well I would say the standards you gave might need to be refined some but the general idea is good. Tohechito hit upon the real thing to be monitored. There has to be a set standard that all are judged by. This would apply whether in private or public competition. Just like world fishing records. A private club member could in club comp catch a world record fish but it would still need to be weighed on certified scales and the measurements and all taken in accordance with a set prescribed standard in order to qualify. Organizations such as the world pumpkin conference personel woul be great ones to initiate standards for pumpkins or even vegetables in general as standards for each variety/type should follow the same basic rules even if some are judged on weight vs length depending on the veggie. As far as classifying any given variety as a giant, I would let any variety compete in its own category as someone out there will grow or attempt to grow the largest one just to get a record. This would mean records would come and go rapidly in the first few years with the veggies that are not normally called giants. Those more common "giants" that have established records would be more stable but still subject to be replaced as time genetics and growing techniques are adapted. Can't wait until I get atlantic giant seeds in hand so I can go for it next year.

GGG, I do the same thing - I will not buy those dried up, sulfur-coated seed potatoes. I buy one of those small bags of Red Pontiac potatoes in the produce section, cut the spuds into four pieces so each has some eyes, and plant them in hay-lined trenches. (I use the chicken litter hay). Then I cover the tators with more hay and heap up the dirt deeply over them into mounded rows. Last year, from one tiny 2 lb. bag, I got over 50 lbs of lovely, delicious red potatoes that taste like a potato! I planted marigolds around the bed and didn't have any potato bugs. I saw two fly in and dip down, then fly off. Guess they didn't like my stinky marigolds. Trying to decide whether to plant some again this year. I usually plant them early on St. Patty's Day every year. Was too sick this year and cripped up to do much digging. One of the nice things about raised beds is not having to re-dig or cultivate the growing beds every year, except to remove invasive bermuda grass (Boo Hisss - Devil Grass!). The wind is fierce here in Oklahoma today, but it is cloudy and cooler, so I decided it was a good day to plant out some of the tomatoes and pepper plants. I am planning a trip to SoCal in a few weeks to see family, Then from there, on up to the high, High Sierras to see my "mountain man" oldest brother (aka Jedadiah Johnson - jk), and then on up to Placer county in the mountains there to see my older "G. I. Bro." (hehehe) What an eclectic family! Would be great to meet you SoCal gals for lunch. That probably would not work out with you guys, Janna, Edna, & Diana, but it would be a blast if we could! The Chimney Swifts returned yesterday from South America where they winter!!! When they show up, it is always a cloudy day, but I know it is safe to set out my herbs and tomatoes. The Swifts come in at jet speed and dip down low over my head - Swooosh! They leave a wake of air that blows my hair about. They are letting me know they have come home for the summer to nest in my chimney. Then, Zip! Up they fly high into the air over my house, circling and tweatering and gobbling up flying insects like crazy. They tweater constantly while hunting in flight. It sounds very much like the squeaky sounds of bats and the design of their wings and the rapid beating makes them even resemble bats. The sounds they make helps them locate insects, and signals the others where the insects are located. Incredible to watch. At dusk, they come swooping down and dive right into the opening of the chimney at frightening speed. It is an amazing show! I feel blessed that they choose my home to come to every Spring to nest in the chimney and raise their young. I am grateful that I was taught to hold all nature as sacred and to see its true beauty and splendor. Hasta luego! Have a good one! ~Annie

My toughest problem is what in the world should I do with my hardy kiwi? I used to have 5 arches that I grew hops, squash, cherry tomatoes and of course, the kiwi. All 5 arches broke during a freak October snow storm. I reworked that garden area by putting in 4 4x4 beds for my tomatoes. I left the hops in place but put in a tepee type pole trellis for them. But the darned kiwi. I shored it up by putting 10' rebar and wire around each of them but its sprouting out all over the place and really looks very messy. With the arches gone it looks so out of place. I'm afraid to move it and I was hoping it might actually make some fruit this year. My dad who is strictly a function over form veggie gardener even commented on strange it looks where it is.

So it was stable, until it wasn't stable, for the reason I just gave. I win. LOL That stealthy lubadub seems to have gone *poof*, I'd consult with him before even conceding Love-15 since he is more fun than me LOL! I think in order to judge the merits of "Big Zac F1" as a cultivar; we need to compare opinions on what constitutes a cultivar. It can be subjective and perhaps with heirlooms much more so, but now we are asking about traits that result from inbred parent lines. That the seeds were an F1 cross certainly is reasonable acknowledgment. However, anecdotal reports of “Minnie’s friends” are not sufficient proof IMO, that Big Zac F1 ever was a hybrid cultivar. To know that for sure, IMHO, we would have to have a record of the breeding of both parents to form stable inbred parent lines such that when crossed they always gave a vigorous seed and always had the same combination of characteristics to clearly define the seed plant characteristics every time in terms of its characteristics not limited to consistent fused blossoming and vigor. Porterhouse is probably a good example of a hybrid in this sense. If you mean to say that our heronie Ms. Zaccaria worked on both parent lines and Big Zac F1 was not drifting this or that way then I'll readily concede in straight sets. I vaguely recall as an armchair blabbing analyst who was off somewhere in the tropical jungles when this whole thing went down, a somewhat different version: That she simply crossed two heirlooms and used that as her F1 and little by little improved it, which I assume was via the parent lines. I would need more than a a few friends waving their arms calling this a quality F1 hybrid that always performed "the same" There is a limit to how much "in-variety genetic diversity" there can be, and everything may not be recognized as a cull when this is done in a home garden. At some point you need to say the genetic diversity did not justify calling it a stable F1 hybrid, and you are just dealing with a cross. Dealing with a cross is great, but the decision to name a variety is subjective and I'm sure plenty of varieties have been named that had parents that later were show not to breed true. The scandal of losing a parent to me is highly suspicious and the loss is hearsay which may or may not be relevant or true. To be honest, after watching the passion with which giant tomato growers behold their seeds like Smeagol's "My Precious", given the nature of the egos in the competition, my only conclusion is that Big Zac F1 was simply a cross between two heirloom lines which had a higher frequency of expression of fused blossoms. I wonder if it is more accurate that Ms. Zaccaria discovered and should be credited with a higher frequency of fused blossoms, possibly a mutation, possibly not, which was still quite variable and requires significant resources to achieve the heterosis and uniformity a quality hybrid needs to give. New breeding has probably advanced BZ (OP) well beyond the F1 from what we are seeing, and they still do not consider it stable (Unless the F* from Monsieur Boudyo has reached that point for a single specific trait). I may have different thinking, since I also believe if the mutation is fixed and a consistent tomato producing multiple fruits is bred, that the new stable cultivar should be the beginning of as new subspecies at minimum recognized as different as broccoli is from cauliflower. Perhaps when my great heirloom book arrives in the Male (smile), I’ll have a better understanding of hybrids ;-), but these are my thoughts as all-wet as they might be. PC who really wants to ask a question about the systemic or not characteristics of initial Leaf Mold (whimper, frown) when I get up the guts to start another thread. and also subscribes to the academy of "it isn't how big it is but how well it eats" though still finding this fascinating in other people's gardens. This post was edited by PupillaCharites on Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 14:25