Hi Scott, It would save me a tremendous amount of space and make me extremely glad if I could fit all 4 varieties into a single 30' x 30' circle area dedicated to the 4-in-1 tree's life-long spread. I want to bounce still a couple of potential complications with this senario, all of which may be resolvable. And believe me: I am willing to be vigilant and careful in maintaining the tree's 4-way balance if it turns out that I decide to things this way. 4 Separate rootstocks/cultivars in one hole: 1. Peach trees are, even when left unrestricted, smaller trees with smaller trunk and root systems then American persimmons. If I give each cultivar its respective 1/4 room to spread its foliage, I fear that each tree will struggle to obtain enough solar sourced energy to support itself; although, one point could be to note that pruning will keep the trunk and roots small and potentially/hopefully proportionate to each tree's respective trunk/root-stem/needs. The 4+ major scaffolds arising from the base of the peach, cherry, wild-growing persimmon, etc. are sharing the same nutrients via the same root-system. If I ever decide to let the tree grow to full form and size, the 4 trunks would grow so large and strive to get away from the other trunks that they would fall down. 2. Jerry Lehman convinced me that it is not likely that American persimmons would properly inosculate, that instead of fusing they would bruise and rot - specifically American persimmons, not all trees. This doesn't, however, have anything to do with spacing the four trees in the same hole 20" apart. 3. However, it seems to me pretty feasible: which is to carefully keep the 4 trees in relative 1/4-balance within the 4-way circle. 4. Your description of that cherry tree above makes me think that we are talking about not many trees in the same hole, but a single tree bearing various root stocks in-grafted? Is that what you recommend? I've been told that persimmons are notorious from dropping former limbs when new ones are added. Let me know which situation you recommend for me: 4 trees in one hole or should I do a multi-graft tree - if I could do the later and be secure that it would work, I could just keep my 4 saplings for the future purpose of being the scion bank for the multi-graft tree. I keep hearing that I shouldn't do a multi-graft persimmon tree. I just got my persimmons in the mail and I quickly put them in the ground pending what I finally decide upon. I really appreciate discussing my options on this with you - at least when I do choose a plan, I'll have considered practically every option. Thanks, Steve

It's interesting you mention Europe Drew. Some of the high density systems did originate there. However apparently many cider orchards in Europe still use low density systems, even in new plantings. There is currently some discussion of this very topic on another forum I follow called "Apple Crop". It's geared toward commercial production. One of the posters mentioned his trip to Europe in the context of cider tree density. I do understand the reasoning behind designing cherry plantings for harvesting equipment. As you know, cherries require a huge amount of labor to hand harvest. They have some mechanically assisted apple harvesters and I admit spindle systems are conducive to that type of harvesting. It's unlikely peaches will be machine harvested in the foreseeable future. Some have experimented with peach plantings to use mechanical thinners (which is where the real labor is in a peach orchard) but I don't think anyone can draw any sweeping conclusions at this point. I should have mentioned in my previous post, that while high density apple systems do obtain more yield per land area, those yields are highly dependent on the appropriate rootstocks for the planting density. The spindle systems Dr. Robinson mentions use very dwarfing rootstocks. More vigorous rootstocks in the same high density planting would have lower yields than a low density planting. The vigorous trees would require too much pruning, turning the trees into "wood machines", as Scott has described. I just want to mention this to prevent someone new from getting the impression crowded trees automatically = more fruit. I would also mention some of the very dwarfing rootstocks require a high level of management and are not at all forgiving of the frequent mistakes of beginners (or even mistakes of veterans). Dr. Robinson glosses over this with the flippant comment, "You have to be able to grow trees." Yeah, sometimes that's easier said than done, even with trees that aren't delicate (as anyone who has grown any amount of tree fruit can attest).

Scott: Thanks for the input. I knew you'd have something helpful to say. I was thinking one ft apart and slope each tree about 30 degrees alternating each tree to form a V. I'd let them get about 8ft tall with a 6ft spread at the top. In Australia I believe this is called a tatura trellis. I believe I could keep these under control and productive top to bottom. If I went to this system for all the stonefruit I'd have four rows of 36 trees each in an area 32ft by 36ft. I really think this sounds like a great idea. I'd plan on replacing one row each year. So that would be one yr to establish and three yrs production before replacment. I'd like to get an agreement with Dave Wilson Nursery to test about 30 of Zaiger's advanced selections each year. This would be the perfect system to do that. I could find new cultivars for greenhouse production and demonstrate their favorite theme; high density home orchard production. I'd pay big bucks to get on their advanced testing list. When I was in CA I tasted about 20 of their best new fruits each week all summer. Have wanted to get in on that ever since. The Fruitnut

Thank you Gary. I have a Mallika already and it is doing well. It surpised me to see how attractive Mango trees are as container plants! Lisa Here is a link that might be useful: Container Mango