Wow, it must be hard to make rose decisions in a place where it's hard for a rose to die, Suzy. Sometimes i'm secretly glad when a rose that really doesn't thrive in my yard has the good grace to die over the winter, so I don't have to be a rose murderer. As for the rate of failure, it's definitely a product of being a zone pusher and wanting to try something different. Plenty of people in my zone have never lost a rose because they're smart enough to only plant roses suited for their climate- imagine that! I'm more like Ingrid, in sandandsun's timely quote, that I prefer to look at winter survival as a challenge rather than the roses of a particular type (or breeder) having a specific death wish in my garden. You're all absolutely right that knowing the breeder isn't enough to judge health, survival, or any other qualities in your yard. I absolutely do the kind of trial and error experimentation that Lyn was talking about in my own yard, it's just that I haven't really come up with particular patterns for what thrives in my yard, except for the obvious ones like "lavenders and russets are usually weak" (understatement of the year) or "roses with teas in their heritage are a long shot". Rick, I admire you for checking the breeding history of the roses, and it certainly would be a more logical approach with fewer failures. I'm afraid I don't follow the breeding history or even keep track of which parents do well for me, though I have noticed that climbers with New Dawn as a parent are likely to be a good match for my yard. Wow, Nastarana, I hadn't been familiar with Jacobus as a breeder but I looked up Dream Girl, and - wowza zowie is she ever! I love those fat blooms with swirled packed petals, and it's great to hear it thrives in zone 5. Might be a nice counterpart to Nahema on my fence. You ought to share your observations with Helpmefind, since there was very limited personal information on this rose. Where did you get yours? Cynthia

I see that this is a rather old thread, but I thought I'd comment anyway, since the topic is something I am familiar with. I was the sales manager at a local garden center for about 7 years. As such, I got to deal with the public when we had people walk in and offer plant materials for sale or as a donation to us. There are a couple of reasons why nurseries often won't buy plants from the "public at large." Here's sort of the scoop on this whole matter: 1) It is TECHNICALLY illegal in my state to buy plant matter for commercial resale from anyone other than another liscenced nursery. This is pretty typical in most jurisdictions, where an inspection certificate must be provided with any shipment of live plant matter. However, this law isn't really enforced, so it's often just an easy excuse to give to the person trying to sell you their 22 year old peace lily covered with mealybugs and with severe tipburn from being watered for years with flouridated tap water. 2) Plant matter grown by amateurs can vary from gorgeous and healthy to horrible. The real problem with this practice is that, all too often, someone will have an old, ugly, unhealthy, and infested plant which really only belonged in the trash, but which they would want us to pay top dollar for. Another common thing, believe it or not, was for someone who was relandscaping or doing construction to pull in with a broken up, overgrown yew or similar shrub in their trunk, with a few hacked roots sticking out from a tarp, and try to sell it to us. One time, a lady wanted to sell us a bundle of yew trimmings to sell for Xmas cut greens. I told her she should have come BEFORE we unloaded half a semi trailer of Oregon evergreen products the previous day. Unfortunately, because this practice happens quite often, most nurseries develop a blanket "just say no" type policy -- we did, it was just easier than dealing with it on a one by one basis. But, no matter what the situation, the rejection should always be made in a considerate and respectful manner. Even then, some people would be nice about it, others would become upset. 3) The nature of the business. Buyers usually have targets on species, quantity, size, price, etc. Quite often, people would try to offer something unusual to us which, while actually a nice plant, wasn't something which would prove popular enough for us to warrant actually trying to sell. Also, a lot of times, the people customers see aren't authorized to deal with such matters, and the person who is authorized isn't readily available, so it is just easier to, once again, "just say no." I always suggested that people try to donate their plants (usually houseplants or landscape plants for us, that was our main business) to a school, library, or other public building where it could be enjoyed by all.

The leaves fall off because of rust. The air is just too humid in Houston. With all the rain, the problem is even more so this year. There is milky sap on the stem end when you pick the fruit because the fruit is not fully ripe yet. If you bought the trees at a nursery in Houston, there is not telling what you have. I say this with lots of experience. The more popular varieties around the Houston area are Celeste, Kadota, Alma, and Brown Turkey. You already said they do not turn brown, so we can eliminate BT. If your fruit stays yellow, then I would tend to agree with everyone else and say Kadota (or one of its variants). If your tree has tinges of golden brown, it is probably Alma. The fruit on your tree does not appear to be the same size/shape as the Celeste variant that seems to be everywhere in Houston. If you live close to the Clear Lake area, I can direct you to where a Celeste, an Alma, and a Brown Turkey live and hang over a fence in public view. You could go to those locations to see what they look like and what stage of development they are in. ~james

That's so awful. Not just is it horrible to drag a kid around Disney watching you buy stuff that they can't have, it is not fair because you are keeping them from the rides! The worst one I've heard re Disney is my entry in the Worst Mother Ever contest. I had a neighbor a few years ago who had had a rough deal; he had gotten hit by a drunk driver and suffered some brain damage. He could never get back into his old profession (due to the damage), had outrageous medical bills, etc. So his wife decided that that was not what she had signed up for, apparently, and left him and the kids. She seemed to have this incredible and bizarre anger towards him, like it was somehow his fault that her life plans had not worked out, and seemed determined to "make him pay", even at the expense of her children. (According to other neighbors at that time, when he was in the hospital after the accident, they didn't think he'd make it. Some attorney got a hold of her or vice versa and she was telling the neighbors how much money she'd get in the lawsuit for having lost her husband. Well, he did make it - but the accident money all went towards the medical bills. Maybe she was angry that he didn't decently die so she could be a wealthy widow.) For example, their custody agreement said that he was responsible for dropping off the kids for the beginning of their visitation (backwards from most people's.) He didn't have a car and I remember driving back from the grocery one scorching hot summer Sunday and seeing he and the young kids waiting at the bus stop. I stopped because I knew the bus didn't run very frequently on Sundays; in order to drop off the kids he had to take a bus into town, wait almost two hours for a transferring bus back out of town to her place, and then do it all in reverse. In total this trip was going to take almost seven hours, nearly half of it with the kids in 90 plus heat. All this was to get to a woman's house who lived five miles away, (on the other side of a shopping district/highway so unwalkable), and who had a car. Needless to say I drove them there, and on the way back asked him why his X couldn't pick the kids up. She had told him that it was his responsibility per the court order and refused to do it, even though her own kids had to go on this several hour bus trip! Anyway, the guy struggled financially the whole time I knew him due to these circumstances. But every year, without fail, the X would go on a two week trip to Disney with her BF and her BF's niece. (Her own kids, of course, had never been.) And every year, without fail, she'd come over to see her kids upon her return and show them all of her pictures! And these were young kids - I just couldn't believe it! What on earth would be going through someone's mind to think that it would be so nice to show your kids how much fun you had, again, in Disney, with someone else's child?!