I would probably also go with a mix of shrubs and perennials (with pine straw in between) and avoid the ground-covers, for fear of them being aggressive. You could also make a simple path (bark chip or gravel) to occupy some of the space. I agree that you need to pull out the ivy first. We have cleared now about 1/3-1/2 acre of solid, knee-deep ivy, and if you don't get the roots out, it will come back. My husband "strimmed" the tops off as much as possible with one of those machines, so that we could at least see the root area (he's not very sensitive to poison ivy, which we also had a lot of). Then we've pulled it out by hand. Because the roots are so woody, you can pull them out quite successfully (unlike Mondo, which breaks off and leaves little pieces in the ground that then grow back). Here are a few other possibilities for perennials/shrubs (some evergreen): - Tiarella (Mobot says it needs constant moisture but that wet soil in winter will be fatal). I have some in full shade that is doing really well. I believe it is evergreen here (but not certain). Its native. - Big-leaved architectural plants like Fatsia japonica, Ligularia, Farfugium, Rodgersia (some of these are evergreen). - Actaea racemosa (same as Cimicifuga racemosa or Bugbane, this is native) - Lobelia (native too) if you have a spot with some sun There's also a dwarf form of the Sweetspire Esh suggested (Itea Virginica Little Henry), which gets only about 12-18" high. I bought an Illicium floridanum "Shady Lady" recently (at Pike, and HD has them at the moment too). It says it can tolerate full shade (I'm thinking of putting mine in full shade) and Jeff_AL on this forum told me his needed constant moisture, so that might be an evergreen shrub possibility for you (it gets about 6' tall). I'm linking below to a thread on the Perennials forum with a similar question. Here is a link that might be useful: perennials thread

Franksmom, my main flower garden is growing in somewhat similar conditions -- shaded by a giant tree until 11 to 12 and then fried in full sun until around 7. I've learned that shade plants won't thrive in this situation, so I'm always experimenting with full sun plants that (mostly) work. My main problem is some plants develop a definite lean that you have to correct or train (or ignore). Depending on how you feel about wildflowers, coneflowers definitely work -- I'm growing Echinacea angustifolia, E. atrorubens, E. paradoxa, and E. purpurea in the above garden. My go-to never die plants are perennial winecups (Calllirhoe involucrata) and mealy blue sage (Salvia farinacea); they don't seem to mind the reverse shade/sun, but the salvia does lean a bit. Also, I have a Gregg's mistflower that has worked well for years, and this year I'm trying a Havana snakeroot / White mistflower (Ageratina havanensis) that I'm pretty confident will grow in this area as well. As far as annuals go, Salvia coccinea pops up like a weed in this garden. I could check my records for other examples if interested. I've tried a lot of plants with various results, but I feel pretty confident with the above examples.

This is the first morning that I have had a problem uploading pictures. Surely it will be temporary as otherwise a forum like this would DIE. Bman, I hope when you are able to upload a pic it is a wide shot of the overall area. We always need to see the flanking space in order to get an idea of how planting may affect those things around it.

I think it's amazing this thread went on so long with no mention of St Augustine. UC Verde and all the other buffalo and prairie grasses are for full sun. Kikuyu is one of the most invasive imported pest plants short of kudzu. The others mentioned are ground covers that do not repair themselves. Dichondra will die annually from flea beetle. They wipe it out faster than you can diagnose it, but it returns from seed. Fescue, in my opinion should be formally outlawed in CA unless you live west of the 5 in San Diego and Orange counties and west of the 405 in LA. North of the 10 it can be grown on the west slopes of the coastal range, but not in the valleys. St Augustine is a real turf grass, unlike many of the alternates mentioned. It spreads to repair itself under the dog feet, is very shade tolerant, also sun tolerant, and it will crowd out other grasses when mowed at the mower's highest setting. St Aug comes as pieces of sod on a pallet. Cost is about a dollar per piece covering about 2 square feet. It spreads 10 to 15 feet per year in all directions, so if you don't cover the entire area at one time, it will take over and cover for you. St Aug takes as much water as any turf grass if you want it to remain green. If you stop watering it for more than a month, it might die completely, so it differs from other grasses in that regard. But I have revived it from beyond the grave at my my new residence in the Texas Hill Country. St Augustine is considered to be a water hog, but that is pure myth. All grasses need 1 inch of water, once a week, in the hottest heat of summer. This goes for the cool season grasses in the north and the warm season grasses in the south. In Phoenix both bermuda and St Augustine need 1 inch every 4-5 days, but in the rest of the country it only needs it once a week. This time of year in your area you should be watering 1 inch, all at once, every 2-3 weeks. The problem with fescue is it needs water 3x per week in the summer and that dries up your aquifers and lakes. Not sure why you think you have clay, but you likely don't. I don't recall any brick factories in your area, so I'm skeptical. After 12 years of moderating three lawn forums, fewer than 10 writers really had clay. Your soil might have clay like properties, but those can be fixed. Even real clay can be fixed, but you have to have a good soil test along with a good reading of the soil test before you can fix it. 9 times out of 10 people who think they have clay have no clay at all but they do have fine silt and a salt imbalance (calcium, sodium, magnesium, and potassium). You can't know what the problem is without the chemistry test. A secondary issue causing hard soil is allowing the soil to dry completely such that the beneficial microbes in the soil are depleted and unhealthy. That can be fixed by spraying the soil with any clear shampoo at a rate of 3 ounces per 1,000 square feet. Follow that with 1/2 to 1 inch of water and let it go for 3 weeks. At the same time feed the soil with an organic fertilizer like alfalfa pellets, corn meal, soybean meal, or even Milorganite. Compost and/or manure won't do the same thing as the fertilizer. The deep moisture creates a perfect environment for the microbes. The organic fertilizer feeds them. Hard soil is easy to fix. The best soil test in the US is from Logan Labs in Ohio. Yes, it's been tested against all the other labs. Get their $25 test and post the results on the Lawn Care forum and you'll get about $250 worth of free advice from people who know specifically what to apply, when, how much, how often, and where to get the stuff. If you want to see some alternate grasses in action, visit Descanso Gardens and the Huntington Library in Pasadena.