The entry for this daylily: EAST OVER, NC $8.00/ea
(Fred Smith - GN) M 26 inches D hot pink with a blend of wine, lots of ruffles; unusual color! (Color: pink)

(Fred Smith - GN) - I am assuming this to mean "Garden Name" indicating that it is not a registered name, but a daylily someone just gave a name to. I would say you purchased a seedling of unknown parentage.

Judy D.

It seems as if this company is selling more than one daylily variety with a garden name - especially by this Mr. Fred Smith. No matter how pretty, if it isn't registered or pre-registered pending name approval, it's just a seedling (if you want to go by AHS standards.)

Thanks Judy,

I didn't know what GN meant but many thanks to you I do now. I'm pretty sure Fred Smith is an elderly gentleman maybe deceased so it will probably never be registered. I guess I have a pretty seedling. Thanks again.

Judy D. from Illinois

Howdy,

Hornbaker's has sold Fred Smith seedlings for years. We have purchased a few in the past. They are marked as GN - for garden names. We received a flyer one year from Hornbaker's explaining the Smith seedlings...but if you have questions, a call down there would take care of it.

Some of the WAYSIDE series for sale there also were never registered, but we couldn't live without one called "wayside painted lady".

Hornbaker's is a great place to visit. I remember in the mid 90s driving down, and seeing a picture of SHERRY LANE CARR of the cover of an AHS journal. It was the end of life (normal, that is) as I'd known it.

Steve

I have a number of Fred's daylilies from Hornbakers and they have been good additions to my garden. I did not buy them because I 'thought' they were registered, I knew they were not and they are not being pretended to be as the seller of them. I guess it depends on what you want. I don't give a care if the daylily I want and that will bring joy to me in my garden is 'registered' or not. Really, do you like your daylily any less than you did when you bought it just because you now have learned about it? I purchase a lot from Hornbakers, usually the clumps, and I would recommamend the place to anyone looking for good hardy daylilies for our zone and climate. I have never brought one home that has never thrived.

sorry, cut myself off before I meant to. Here is a old snip from the Odebolt, Iowa area paper The Chronicle when they were announcing the fund raising of one of Mr. Smith's daylilies (19 Sept 2002):

"Odebolt Daylilies - The Odebolt Rotary is offering the "Odebolt, Iowa" Daylily for sale. It is a perennial plant which has a blossom of pink blush. Fred Smith of Henderson, IL hybridized and named the plant. Mr. Smith picks his names by selecting small towns in America. The daylily may be purchased from any Rotary member, at First Federal Bank, or at the Prairie Pedlar. The cost is $6.00 per plant".

As I said above, I have a number of his, don't be afraid to try them.

I think this has a lot to do with what kind of garden you have.If these blooms give you pleasure, are good garden plants, and it doesn't bother you to have unnamed daylilies in your garden,then go for it by all means!  Personally, as I've maintained an AHS Display Garden for nearly 10 years as well as been a garden judge for that long, I would not plant unregistered daylilies in the garden.The garden has been on local and regional tours quite a few times, and people who visit expect to see named and registered varieties. Unregistered daylilies can never be eligible for any AHS awards or exhibited in any official shows or even mentioned in the AHS Journal. I know many could care less about that, which is fine, but those things matter to me. I started out with a lot of dayliies from Wilds years ago and didn't bother labeling most of them, but as I learned more and it became more important to grow only named varieties, I got rid of all of the "no-names."Â

Thanks floota, I agree with you.

justmetoo, don't get me wrong. Some of my favorite daylilies in my garden are seedlings. I only wish when I bought the daylily someone would have told me it was not registered. I probably would have planted it in a different place, the garden marker in wrong, neither is hard to correct but extra work. My husband and I have worked hard to get our garden the way we want it and a seedling, yes a pretty seedling, is not what I wanted.

the intention of my initial responses were not to debate registered verses non, but the poster was wondering if they should inform Hornbakers that the daylily was not registered--Hornbakers knows it is not and is not advertizing it as such.

As to registered verses non, if I cared about the AHS or were a display garden, yeah, I'd want only registered, neither is the case with me. I have many registered daylilies and a number of some not. My not registered are from Illinois breeders such as Mr. Smith. Henderson, IL also happens to be in my own local area so I appreciate this breeder. I take some pride in a section of my gardens that those in it are Illinois breed daylilies from Reckcamp, Marsh, Griesbach, Ellison and yes, Fred Smith. I garden for pleasure, am a cottage garden type with 100's of different perennial ect and daylilies are a part of the mix, not my only interest.I do though research all the plants I purchase prior to purchasing them.

I am sure your gardens are lovely and sorry to hear one of Mr. Smith's disappoints you. Dig it up and pitch it or give it away, perhaps someone else will appreciate it.

Judy in Il, I understand what you are saying and why you are feeling mislead. If a plant is sold from a nursery, the buying public assumes that the name attached to the plant is its "real" name, not a garden name someone attaches to an unknown. Obviously, it's pretty lucrative for this nursery to be selling "garden-named" daylilies.

I thank you for bringing this to our attention! This kind of information is invaluable if it saves one other person who visits this forum the disappointment you experienced.

It is a welcome subject here. I didn't know that a dl could have a name without being registered with the AHS. Although I will probably (no, make that "won't") have a display garden, if I order from someone now, I would want it to be registered. And yet I have some very beautiful unknowns that I don't think I can part with. To each his own... rusty bone.

"I only wish when I bought the daylily someone would have told me it was not registered."

jaykd, not to add fuel to the fire and oil to the flames and all that, but the Hornbaker catalog is quite explicit that those are not registered daylilies. You didn't realize it, or perhaps you didn't notice it in the catalog, but "GN," which are the letters accompanying many of the daylilies in the Hornbaker catalog, means "garden name." If you go to the catalog's first page, for example, you'll see the Smith daylily "Amber Coral, MI" followed by those two letters; then, the next daylily in the catalog is ANGEL ROGERS, introduced by Tom Wilson. Then, scroll down a bit, and you'll see that "Antiquity, MO" is noted to be NR, or "not registered." Which in the end is the same thing as GN.

If ever you have any questions about any aspect of a plant for sale in a catalog, just shoot the seller an email - I'm sure he'd be happy to talk plants with you!

And, don't be disappointed because you bought an unregistered daylily. Do you like it? Then just enjoy it! I should tell you that I first stumbled across the Hornbaker web site several years ago, and I was totally charmed by the idea of all those daylilies named for small towns. Naturally, me being me, I made a long list of ones I liked. Did not actually buy, but that had NOTHING to do with the fact that the plants had not been registered. I was much newer to daylilies, and I wanted so many more than I could possibly cram into my tiny yard.

Also, consider the response, whether in catalogs or on the auction, to unregistered Goldner plants. Many of those still go for very high prices. A single fan (!) of the unregistered Goldner daylily Cowboy Scarf recently sold for $81. And the opening bid was $50. Me? I spent rather a bit of time hunting that one down, and while I got a very good buy, I can tell you I paid rather more than you did for your Smith daylily.....

how is your experience and mine (and the auction bidders) different?

So I say: just enjoy your plant. It will undoubtedly give you much pleasure this summer, and for years to come.

The fact that Fred Smith is deceased (is he?), doesn't mean the daylily will never be registered. I don't know the rules -- 'tho I'll wager floota might :) -- but YOU, if you wanted, could register your seedling. I think it'd be a Smith-jkayd daylily in the registration records. Or something like that. You can always contact the AHS registrar (Gretchen Baxter) and find out what the rules are.

Just a little "trivia tidbit," COWBOY SCARF has now been registered! A couple of people ( Kathy Rinke and I think the other one is Diane Pruden) are registering some of Al Goldner's previously unregistered seedlings. So, COWBOY SCARF is officially registered as Goldner-Rinke 08. Sometimes when hybridizers pass on,different people register their daylilies for them. Robin Calderon is registering a bunch of Frank Kropf's seedlings.

Judydu2 this "If a plant is sold from a nursery, the buying public assumes that the name attached to the plant is its "real" name, not a garden name someone attaches to an unknown. Obviously, it's pretty lucrative for this nursery to be selling "garden-named" daylilies"--is really not called for. Trashing a daylily farm you know nothing about is not necessary. Lynxe above is correct in her information she gave. There is noone trying to mislead anyone purchasing their daylilies at Hornbakers.

As Lynxe pointed out the catalog if mail ordering is clear enough. If one were to visit the garden as the original postered stated she did, Hornbakers clearly id's their information on a sign with each daylily. No sneakiness. No prying on the unsuspecting. No reason for you or anyone else to be tarnishing the Hornbakers reputation. It's a very popular farm visited by many, if it's not for you, just don't purchase from them--but no need to rip them to shreds.

How much clearer can Hornbaker's be - GN = Garden Name??

Honoring the name of Fred Smith by showcasing his work hardly seems like a scam to me....more of a kind tribute. I fail to see how a very pretty daylily one moment can be trash the next...especially when all of this was out in the open.

This isn't an ebay scam. This isn't misrepresentation. This is a buyer not reading the sale list properly. After this thread, I would say the Hornbaker's is the one being cheated.

Steve

OK, it's my fault. Sorry this turned into such a mess.

No need to apologize! Far as I'm concerned, you've done me a favor....I'd kind of forgotten about Hornbaker's and those Smith daylilies, but now that you've reminded me, I'll be visiting the web site again, after an absence of a couple of years, and maybe even ordering this time.

floota, that's good news re: COWBOY SCARF. When I got it, it was still unregistered. But I sure wanted it, and baaad, anyway. What Robin is doing with the Frank Kropf daylilies I've known about. There are also Rod Kroemer and Jim Wuersch, who are introducing the last of Ron Valente's plants. And there are all those Reckamp-Klehm intros as well.

I said..."If a plant is sold from a nursery, the buying public assumes that the name attached to the plant is its "real" name, not a garden name someone attaches to an unknown. Obviously, it's pretty lucrative for this nursery to be selling "garden-named" daylilies".

Is there anything in my statement that isn't true? "Lucrative" is a bad word now? Where in that statement did I say scam or misrepresentation? Where am I besmirching a name or trashing a nursey's business?

It's not folly to desire registered dayliles so that parentage, ploidy, plant habits, fertility, faults, etc. can be researched and progeny planned. If this is not important to some, well, that's their decision. But it does matter to others.

I am grateful that it is important enough to some - so that cultivars by Goldner, Kropf, Valente, and others ARE being registered by those who are willing to carry on their work.

Judy,

I am a member of AHS. Parentage, registration and the like are important to me too.

I am also a member of the "buying public", and had no trouble, even when I was just into daylilies, understanding Hornbaker's selling practices.

My first problem with this topic was the tone of the initial questioning....pictures being removed, feelings of being cheated, and questions of what to do. In the light of the ebay scam, I don't think that was a very good start to the topic.

I also question why bringing this information to a forum is performing a public service? Who is being served? Daylily buyers....like me? In what way?

I have not seen Hornbaker's books to comment on how lucrative it is in selling $8 clumps. I don't think that's any of my business.

The fact that a once highly regarded daylily is not longer desired is a shame. Judy from IL isn't wrong for being disappointed..it is what it is. How that disappointment is expressed is what I've strugggled with here.

Steve

psst, Steve, the clumps are not $8. I am assuming the $8 paid stated above was for 2 fans. Clumps at Hornbakers are sold every year as a dig and take and depends on how much of the one desired daylily is available that year. Not all daylilies are available as clumps each year. I usually pay between $25 and $50 for a clump and have gotten anywhere from six or seven fans to over a dozen. For example I paid $35 for a clump of Smith's Coal Run, OH, and one of Klehm's Fragrant Pastel Cheers, yet just $16 for a smaller clump of Varner's Red Volunteer. When Hornbaker's offers one as a clump they post a sign by the selection with the clump price. They dig, wash/rinse and bag the clump for you and away you go. I usually go over several times a summer so I can see what I want when it is in bloom and make notes about what I might want to add to my growing numbers next year. One can always go out during Iris season and select iris and then pick up or have shipped their selection after bloom season. It is worth a stop if one's in the area or passing through. I can't comment on Hornbaker's shipping as I've never had anything shipped to me from there. I did not mean to hog into this thread the way I have, but Hornbaker's does not deserve to be dumped on.

short correction. I misspoke. I paid $16 for Oakes' Red Volunteer, I paid $30 for Varner's Illini Jackpot.

Having not read this thread closely.. I have to comment on registration of daylilies.

How does registration change genetics? Not a drop...yes knowing the genetic lineage is important to most of us.. yet when a plant SHOWS the goods.. who cares. Ponied up internet pics not withstanding.. when a plant SHOWS in your garden.. what is the difference?

When/if a genetic parentage test becomes available for daylilies I think LOTS of people might be surprised at some of the outcomes. Paperwork guarantees nothing.... obviously the great majority of registrations are on the level... but some are surely not. In the majority of those cases accidental pollination is mostly the culprit.. or mislabeling which is not hard to do.

Consider the slew of daylilies registered as 'sdlng X sdlng'.. what does that tell you? Nothing in the end.. yet.. said plant has "paperwork".

Frank Smith is very much alive. He sold his daylily business. But has started over again. Sorry don't know how to add links here on GW!!

Here is a link that might be useful: Frank Smith Daylilies

nanny, the Smith in this case is/was Fred Smith, from up north somewhere. Frank Smith's a southerner. :)

Well I did have a DUH! moment there didn't I?? Sorry 'bout that!