, Lyn

Jeff - If you cut the older plants off at the stem, you can plant near them by digging small holes. You obviously can't do any tilling, but you can definitely add a layer of compost and scatter fertilizer and "scratch it in" (raking lightly into the top inch or two). You need to plant them earlier, yes ... like in August or September. That gives them the long, coolish winter to do their thing.