That most likely will not close up on its own. I have heard of repair work on trees with similar wounds, but I am guessing it is costly and time-consuming.

I think a systemic will be a waste of money, but I will be watching to see what the masters have to say.

I need context, Whaas. Is that a pretty darn big hole on a large tree, a small hole on a small tree, er whaat? (Couldn't help that!)

I don't like all the loose bark and pitch massing.

+oM

Oh wait......."almond-sized hole". Silly me. Alrighty then.....I would not suggest a "systemic" until we at least know which of life's kingdoms we're dealing with-insectivora, fungus, etc.

If it were a spruce, especially pungens, I'd be thinking cytospora canker. Can't remember off the top of my head if Abies can get that. Wouldn't explain the hole though. I'm talking more the pitch mass. Any dead foliage on the tree?

That tree has some real issues. You might want to burn it when it expires.

Just a guess but it appears a boring insect has been at work and left larvae as its calling card.

For that big of a hole to appear it looks like the Wood peckers have been hard at work chasing down those larva.

Dave

I'd say the depth of the hole is 1/2". I'm not afraid of the camera so I can get more pics.

Tree is otherwise healthy just not a vigorous spring flush.

What is the pitch mass, the bark splitting? I did notice minor splitting when I planted it but it seems like the splitting is deeper.
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for a recent rather large transplant.

that spring flush doenst look all too out of normal ... again.. transplant considered ...

with as fluffy as that thing.. you had to be getting your head in there to find it ... or is there a gaping hole on the other side ... like one of its lowest branches is missing????

it will come down to two choices .. your inner tree scientist wanting to experiment and observe what if anything will happen.. over the years ...

versus your inner retentive.. 'everything in my garden must be pristine perfect .. and it has to go now .. and be burned in the pagan temple to green man' ...

your choice ..

coffee is just kicking in.. i dont know what i would do about the systemic ... i am indifferent right now .. trees everywhere have holes in them.. might not really mean much of anything in the next 25 years.. or it might be a problem ... will mull it over..

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: and not the idiot in spandex

That tree is fckd up.

From my Readers Digest: Quick Troubleshooting Guide:

Bark has holes or cracks.

Cause: Animal, bird, borer, sun or frost damage.

Solution: Wrap trunk with wire mesh to ward off animals and birds. Control borers with a synthetick insecticide labeled for the tree species. Protect trunk from elements by applying tree wrap or (something such as Doc Farwell's Seal & Heal).

Dax

Ken, you're right, it wasn't easy finding that hole with all that fluffyness. Its right at the base of the tree, just a few inches off the ground. I had to lift the canopy to find it. I found it by luck as I pulled all the mulch back to get a nice watering in.

Well, I like Tom's strategy at indentifying whether its a fungus or not. Any tips to eliminate the possiblity its a fungus?

If no fungus, I like Dax's suggestion on the mesh to protect it.

What about the Doc Farwell's Seal & Heal? I've always been a skeptic with these products. Perhaps using this to fill the hole is the best idea so water doesn't just sit in the hole. Not sure I'd use it for the cracks though.

This darn tree is probably the most important screening tree I have as it's intended to block the worst view on the entire lot. I feel like I already vested alot in this plant. Its almost 8' tall, pretty darn expensive, no warranty, bull busting labor to install it.

Hey Whaas, Why would you pull the mulch back to get a nice watering in? Just curious.
AL

You can get a much quicker soaking with a soaker attachment IME. It just goes quicker for me as that older, severely dry mulch is tough to pentetrate and doesn't allow for a nice even watering unless you do the slow drip method or a long overhead watering.

I typically only do this with plants that have been in the ground 2 or 3 years. Otherwise 1st year plants get a nice soaker right at the base. Older plants...well I've never experienced a drought like this so not sure what I'd do. I'd probably do early morning overhead watering on a dry, calm, sunny day if it hadn't rained in over a month.

wow, the tree otherwise looks beautiful. it almost seems like the bark was for a time, inflexible to expansion, almost brittle, and cracked like a dry lake bed giving an entrance. is there a hole or wound above the almond one? i would try to save it. you might peel some bark carefully to see potential bark beetle paths for diagnosis.

Do I get 20 questions? Dang, that's one already.

How loose is that bark that's splitting and can you get a wider view of the hole or at least a pic of what's happening above the hole? Looks like at least one drill hole up there. I'm leaning toward what Dave said. Something bored in and a woodpecker or sapsucker went after it. Finally, it looks near the ground so is this very near the graft? If so I see a kink on the right side (or its an illusion) and it may have started as a graft issue that led to other issues.

tj

I love questions and appreciate the help. More pics to follow.

Alright, not sure if these help or not.

I guess at the end of the day I'm not going to remove this plant but it would be interesting to get a vote on this...

1) Fungus or no fungus? I think we are leaning towards no fungus.
2) If no fungus is there any reason to be overcautious and use a systemic? I think we are leaning towards no systemic
3) What, if anything, should I use to protect/seal the wound? Dax had some good ideas with temp. mesh until it heals or some heal and seal.

My concolor appreciates your advice.

The "band" of sap/resin is from stretchy green tape. I had it on until this spring to help stabilize it. I had to remove quite a few roots since of course, it was planted too deep. Those nubs just might be where I pruned off roots.

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Annorous Root Disease

A disease called annorous root disease affects fir trees, precipitated by a fungus that brings about the formation of what botanists call conks. These structures can look like seashells and develop on the crown of the roots. They eventually cause the bark of the fir to separate from the inner wood. This disease will usually kill pine trees, but firs are luckier in that normally the affliction simply causes some decay in the inner wood of the tree. However, this can weaken the tree and leave it at the mercy of other diseases. The fungus has the ability to live for decades within the roots of an infected tree, meaning any other fir tree's roots that contact them will also come down with the ailment.

I think I am seeing one of these conks. The round layered structure just to the right of center at base of tree.

Dave

Years ago I had a 'Concolor' with a wound just like that. I don't know where it came from, but it got worse and worse.
I finally cut it down because it looked worse than good and was looking worse as time went by. Not just the wound, but the over all looks of the tree. That's when I decided it was over for it, and took the saw to it.
I hope you don't have to do the same.
It looks like you won't have to in my opinion.
Mike

Dave, do you mean Annosus Root Rot? If so where are you seeing a conk?

Mike, did it get bigger, deeper or both? The only good news is that it doesn't appear to be bleeding at this point.

I would be planting some back-up trees as soon as you can, bad news, of course, in this weather. I do not think your tree will be displaying any sort of longevity. You have nothing to lose by waiting, but I would be planning to get some replacement trees in the ground.

"I think I am seeing one of these conks. The round layered structure just to the right of center at base of tree".

D

Could be wrong, but that looks like a pruning wound where Mr. Whaas removed a root in the previously too-deeply-planted tree.

Whaas, while we continue pondering this, I still don't like the sound of "a systemic". Systemic what? Insecticide? Fungicide? Systemic can mean more than one thing.

I'd want to study up on annosus. That's a serious thing to be sure, but until I knew more, I wouldn't necessarily say the tree's got that. This could be one of those things........where you never do learn exactly what's going on. And in the mean time, the tree might go on to a long life. It certainly is healthy in general aspect.

+oM

Will, is this a grafted cultivar or a species concolor? The reason I ask is that it looks like there's a discrete boundary above which the bark looks fine, below which it looks generally unhappy. In addition to the hole, it's covered in a web of cracks. I wouldn't be surprised if some of these cracks don't open up over time and come to resemble the hole. I'm wondering if the "good bark" is from the scion and the understock happened to be be unfit, now splitting and cracking as it ages. If it's not a grafted plant, maybe there's another explanation for the localized bark issues like a history of improper watering.

I was thinking insecticide. But again not sure.

I'm still intrigued by this seal and heal. Not sure if its the right thing to do.

Perhaps I'll let it go for now and see what happens next year.

If this is what you guys are referring to as a possible conk its just a wound from a root prune. Let me know if I missed it.

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i agree with maplegrove's assessment... and vote for Dax's seal and heal to close the door on intruders.

Going off memory but I think the soil level was up near where the cracks are. I doubt its grafted as it was sold as a species plant. Its too green too!lol!

My theory on the cracks is exactly what you mentioned, improper watering. I noticed this on a couple other pot bound plants as well.

I think the hole is a seperate issue as its missing inner wood and with the cracks the inner wood is still intact.

As always appreciate the feedback from everyone. Feel free to chime in on any new thoughts.

Doc Farwell's Seal & Heal is a good product.

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One of my Picea a. 'Reflexa' had a bruise or contusion on the trunk. I really never could figure out what it was. It was loosing so much sap that it puddled at the base of the trunk. I cut this damaged area completely out with a knife clear down t the hard wood. I applied Seal & Heal 3-4 times over a months time. It finally shut the problem down and there were no more issues.

The tree is healing and beginning to expel the patch off as it grows as seen by the dark areas. I'll just let it do its thing and not disturb the seal.

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I would not do anything to the Fir until you find out what the problem is.

Is it still leaking sap?

If no further advice is forth coming and you are at a loss as how to treat then I would cut and clean out all the infected area fill in the hole with some expanding foam and apply Doc Heal & Seal.

The sooner the better.

Dave

It leaked very little sap, if any so I'd be a bit hesitate to reopen anything.

I'm going to put some breathable mesh on it and see what is does between now and fall. I'll measure the hole to see if it contracts or expands.

Perhaps get an arborist out here. The last guy that stopped out seem to be quite familr with fir diseaeses.

First off, trees don't heal....ever. Wounds can be closed off through the formation of both chemical and physical barriers, and new wood formation.

That green junk is useless, except of course, to the guy selling it. And I reiterate, if you don't know what you are dealing with, please don't blindly treat "it" with harsh chemicals. You'll be wasting your money and that's not the worst of it.

I am surprised at the generally low level of awareness suddenly being exhibited on this board on the subject of trees and their biology.

Other than that, have a good one.......+oM

Tom, I'm trying to read inbetween the lines and I think you're saying there is no definite answer here so leave it for the time being.

Don't get frustrated, just be objective and help build that awareness back up. You will never win over the ignorant but the majority, including myself, are here to learn.

Well, alrighty then.

So whaas, it was buried too deep when you got it. Was it buried where all the cracking is now? I see where you cut the root off, how much above that was covered? Trunk cells, of course, are not meant to be underground, the tree was adapting by sending out that root and then it was back to being exposed. Not likely to be the whole story, but compromised bark that made it vulnerable to what you have. I'd just let it be and see what happens.

tj

+om don't let your technical degree BS land on me. It was no secret what I meant.

They do heal over with new wood formation.

I used this product and it worked. Telling everybody it was useless just shows how stupid you are. Have you ever used it?

I am surprised you stuck your big nose in this subject matter.

Your low level of awareness tells the rest of us you don't have a clue. Strange with all your expertise or the lack of it. I am now convinced that your comments on this forum are worthless.

Come back when you know something and are smart enough to be engaged enough to be helpful and not critical.

D

What Tom is saying is that it is not anymore recommended to put any sort of sealer over a wound; at best, it will do nothing and at worst could compound a problem.

He is also saying that a tree will only compartmentalize a wound, it cannot HEAL a wound. The tree will always be compromised in the would area, even if it goes on to live an otherwise healthy life.

I also think you are not going to know what is wrong with the tree (how it got wounded to begin with) from anyone here because we are not there to see the tree or take samples to examine for insects or fungus.

Have your arborist out if you think he is well-educated, he may be able to pin point exactly what the problem is. Otherwise hope for the best and plan for the worst.

Just for the record I was responding to whaas and not to dsteg. The latter posted while I was still typing.

OMG Dave did you really just say all that? Since when is anyone let alone someone with Tom's knowledge and constant helpfulness not allowed to respond without being attacked?
Cher

Hey Cher...I call it the way I see it.
I didn't learn conifers in a university. I am self taught and have learned by hands on experience what works and what doesn't over the last 15 years.

To discredit someones product as 'Useless" is a stretch. Especially when I used it first hand. It saved a 15 ft' Picea a. 'Reflexa ' from bleeding out.

This tree has a serious problem. I would treat it immediately to reverse what is going on in that area.

To say just let it sit because I/we don't know what the problem is is signing its death warrant.

Sorry if you don't agree. I stand by my statement.

D

Cher, Tom could have kept the swipes out of it. I read that as Dave is a snake oil salesman and dumb.

Compare what he wrote to what Greenhaven cleaned it up to.

Eitherway I appreciate everyone's help. If I learn of anything new later this year I'll post a new topic.

Hey Dave. I know the sniping goes on. Wish it didn't, I know you were aggravated but name calling shouldn't happen.

I know "In a perfect world".....if only.

severside, you're one of my favorite people on here also, I here you. The one thread on here about cutting roots, everyone voiced different opinions and nobody argued, and that's the way it should be. That thread everyone just answered their own way instead of arguing with someone because of a different opinion. I enjoy this forum the most because there are so many nice people on this one.
Cher

Preventative insect control (granular) will ward off anything from eggs to juvenile or adult critters for 3 months. In my opinion, it won't kill the tree, or destroy the "environment" and it's simply a safety measure for your tree. At local garden centers, non-Bayer granular systemics are very inexpensive these days.

The goop Dave is referring to and I recommended to whass, has application(s) value. While you currently don't need it, I still would recommend you cover the cracks for winter. If you ever have a wound like Dave did where the resin would not stop flowing, do as Dave suggested or lose your tree.

The wounds seen make perfect sense as tj referred to that the tree was buried to deep in the pot. If your own skin cells were submerged too long in in water or moist soil and most-likely media that dried up in-between, you'd have a problem on your hands, too.

This matter of who's a biologist/teacher/enthusiast/propagator/plant technician is for the birds. Leave each other alone.

Dax

Nerves are raw from the heat...

OK, the truth is, I could have used a little tact up yonder. That is, I stand by the content of what I said earlier, but like some have said, I didn't have to take it in quite the direction I did.

Here's the thing: This is a forum about trees, trees which happen to be coniferous. And for whatever reason, both here and in the regular Trees forum, there's been a rash of what I consider long-term members' use of inexact and downright incorrect verbiage in talking about some of the things we see. It's just a forum but it gets frustrating to see long-discredited notions about tree care still in wide circulation. I guess I'd just like us to be better than that. The information is out there, derived from many sources, including people that intensively studied things like wound dressings, tree responses to injuries, and the like for decades.

BTW, I don't know a single tree care practitioner worth his or her weight in rare Pinus aristata cultivars that stopped learning at some point. I know I haven't. Whether from books, in school, on the job, or at a seminar some place.....or in one's own yard for that matter, who would ever say they've learned all there is to know?

Finally, Dave, you're right-I've never tried that particular product, so to some degree, I do not know its effectiveness as claimed. What I do know is that since at least 1980, I've heard the very concept that trees require humans to apply various materials to their wounds called into question, and done so with tree biology as the underpinning of this questioning. That is what I think has gone missing lately around here and at "Trees". Not sure why, but it seems we quickly drift into matters that I do believe have been settled long ago.

Now that's not to say that there could never be a substance which, when applied to a tree wound, would help in some way. Our own Spruceman came up with his own "Liguid Copper Fungicide" (Sorry spruce if I got that wrong) and it could be that there is merit to what he came up with. But again Dave, take the case you cite, that of the spruce you "fixed" and got to stop "bleeding out". I would question how it is that you are sure that putting this stuff on the tree is what caused it to get better. Trees often do get better, and with no outside help. In fact, not directed at you especially, but to my way of thinking, this is a part of human arrogance to think that it is our actions, and our actions alone, that saved this or that plant. I look to the widespread coverage of the earth with trees as evidence that our role in their success is close to insignificant.

I'd like people to learn, so when I see things that ring false to me, I point them out. I didn't like Whaas saying he though he needed to apply some control product when in fact, the nature of the problem had not been identified. So I called him out on it. If someone came on here and said you have to bury your new plantings extra deep, so the wind won't blow them over, I would raise my objections there too. Otherwise, what would be the point of participation here?

+oM

Well at least you man enough to admit a little more tact would have been preferable.

Your quote: "I would question how it is that you are sure that putting this stuff on the tree is what caused it to get better".

This tree was rapidly bleeding out and there was no controlling it. I can equate it to a severed artery in a human. Its not going to fix itself. A physician needs to be called in. This product got it under control and finally stopped the bleeding. I can truthfully say the wound is healing by producing new wood to cover it. I only share information with forum members that I know works. I am not a snake oil salesman. I have nothing to gain by promoting this product. My only motive is to help and I only become involved if I have something positive to present. I can also become involved when a subject matter is being tanked by someone who has not a clue.

Peace,

D

I never thought YOU were selling anything Dave. That was meant for the person that sold it to you. To me, such products are in the same class as fertilizer spikes, but then again, I've not studied up on the green wound dressing. It's just that from everything I know, trees do their own wound sealing-if they are sufficiently vigorous. Thus, only those actions which might enhance a tree's basic vigor will really help such matters...IMO. An example would be to make sure the soil isn't too dry for too long under a tree which has been damaged.

BTW, the fluids and semi-fluid substances in a tree are not totally analogous to blood in an animal. There's some overlap in that both types of material carry nutrients to all the parts of the "body". But especially in the case of conifers, with their "pitch", there are strong anti-fungal and insect-resisting properties. It would not be wrong to think of a tree as being pressurized, relative to the outside air around the tree. This is true when the tree is healthy, and can help to literally push bad stuff out or prevent its entry in the first place. We've all heard how borers are attracted to weak and stressed out trees and this is partially the reason why-healthy specimens of the same species can keep the insects out in the first place.

+oM