Hi Dax, No idea what the problem is, but you'll never keep it alive in zone 5 anyway! It is at best zone 8, realistically zone 9. Think of it like Pinus elliottii in terms of climate/ecology. Resin

The Reference Manual of Woody Plant Propagation From Seed to Tissue Culture: SEED: The immature cone is greenish violet and changes to purplish brown when ripe. Cones ripen in August and September and seeds are not dispersed until the detached cone disintegrates. Therefore, the cones must be mechanically broken up to free the seeds. Swiss stone pine averages 2,150 cleaned seeds per pound. Seeds should probably be floated to determine soundness. The seed coate is thick but not impervious to water as once thought. Fresh and stored seeds require 3 to 9 months cold stratification. Some lots of P. cembra also may have immature embryos and require a warm stratification (2 to 3 months at 70 to 80 F) preceding the cold stratification for maximum germination. Late fall sowing has given poor germination. Fall sown seed in August or early September has given good results because this species benefits from 2 to 3 months warm moist pretreatment. Shade seedlings for 2 years. Pinus cembra, because of its lenghty and complex seed dormancy problems, together with its difficulty in seed extraction, is a good candidate for vegetative propagation (GRAFTING). So, I would sow seed now and let them cruise thru winter after a float test and wait. Dax

"You didn't read it right, I didn't say seedlings were coming up often here, I said those coming up here were often beneath or near parent trees - like frightened children staying near their mother" Nice simile . . . tho' my query is still relevant, as one coming up near (but not directly under) has a potential for surviving to adulthood. From the response, I presume though that very few if any do so. Though one "breaking apart an old wall" is very unlikely to be planted. As well as susceptibility to damping off already cited, I'd guess another reason for rarity of cedar seedling establishment is the rarity of untended, ungrazed ground that does not have intense competition from herbaceous plants. Resin

A treatise by Golte entitled "Araucaria" (written in German if you go looking for it) describes the contrasting germination/survival strategies of A. bidwillii and A. cunninghamia, whose ranges overlap significantly. He notes that, in their overlapping ranges, A. bidwillii and A. cunninghamia tend to prefer different sites -- West-facing, East-facing, that sort of thing. If I remember correctly, he thought it had to do with water requirements. As for germination/survival strategies, he noted that the seed of each ripens at a different time of year. A. cunninghamia seed, which is small, ripens in the wet season. The seed germinates quickly and puts out photosynthesizing leaves quickly so that it can begin making its own food. A. bidwillii seed, which is big, ripens at the end of the wet season. The first mission of the seed, living off the nutrition pack, is to put out a big root to get down to the moisture as the dry season begins. That's my recall. Are these two patterns true of all Araucaria seed? Do the small seeds ripen during the wet season? Do the big seeds ripen toward the end of the wet season? If so, which species fall into which category? Araucaria araucana is a big seed. Does that mean that its germination is hypogeal and that it ripens at the end of the wet season? What about Araucaria angustifolia? These seeds are large, too, no? Does that mean that Araucaria angustifolia germination is hypogeal and that it ripens at the end of the wet season? Are all the rest small? Do they ripen in the middle of the wet season? What about Agathis? Any parallel there?