The reason few to none commercially grow Meyer lemons, is due to the fact that they do not survive shipping very well.

Very interesting, John!

I did a year at U.C. Davis, myself...though I was studying Literature, not lemons ;-)

Josh

John:

Hats off to you and thank you for sharing what you have learned with us instead of holding back.
Very kind and I appreciate it.

I too hope to be just as helpful although not all that eductaion behind me, just years of container growing experience.

I have also learned, and benefitted from much information in this forum from a professional horticulturist who has a thriving consulting business and does some teaching/lecturing and writing.
I benefitted from a Master Gardener and a Bonsai expert, scientists, citrus growers, experienced growers,citrus gurus, the average Joes whom have made mistakes and succeeded along the way that come to share and from many others!

I quickly determined that to minimize my frustrations and maximize MY satisfaction, I'd need to do some extensive homework. I began to study the more technical aspects of plant physiology, container culture, and soil science and how it all relates to having healthy trees and have abounded in a wealth if information and success, in particular from a few good friends here.
To share it with others is what makes coming here fun, and I can speak for many others who at one time could only imagine keeping their trees healthy and alive and now do.

It is worth an ounce of my time to pay attention to anyone who tries to derail another persons willingness to help and or good intention. Now, politely correcting misiformation is yet another thing. To me that is welcomed. It is what makes us better.

No need to prove yourself with me John, you have been nothing but a good man here, successful in what you are doing, and always willing to share from the heart, even if one might make a mistake or two in diagnosis or whatever. None of us ever stop learning.

What can we expect for free?
Not much compared to what we have taken away from here! You can't put a price tag on the friends,the help that many of us have recieved thus far, or the great benefits that our trees have recieved all here.:-)

Thanks and pay no mind to anyone that may have unknowingly, I hope, miscalculated your good intentions with their not so nice comments:-)

Mike

I learned from Will Rogers, I think, to never engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed person! Maybe the only thing that concerns me is who has started the rumor that I am somehow a citrus expert? I only posted this message here to dispel any such beliefs or expectations; any advice I offer here is free and given based on my years of struggle and learning. Thanks for the words of support, Mike. Come visit Guatemala one of these days and we can have beers with Meyer lemon.

I don't really believe that myer don't ship well. I have been buying a couple bags of myer lemon from independent grocery store. Those are 3 pounds in nylon bags. I would have to say they have the most beautiful shiny skins. Of course the wonderful delicate citrus smell that no other lemon has. They are softer than the regular hard lemon, but handles shipping pretty well, because nothing would be on Canadian's market if they don't ship well.

If it makes you feel better John I never thought you were a citrus expert, in fact you proved the opposite quite clearly.

I wish you well on your enterprise. Perhaps paying children 2 cents per hour will tip you over the edge to profitability.

Unnecessary comment, Bamboo.

Josh

I am in agreement with Josh Bamboo. Sorry

Mike

I apologize, the comment was mean but how far was it from the mark? Let me reword it in a nicer more PC way.

Fact is though Myers have been tried before and proved to be not profitable in bulk production in the United States. If they could be grown in bulk profitably they would do so in California or Florida. The single biggest cost for production is the labor involved in caring for the citrus and harvesting them. There is a reason why people start farms like this in third world countries.....cheap exploitable labor and that labor is often the young.

Bamboo

There is a polite way to disagree and then there is your way. I don't see the reason behind personally attacking someone for offering advice whether you agree or disagree. Why haven't you gone through and criticized mine or Mike's or Josh's or heck anyone else who has offered advise. Is it simple because we haven't claimed to be "experts" Well who here truly is. What have you brought to the argument to prove that you are. Ive never meet anyone here personally or seen any evidence that someone is an expert. Ill I can do is read what they have written and form an opinion from that and experience of others who may have tried their advice. I have learned a ton about citrus in the last few years from people here, but who am I to say that what they offer is wrong.

Im not going to get into the argument over using cheap labor to increase profits because that happens here with illegal immigrants some of which I am sure work on your Florida farms. That's a whole other discussion which Im not going to get into.

good luck
Mike

Mike,

If you look through my 100's of posts and I only post here, the Florida board and the Orchard board you will not find I have ever had a harsh word with anyone before....not once. I am helpful and polite whether I agree with the poster or disagree with them.

Want to know why I am harder on John? Fine, two reasons.

First he keeps crowing about cornering the market on Meyer lemons....do you understand that Guatemala is second only to Ecuador in the exploitation of children as laborers. It is also one of the worst countries for abuse of farm workers. Do a google search and look for yourself. Migrant workers in the US live like gods compared to those in countries like Guatemala.

Second he posted blatantly false information.

Let's clear the air about Guatemala and child/cheap labor... Guatemala has very harsh laws against child labor and social programs to discourage it and encourage school attendance. At my farm I don't even allow children to water my garden. My farm administrator has a nice house, a motorcycle a Doberman dog, free electricity and water and cable TV, a small herd of goats to provide milk for his family, and a large piece of land with bananas, vegetables, and a wide variety of fruits. He lives very well compared to many Guatemalans and he, as all my workers are paid considerably more than the minimum wage. My lowest skilled workers are paid more than $10 per day; and I know in the US that seems like nothing; but here it is a living wage and I don't really have the option of hiring US level workers... sometimes you get what you pay for. I am not growing Meyer lemons in Guatemala to exploit anyone or anything; it is simply where I have chosen to live. I am a 5th generation California agriculturalist with a degree in agriculture from UCDavis; and I have travelled in 48 countries and 46 of the 50 US States as an international agribusiness specialist; so, while I am certainly no expert in citrus, and have never claimed to be, I am willing to share what I do know when I can.
Anyone who has concerns about Guatemala, or is just curious, should plan a visit; I would be happy to show you the REAL Guatemala, not the one that the press so often portrays in such bad light.

Bamboo

Fair enough. I havent seen hardly any of your posts and I apologize if I sound like I was labeling you as a harsh person. I wasnt trying to pass judgment on you. In fact I'm sure you are very helpful and nice person. I'm just more bothered about the way this discussion has gone and the accusations made.

That's some information that I wasn't fully aware of. If that's true, which I'm not implying it isn't, you still are accusing him of something you cant prove that he is doing or would do. Based on the information at hand I could see how someone would assume that it could happen, however I prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. Dont get me wrong if people are being abused especially children I cant help but feel terrible about that situation and have anger against those who would do that. That doesnt mean that John is or has intentions to do so.

either way I'm not here to choose sides and I will move on.

Regards
Mike

Meyers are a wonderful variety of lemon, although if you need a high-acid lemon/citrus they're not going as well. We like a very lemon-y Hollandaise, for example, so it takes twice as much Meyer juice and correspondingly, more egg yolks for binding.

It is not that they don't ship well. I ship mine to friends all the time, in fact. It's that they don't KEEP well, compared to the commercial Eureka/Lisbon variety, which will keep months at room temps. Meyers, even under refrigeration, do not keep as well. The fruit falls off the tree much quicker than with the E/L varieties. My neighbor has the Eureka, I have three Meyers, all in-ground. The Eureka will hold its fruit for over a year. No Meyer will do this. It'll hold ripe fruit for a few months, but then it just starts to rot and falls off.

Nor do they bear as well. I have three Improved Meyers and even mature, it takes two of them to match the crop of one Eureka lemon tree (not a dwarf, BTW, but a fully mature 37' tree planted decades ago).

The OP's venture might very well be a commercial success as he will be bringing his Meyer crop to market when prices are generally at their highest. I have never understood why supermarkets deliberately charge so much for lemons during the winter months when the crop is at its peak. I wish him much luck in his new venture.

John,

Really?

"Let's clear the air about Guatemala and child/cheap labor... Guatemala has very harsh laws against child labor and social programs to discourage it and encourage school attendance."

That is your quote. I laughed out loud when I read it.....lets see what independent sources have to say on it shall we?

Guatemala Region Americas
Population 11,090,000
Population under 18 5,650,000
Total Child Labour
NATIONAL STATISTICS

65% of child labourers are linked with agriculture. (ILO-IPEC, El trabajo infantil en America Central, 2-6 August 1993)

* In Guatemala, 2.7 % of children from 7 to 9 years are registered as a part of the economically active population refining their activities in family work. The majority of them are boys and are located in the rural area. In General, for 1998, it is calculated that 1.6 millions children and adolescents participated formally, informally or marginally in economic activities forced by poverty (56 % of them didn't receive any salary, welfare protection or vacation and 46 % worked without sufficient legal protection. (DNI, "La prevenci�n y eliminaci�n de las peores formas de trabajo infantil y adolescente un reto para la democracia y el desarrollo humano." citing Guatemala, The Rural Face of Human Development, 1999 DNI- Costa Rica, 2001)

* Some 2 million children toil at hard, dangerous and poorly paid jobs in Guatemala, the country with the second-highest rate of child exploitation in Latin America, behind Ecuador. ("Two Million Children Work In Guatemala", EFE News Service, 16 September 2000, citing the report on childhood issued by the Guatemalan Archbishop's Human Rights Office)

* According to the National Statistics Institute, from 1998 to 1999 there were 326,095 children doing paid work, and 495,780 doing chores in the home. An estimated 80 percent of work accidents involve 15 to 18 year old workers who lack proper safety training. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 2001, March 2002)

* 23% of the country's children between the ages of 10-14 worked in Guatemala. ("Two Million Children Work In Guatemala", EFE News Service, 16 September 2000, citing the report on childhood issued by the Guatemalan Archbishop's Human Rights Office)

* Agriculture is the most child-labour intensive industry, employing around 320,000 children, followed by manufacturing, with some 65,000 child labourers. ("Two Million Children Work In Guatemala", EFE News Service, 16 September 2000, citing the report on childhood issued by the Guatemalan Archbishop's Human Rights Office)

* Working children account for 17% of Guatemala's labour force. ("Two Million Children Work In Guatemala", EFE News Service, 16 September 2000, citing the report on childhood issued by the Guatemalan Archbishop's Human Rights Office)

* For the year 2000, the ILO projects that there will be 219,000 economically active children, 51,000 girls and 168,000 boys between the ages of 10-14, representing 14.18% of this age group. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)

* The Association for Girls and Boys in Central America (PROVINCE) estimates that approximately 2 million children work. (US Dept of State, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - 1999, 25 February 2000)

* 154,492 children between 10-14 years and 497,372 between 15-19 years are economically active. (ILO, Yearbook of Labour Statistics, 1999)

* An ILO/UNICEF study notes there are approximately 900,000 children between 10-17 years employed in Guatemala. (US Dept of Labor, Sweat and Toil of Children: Efforts to Eliminate Child Labour, 1998)

* Estimates put the population of Guatemalan child labourers at over 200,000. ("Child Labour Continues in Guatemala", 13 December 1998)

* Of the 3.7 million children between the ages of 7-14 years, 152,000 are child workers (4.1%). (US Dept of Labor, Sweat and Toil of Children: Efforts to Eliminate Child Labour, 1998, citing the study by the Secretary of Social Welfare of the Confederation of United Union of Guatemala, 1995)

* In 1995, there were 221,000 economically active children, 46,000 girls and 175,000 boys between the ages of 10-14, representing 16.22% of this age group. (ILO, International Labour Office - Bureau of Statistics, Economically Active Population 1950-2010, STAT Working Paper, ILO 1997)

* One million Guatemalan children, aged 7 and above are working. (US Dept of Labor, Sweat and Toil of Children, 1994, citing "Children Bear Brunt of Guatemalan Civil Strife", Notimex Mexican News Service, 8 June 1992)

* According to the 1994 census, there are some 130,802 child labourers between the ages of 10-14. (Casa Alianza, Ann Birch, "Guatemala's Brothels are Another Workplace", Child Labour News Service (CLNS), Global March International Secretariat, 1 November 1999)

GENERAL NOTES AND OBSERVATIONS

* Many children work in the streets and at night. Some children beg to get by, and some are engaged in such dangerous activities as prostitution, drug trafficking, the running of contraband and robbery. (IACHR, Country Report - Guatemala, 2001)

* According to the ILO, child workers are found mainly in cities, particularly in the capital, and in Quetzaltenango in the west, Escuintla in the south and Puerto Barrios on the Caribbean coast. ("Two Million Children Work In Guatemala", EFE News Service, 16 September 2000, citing the report on childhood issued by the Guatemalan Archbishop's Human Rights Office)

* The UN Committee on the Rights of the Child is seriously concerned that the majority of children of school age are not attending school, but are involved both in the informal and formal work sectors. (UN CRC, Concluding observations on Guatemala, 1996)

*

I have no doubt Guatemala is great for you.....if you ask the king who is fat and full drinking wine how the kingdom is and you ask the peasant starving while toiling in the fields you will probably get two very different answers.

http://www.globalmarch.org/worstformsreport/world/guatemala.html

http://www.waronwant.org/overseas-work/informal-economy/guatemalan-child-labourers

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/US_ThirdWorld/US_Guat.html

I guess it is up to each of us to determine who is telling the truth...you who has a vested interest in exploiting the people or humanitarian organizations that have no monetary interest.

Please note that all of the cited "data" are from more than a decade ago; I won't try to defend any of that; but it is not so today, barring of course some (still too much) child labor related to poor subsistence agriculture in the still developing areas. You know, when I was a child in the USA I lived on a farm and I did a lot of work that we called chores; funny no one reported to the United Nations that my parents were exploiting child labor.

2007

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/3/13/harvest_of_shame_report_accuses_child

2010

http://ihscslnews.org/view_article.php?id=302

So much for your decade old.

A parent having their own child work their farm is a much different situation than foreign land owners making children work their fields for 12 hours a day for $10 whole dollars. Unlike the United States in Guatemala most of the land is owned by the elite and of course the carpetbaggars that swoop in to make a buck exploiting the natives.

Bamboo Rabbit,

Don't you have anything better to do with your spare time than to argue with John?

You don't sound like a happy person.

John: Good luck with your ventures. I admire your sense of enthusiasm!

Brad

This is supposed to be a citrus forou, where good people share what they know with people who seek to learn... could we please not make it into an international war of ideolobgy.

t

I have said my piece.......it just rubs me the wrong way when people exploit those in poverty then brag about it. From the emails I received it seems others are bothered by it as well.

Unless you have factual evidence that John is exploiting impoverished children,
you are slandering his name. More than a few people are bothered by your presentation
and insistence, as well.

Josh

Josh!

I'll bet if the two of these gentleman took the time to have a few fresh lemons over a drink or two, they might have a lot more in common than they think and get to know each the 'real' each other.

It happens that John has invited me for a visit and that alone tells me he is a better man than what he is being potrayed to be.

I am a bit surprised the Garden Web police have not seen this yet?

Now, moving on to a much happier thread. See you there buddy!

Mike

Greenman,

Slander is spoken, if it is written down it is called libel. If you don't the difference between the two terms perhaps you are not the best judge of whether it is occurring or not.

Paying the poor $10 for a 12 hour work day IS EXPLOITATION. Bragging about it is simply obscene.

Rabbit, this is the US. We exploit overseas labor in almost everything we use. Like it or not, as Pogo says, "We have met the enemy and he is us." Look in the mirror, then read this article and see if you still feel like pointing a finger at johnmerr.

A Trip to China Can Make a Guy Hate His iPhone
NY TImes September 29, 2011

(excerpted) MIKE DAISEY, one of the great solo storytellers of contemporary theater, has traveled the world performing sharp, polemical and extemporaneous monologues about Amazon.com, national security, James Frey and a host of other subjects. He brings his latest piece, "The Agony and the Ecstasy of Steve Jobs," to the Public Theater from Oct. 11 through Nov. 13.

Half of the show profiles Mr. Jobs, Apple's former chief executive, the brilliant micromanager who acknowledged in 2004 that he was battling pancreatic cancer. The other half describes Mr. Daisey's trip to Shenzhen, China, where he posed as a wealthy businessman to infiltrate factories where Apple products and other electronics are made. He says he witnessed inhumane conditions and interviewed workers outside of factories who said they were as young as 12.
*****

(The NYTimes is a subscriber site, but visitors can read up to 20 articles/month for free)

Here is a link that might be useful: NYTimes: Apple and its China factories

Bamboo,
"Semantics: the last refuge of the cornered liberal...."
You are slandering his name. And that's the long and short of it.

Mike,
I don't know about lemons....pistols at dawn more likely...

Now, as you say, onto a happier thread ;-)

Josh

Greenman,

Once again.....if it is written down it is libel.....slander is spoken, verbal.

For the record I am a very conservative tea party type republican.

Jkom,

And for the same reason I am not a fan of the Chinese, or the North Koreans or or or......it is exploitation. If John would have simply talked about his operation I would not have said a word....but bragging about it while standing on the backs of those in poverty so deep we can't even fathom it rubbed me wrong. All it takes is a heart to understand.

Mmmmmm...do you shop at Wal-Mart, Bamboo?

I searched for a site to learn more about my lemon tree, not to listen to some political hack sit in judgement of those who provide it. Take that crap to a political blog somewhere else, I'm here for the lemons!!!

My tree is dropping fruit and blossems, it is 4 years old and 6' high, I have fertilized once each quarter. the tree will cover with blooms then produce no fruit. Help!

If your tree is a Meyer and you are in the Northern hemisphere, this is the "normal" time of year for the "second" bloom, the primary being in early Spring. It is common for most of the blooms to be discarded during this bloom, especially for a young tree. For my garden trees, I have also noticed that if I am a little over generous in feeding my Meyers, that will often be followed by a flush of bloom, but produce few fruits. Hope this helps you; I would give it a lighter dose of fertilizer about mid December and then hope for a strong bloom and fruit set in early Spring.

I'd like to learn more about Meyer Lemons as well. I certainly don't need to hear the highly charged political garbage. It has no place here. Quite frankly I can't stand what has happened among people on the garden web. It used to be a fun place.

I certainly don't see how someone would have the nerve to accuse the original poster of using exploited child labor based on what he has written. To make that assumption based purely on the country he is living in is just absurd.

We need to look in our own back yards before jumping all over someone else.

Now on to lemon information....please. I'm new to growing citrus and need all the info I can get. Without sorting through several unrelated posts.

bamboo, your comments were totally unwarranted. useless comments that had no bearing on John's post. you assumed (and you know what happens when you "assume" stuff) that just b/c he was in Guatemala that he was using cheap child labor. basically, you were pigeon-holing/stereo-typing John with those that really exploit children. it'd be like us saying all muslims are terrorists, and brainwash their young men to blow up the infidel westerners.

a quick search shows that in 2008 the average Guatemalan worker makes around $1700 per year, thats like $32 per week. so in that country $10 per day is not exploitation. compare apples to apple and oranges to oranges. did you know back about 50years ago, the average american income was around 5-6K per year. the cost of a loaf of bread was like a dime, now its like $3. my parents/uncles/aunts bought brand new cars for less than $2000 back in the day. so $10 per day over there is good.

same for the immigration problem, most of them are hard working family people, they can work here for minimum wage, send some money back home and live comfortably compared to what they make back in their home country. yeah, i can say that b/c my parents and some of my relatives came to the US dirt poor, they worked hard, made a ton more money here than they could ever back home, saved up, bought themselves homes, and cars, sent money back home so my grandparents and one of my aunt/uncle/cousin could afford a decent but small 2 bedroom condo.

sandy808, what kind of info are you looking for on citrus? Big difference between pot culture and in-ground plantings.

We grow Meyers in the ground and have a single Bearss lime as well. I don't contribute very often because most people who grow Meyers here are in frost regions, so they have them in containers, which need very different care.

Johnmerr, what grafting method do you use on your Guatemala farm? Here in Fiji, I use cleft grafting because it is not limited by whether the bark slips on the rootstock, but I'm a beginner and want to learn. The bark slipping seems associated with the flushes of growth, which is unpredicatable on my rootstock. Would like to learn how you graft.

Thanks,
John Caldeira
Rakiraki, Fiji

John... I have tried a lot of different methods with many different plants. With citrus, here in Guatemala, very similar to Fiji... Everyone does T-bud grafting for citrus. My nurseryman guru, last year did 4,150 bud grafts of Meyer lemon on Macrophylla rootstock and did not lose a single tree... BUT, he is a magician. I have tried doing it myself and consider myself lucky if I get 50%... it is an art; I don't have it, so I hire people who do

John M, I wish your nurseryman would share his/her secrets with us. Specifically, I want to learn how the nurseryman knows whether a rootsock will accept a bud graft, since growth flushes in the tropics are so irregular. Also, whether bark slippage on the scion wood matters.

John C

So long as the tree is actively growing, it doesn't seem to matter what time of year; we have done budding at lots of different times and it seems to work as well. Most budding is done in a nursery environment with young seedling rootstocks that are very well cared for and that is maybe a bit different than grafting to a tree that is more mature and planted in the ground; I don't know about that; as I said, I certainly am no expert. You might ask a local nurseryman where you are.

Johnmerr:

Just curious. Does Macrophylla rootstock have any effect on the quality of the fruit? If you are in a location protected from from hurricanes, with a rich volcanic soil, cuttings may be another way to go.

Larry

Larry,
Macrophylla does not have any notable affect on fruit quality. I wouldn't grow citrus in volcanic soil, if I had a choice; volcanic soil binds the phosphorus, so you have to add a lot of extra P; fertilizer tends to leach out of the root zone more quickly also. The roots of cuttings or from seedlings tend to be weaker and more susceptible to root rot or drowning during our rainy season. I chose Macrophylla for my operation because it is very vigorous, relatively resistant, and I am planting my trees close to hedgerow them. I get full production at 3 years, 3-400 fruits per tree. Anyway, as I have said before it really is still just an experiment; I may find that the Macrophylla is a bit too vigorous, in which case I will choose another for future plantings.

johnmerr(11)

please could you update us of your undertakings. how is it going. Thanks

That's awesome John, always makes me happy to read about your success, goals, and accomplishments with the Meyer Lemon. By far my and my families favorite citrus

The motto of my company.... If life gives you lemons, pray they are Meyers

johnmerr(11)

Thank you hard working man, Thank You =Spasibo