The most important thing for us to know is what picture you have in mind for this land and the groves. Have you seen some groves that are essentially what you are aiming for?

If you are looking for essentially natural looking woodland groves, then you have the problem of going through relatively long periods of time when the woodland is developing, requiring thinning and pruning, before anything like the final result is realized. If what you want are more "ornamental" groves or groups of trees, the development process is somewhat different.

Without knowing just what you have in mind, let me tell you about some woodlands not too far from you that I thought were especially beautiful. Near the Jamestown historic reconstruction there are some groves of mixed loblolly pine, tulip tree, and some red maple, that I think are especially beautiful. I have seen forest stands in the Nantahala National forest in NC which are mixed white pine and tuliptree that are among the most beautiful woodlands I have ever seen.

But these are natural forest stands and to get there from an essentially bare field is not an easy thing.

Another option for a portion of your land would be to just leave it alone and see what grows on its own. I assume that some loblolly pine would come up, but you could have some other kinds of trees also. The only thing you might want to do with this "natural area" would be to eliminate any exotics, especially the vines, that might appear. This might result in a nice woodland with a mixture of trees.

You talk about "groves." Maybe you want to have three or so separate groves with other parts of the 5 acres more open, perhaps with other kinds of ornamental trees and/or open alleys for views. Maybe each of the groves can be different in some ways--either have different mixtures of trees and/or have different kinds of intermediate treatments.

To answer your one question about spacing of loblolly pines. Probably the best initial spacing for a forest planting of loblolly pine is 8 X 8. Sometimes they are planted 6 X 6, but this is probably best only for plantations where a pulpwood thinning is envisioned. And this requires more trees, which cost more and require more work to plant. As the trees grow they need to be thinned and the lower limbs pruned off as they die. Spacing for large mature loblolly pine would probably be something like 20 feet in rows, but perhaps more like 25 feet in block forest plantings. Exact optimum spacing can vary a bit, depending on the richness of the growing site. These are average spacings--there is no reason why two or three trees cant grow very close together if there is adequate room on other sides. If these trees are coming up on their own, then you may not want to plant and nature will decide on the initial spacing.

For hollies, get the native American holly, Ilex opaca. McLean Nurseries near Baltimore is a good place to get some good ones. But they will be very small.

Before you begin it would be a very good idea to find out what kind or kinds of soil(s) you have and what their capabilities are. You can go to your local ASCS office and get a soil survey book with maps for your county. This book has everything anyone could ever want to know about their soils. In your case it will tell you what species of trees will grow well on your soil and how fast they will grow, etc.

Maybe another issue will be the protection of your young trees from deer--this can be a real headache, especially over larger areas.

--Spruce

Those are some great places to see!

If you are up for another short drive somtime, you might also enjoy the Currituck Banks NEER reserve. Go about halfway out the boardwalk, then cut north up the wilderness trail. There's a good bit that's mature loblollies, with mostly live oak & holly midstory, also a few maple & black gum, with serviceberry, vaccinium & other shrubs understory. It's quite pretty and will give you a good sense of the mix and spacing of a native grove. It may be a bit wetter than your site, but I think you'll like the feel.

If you continue walking north, the pines turn more to longleaf - spectactular! You may want to mix your pines a bit. I'd want some longleaf, Virginia pine, and slash too. P. rigida × taeda is doing very well for me on a site much like yours. On such a large lot variety is good, and safer. Add Redcedar in the open areas, Southern Red Oak, Myrica cerifera, etc... and a mix of native srubs with berries for the birds & critters.

spruceman and sandyhill:

Thank you for your questions and suggestions -- along with your advice about places to visit. Your posts caused me to realize that my post was not as clear as I thought. Your questions are helping to clarify my thinking (I think)

I am answering your questions and trying to clarify issues. I will finish tomorrow.

- Photos
I have some photos taken before the hurricane and others taken earlier this week (before and after). I have a list of the soils in different areas. The area where I envisioned groves is about 300 feet from the house and includes Woodstock fine sandy loam. I ws advised that this is a big improvement over the Pocaty muck near a swale - a VDOT ditch that got blocked 20+ years ago - that's a long story.

I plan to have some pics tomorrow and will upload them

spruceman wrote, "The most important thing for us to know is what picture you have in mind for this land and the groves. Have you seen some groves that are essentially what you are aiming for?"

Not exactly. I used the term "grove" to describe circumscribed areas where I could plant trees and shrubs to make a woodland environment. The idea of planting "groves" was appealing because the idea of reforesting this much land was so daunting.

The groves would be 300-500 feet from the house and would help to screen the house from the road. I'd like this area to be low maintenance. Loblollies drop so much stuff, create an endless source of mulch, so it seemed logical to include them.

You wrote, "You talk about 'groves.' Maybe you want to have three or so separate groves with other parts of the 5 acres more open, perhaps with other kinds of ornamental trees and/or open alleys for views. Maybe each of the groves can be different in some ways--either have different mixtures of trees and/or have different kinds of intermediate treatments."

Yes! That's exactly what I want to do. Thanks for expressing my thoughts so clearly. : >)
You wrote, "Another option for a portion of your land would be to just leave it alone and see what grows on its own. I assume that some loblolly pine would come up, but you could have some other kinds of trees also."

About 25-30% is "left alone land." Part is in a low area that is often wet, especially in winter and spring. The vegetation is so thick, it's difficult to get through without a machete. Southern bayberries and privet grow there - and an incredible assortment of vines, most of which have thorns. Birds and other wildlife love it. I'd like to make a path for easier access and control / get rid of the vines with thorns. This is not a high priority right now.

Another part of the "left alone land" is the loblolly plantation - hundreds, maybe thousands of them, growing an inch or two apart, along with Eastern junipers, American hollies, southern bayberries, privet, persimmons.

The other high priority is to select and plant several large trees near the house. It's very hard to choose.

We lived in a small cottage on a 1/3 acre lot for 10 years before we built this house. Although we are less than 1/4 mile away from the cottage, the conditions here are more variable and very different. Wind is a huge issue.

I have been trying to analyze these issues. Here is an example.

When I got home from work tonight, I planted 8 small conifers - junipers and arborvitae - as part of a wind screen. When I dug holes for the first six, the shovel went in like a hot knife through butter. The soil was soft and black with good texture. I was surprised. When I moved 6 feet away to dig the seventh hole, I hit what felt like concrete. I had to use a mattock to dig that hole. What a difference 6 feet can make.

I want to thank you for your encouragement and good ideas. You described what I am attempting to do. Maybe I can devise and implement a plan!

Take care,
Pam

For the area that is going to be left to see what comes up: This area can be a challenge, but I would hope a pleasant one. I have a similar area on my place, but without the heavy reproduction of loblolly or any other one species. My most common species that is seeding in naturally is white ash, which unfortunately may be attacked by the emerald ash borer before too long.

Perhaps the best thing to do with the loblollies, of which you obviously have too many, is to leave most of them alone, even though they may seem too crowded for now. For at least a while they will grow OK and the stronger ones will dominate. Later you can try to thin them out where you have more than one tree competing strongly for the same place. I would think you could wait until they are about 10 feet tall before doing anything.

EXCEPT, where the loblollies are crowding out some more unusual kind of tree that you may want to preserve and encourage as a part of your grove. On my place I have a special fondness for persimmon, and on the 4 acres or so that I am letting nature have a primary hand in planting, I make sure that I cut away any other trees that impinge on their growing space. So as the stand grows up, just look for the more unusual and special trees that you want to preserve and keep the loblollies or other trees from crowding them too much. I am a big fan of American hollies, so I would make sure some of those have good growing space. They can do OK as an understory tree, but they produce better foliage and more berries if given more light. You may have a greater variety of trees coming up in this area than you might think. I walk through my area all the time and am often finding something new growing.

As for your area with the vines--I don't know what kinds of vines you have, but some of the exotics can totally overwhelm an area and ruin it. If you are not sure what you have growing there and how dangerous they may be, contact your local ASCS or ag extension and see what you have and what control measures you can take. If you wait too long things can get so out of hand that you may have to make some tough and unpleasant decision later. Here in the Winchester area some areas of woods have been completely destroyed by these vines and the only solution is to kill everything and start over.

I have vines coming up in my "natural area" and am struggling to control them--if I don't this area will be nothing but a mess. They will pull down all the young trees before they have much of a chance.

Just a couple of ideas for trees you might want to have, but my recommendations depend a lot on what will do well in your soil. For fall color, in your part of the country generally, the sweetgum are wonderful. I already mentioned tuliptree. I think red maple can be wonderful, especially for fall color. And oaks--you must have oaks. Eastern white oak is the finest. But in some areas in southern and eastern VA hardwoods do not do nearly so well as the pines.

And one of my all time favorite trees is the baldcypress.

Well, have fun, and if you have any questions/ideas you want to run by me, please do.

--Spruce

Well... Spruce is pretty much reading my mind.

I'd go with the native mixes, vary your groves, and have fun. I would NOT try to move a 10' pine however, so it might be a good idea to relocate some of the volunteers while they are small.

I'd put bald cypress & black gum in the wet areas for sure.

Thorny vines in your area are most apt to be Smilax spp. which are hard to walk through, but good for wildlife, and native. Don't panic about those, but do trim as needed to give the little trees room and create a path.

How can I thank you for your advice and wise counsel? I know it takes a long time to answer these questions, time when you could be outside ...

Some little loblollies? I guess not, it sounds like you both have plenty.

Now I have a clearer idea about what to do and not do. I need to make decisions about trees. I love bald cypress and tupelo trees too. I have the perfect place for them, a place near the water where they often grow naturally.

Spruce, persimmons grow in pure sand here. They survive wind, salt water, and storms that often bring a foot of sand or more. This photo was taken after TS Ernesto paid a visit last September:

http://www.harborhouselaw.com/photos/06/persim.post.ernesto.jpg

This photo was taken after Ernesto's little brother rolled in three weeks later and left another foot of sand. I was not optimistic about the persimmons when I took this photo(persimmons marked with arrows)

http://www.harborhouselaw.com/photos/06/persim.path.sandy.pt.jpg

There are now several very small persimmons along this path - these guys are survivors.
I'll ask the extension people about the Eastern white oak, other recommendations for trees, and how to manage the vines.

sandyhill, I saved your recommendations from the discussion of heat tolerant conifers.

This is truly a wonderful place to learn.

Pam

Speaking of trees, I just read an article about the Remarkable Trees of Virginia Project - you have to see the photo of the water tupelo to believe it:

http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/story.php?relyear=2006&itemno=595

BLACKSBURG, Va., November 1, 2006 -- Virginia Tech forestry professor and Extension specialist Jeffrey Kirwan and outdoor author/lecturer Nancy Ross Hugo will publish a book in 2008 about remarkable trees in Virginia that will commemorate Virginias first Arbor Day in 1908.

"To date, white oak, which grows extraordinarily well in Virginia, tops the nomination list ... After 70 nominations for the white oak, the tallies for the most nominated species so far have been 23 for willow oak, 17 American sycamore, 16 American elm, 15 Southern magnolia, 11 live oak, 10 sugar maple, 9 Southern red oak, 8 flowering dogwood, 8 American beech, and 8 Eastern red cedar."

Remarkable Trees of Virginia Project

http://www.cnr.vt.edu/4h/remarkabletree/

Good grief, it's tomorrow already.

Pam

snadyhill and Pam:

When I suggested that the pines could be left to grow to about 10 feet tall before thinning them out, I was not suggesting any be moved. My understanding is that they are coming in very thick, so there are, I would think, enough everywhere. I would just cut them down.

Of course if these is some special place where you want one and none are coming up there, yes, I would move them when they are much smaller. So when they are to be thinned, I would just cut them down to make room for another tree. And, if there is some preferred tree of another species that needs more room sooner, cut them sooner.

--Spruce

Pam,
A lot depends on what you want. A big loblolly will achieve 25' crown width if allowed room to expand.
One method for small groups/groves of trees is to plant them in triangles of 3.

Loblollies are typically planted 8-10' apart in pine plantations. At around 10 years, the crowns typically grow together and most vegetation underneath them dies. At around 15-20 years these trees are thinned to about 12-20' spacing for final growth to timber. The crowns will once again grow together and lock-out sunlight below. This is designed to produce tall trees with clean trunks for timber. Once the crowns lock, nearly nothing grows below, and the ground is blanketed with pine straw, sort of a pine tree desert under the canopy. This may or may not fit in with what you intend, but the info can be helpful in deciding spacing for what you are trying to achieve.

To allow single specimens to grow to full potential with most limbs not shaded out, plant at greater than 24' spacing. Individuals could be planted closer together in clumps/groves (or triangles), but the spacing between the groves should be further than 24', lest the groves grow together. It is not unusual in a wild forest to see 4-5 full size pines in clumps with as close as 8' spacing, but this clump may be separated from other trees by 16-24'.

Of course if you have area saturated with seedlings, simply pick the best ones and cull the others. Space them so that the crowns don't quite touch for maximum growth. You'll probably be culling every 2-3 years.

I just planted a triangle of loblollies seedlings spaced at 18' apart to provide partial shade to an arbor. The nearest trees are singles over 30' away.

scotjute: If you plant single specimens, aren't they more likely to fall if hit by high winds in a storm? I thought with pines, there is safety in numbers.

On the other hand, I've heard that single specimens with plenty of space grow strong so maybe that rule does not always apply.

Spruce, I have a question about baldcypresses. Dirr says it "makes it's greatest statement in groupings or groves" so I bought 3 trees today to plant them in a "grouping or grove" with Nyssa sylvatica (assuming I can find this tree). I read that baldcypresses grow 50-70 ft high, 20-30 feet wide. What do you suggest re: spacing? I'd like to leave plenty of room between them.

Do you have suggestions re: sources for Nyssa sylvatica and Eastern white oak? Should I put this question on the Trees forum?

Are you getting tired of my questions yet? : )

Thanks for everything,
Pam

Single growing pines should be fine, unless you have a hurricane.

For a hurricane, the baldcypress are best--I don't live in an area where these trees are native, so I have seen hundreds, not thousands. But I have never seen one damaged in any way. I know they have a reputation for being especially resistant to all kinds of storm damage.

As for the spacing: You can do anything you want with these baldcypress trees. I think they are really wonderful as single specimens, but the grouping idea is good also. I planted four here, and three of them were in a group. Spacing--there is no rule for a group of three, and to be perfectly honest, I don't really know what the spacing should be in a forest planting, which is always my basic reference point. Not that I space trees for ornamental purposes as I would have them spaced in a mature forest, but it gives me a reference point. I would have to go out and measure my spacing to be accurate, but I planted mine about 20 to 25 feet apart. They could easily be 40 feet apart and eventually work together as a group.

Most baldcypress that I am familiar with when young grow in a moderately narrow conical form (there was a discussion of one in Texas here a while back that seemed different), but as they age they grow much broader and lose the conical shape. But that takes a hundred years or more, and these trees can live for a thousand years.

So, why did I plant mine as close as I did? I am 67 years old and may live for another 30 or so (my father made 98), so in my lifetime the 20+ foot spacing will have a very nice effect. I can lie down on my back and look up and see these beautiful green spires all at one time soaring into the sky. When these trees get much older the crowns will begin to touch. I am sure they will have a wonderful effect then, but different, for future generations to enjoy.

Not too far from Washington, D.C. is a nursery that had a lot of these baldcypresses growing spaced maybe 40 feet or more apart--there must have been a dozen or more of these trees. All retaining their conical shape, but 50 or 60 feet high. That place was beautiful with these trees--Sometimes I went there just to see the trees with their new leaves in spring, which is especially beautiful.

So have fun with these trees--get a lot of them and plant them singly, in tight groups, or looser groups, or maybe even in a row. Wow! Nothing like them!

As for the white oak and blackgum--try Forest Farm online. Most of their trees are very small, but sometimes they have 5 or 6 footers. For fast delivery in really fresh condition, have them shipped air freight--worth the extra expense.

Or, if you have a good nursery near you, maybe someone will order some for you from a wholesale nursery--next year. I see the blackgum in stock at nurseries more often than white oak, but if you drive around to all the places within reach, you may get lucky. I found my white oak at a local nursery that has almost no stock--ever! So you never know.

--Spruce

Spruce:

Thanks for the advice about baldcypresses. I'll definitely plant them closer and won't worry too much about the loblollies. Hurricanes are an issue here.

I understand about planting things closer, I'm 61. My mother is 87, in good health. Both grandmothers lived into late 90s. Since medical experts say "60 is the new 40," I figure I'll be around until 120 or so. In case I'm not, I'd like to see the baldcypresses get some size on them and watch the spires.

Today was to be a big planting day but the ONLY snowstorm of the season began at 2 am, ended at noon. Now it's just COLD with winds gusting to 25+.

Since planting was out, I decided to find the eastern white oak and black tupelo. How hard could this be? The white oak is ranked as the #1 tree in the "Remarkable Trees of VA Project."

I called every nursery and garden center between Deltaville and Richmond (85 miles away) and struck out. The people I spoke to didn't know what a white oak or tupelo was, or where to find them. Not interested either. The experience was illuminating.

After several fruitless hours on the Internet, I went to the Virginia Native Plant Society website, they have a list of nurseries. I ordered 4 trees from NativeTrees.net (in Ohio): the oak, the tupelo, a serviceberry, and a sourwood. The "to be planted" nursery continues to grow.

Thanks again for your advice and suggestions, I've taken it to heart. It sounds like trees have been your passion for years.

Take care,
Pam

Pam:

Yes, a long time--since I was five. Somehow my parents got a copy of the original edition of G.H. Collingwoods Knowing Your Trees. Of course I couldn't really read it, but the pictures in this original edition is the finest collection of illustrative tree pictures I have ever seen. During subsequent editions, one-by-one many of these pictures were dropped, probably because of worn plates or something. Get a copy of the original edition, if you can find it. From the day I first saw this book, I have been hooked.

I transplanted my first trees when I was seven, I think.

--Spruce

Spruce:

Amazon mentions two editions of Knowing Your Trees by Collingwood and Brush:

9X12 PAPER BOUND PAMPHLET 1ST PUBL 1937, REVISED 1974, 266 ILLUSTRATIONS COVERS ABOUT 50 OF COMMON FOREST TREES

I found the 1937 edition on Ebay. Does this look familiar?

Pam:

This is the book, but it is probably an earlier printing. Mine is the sixth printing, 1943, and has a different cover. I would assume all the photos are the same. I recommend you get it if you are a tree lover like me. I learned to identify most trees just from the full tree pictures, one with foliage, one without in winter. Not all the photos are equally good--in all honesty some are mediocre, but about every other one is outstanding, and to me, some are absolute classics, especially the American elm and the redwood among a number of others.

One warning--It may have been revised since the last edition I saw, but the statements in the original edition about the growth of Norway spruce are all wrong, so ignore those.

My 1943 printing is still nearly in mint condition--the original dust jacket went to pieces a few years ago, however. Surprizing my copy is in such good shape after all these years. I have several copies of newer editions and have been disappointed to see the best pictures one-by-one disappear. Don't bother with the new paperback edition--it does not have so many trees as the fuller hardbound edition. Even the new edition is a good book for basic reference, even without the best pictures from the original. One part I especially like is the descriptions of the woods of the trees--their weight, toughness, etc. and the uses they have traditionally had. And the maps and descriptions of the trees natural ranges are good.

--Spruce

Spruce:

I hate to bother you with another question but I found a different edition on Amazon that sounds nearly identical to yours: "Ninth and revised printing 1947. Green Hardcover with gold lettering." If this edition was printed in 1947, it is likely to have the same pictures. New printings don't usually change that much. Major changes come in new editions. I'll order this edition.

I appreciate your description of the value of this book. I have purchased so many books and field guides on the Internet that didn't live up to their descriptions. I thought I hit the jackpot with "Common Plants of the Mid-Atlantic Coast: A Field Guide." When it arrived, I found that it was illustrated with black and white drawings that weren't especially illuminating.

Today, I was walking through a 'left alone' area that I stopped mowing last year. I found a small "grove" of dozens of trees (leafless). The twigs were a deep reddish color with small gray spots. Last year, the new leaves were quite beautiful - that's why I stopped mowing. A few trees are more than 6 feet tall. They are growing very close together.

I don't know what they are (they may be persimmons). The Field Guide doesn't even mention persimmonsl

I understand the time it takes to answer these questions and appreciate your advice. I started planting baldcypresses today.

Take care,
Pam

I agree with the suggestion of bald cypress. I live in a hurricane zone and I have yet to see a bald cypress knocked over by wind. They grow quite fast, my father has a neglected one that is about twelve years old and it is close to forty feet tall.

I just planted four of them, spaced about 25 feet apart. I'd have preferred forty feet apart but didn't have the room at this location.

Next year, at a different property, I will plant some cypress 40 feet apart (with a few planted 20 feet apart for a more natural look).

Perhaps carolina silverbell would make a nice understory.

Get the book--I would guess it has all or most all of the original pictures. The pictures are black and white, but many are so good it doesn't matter. And some people still think black and white can have special advantages over color anyway. There are also closeups of leaves, twigs, and flowers, and these are almost universally excellent.

My tree identification skills are a lot like how a person recognizes a face--a kind of "gestalt" recognition. I will go out and check my persimmon trees and see if the details you mention match mine. Over the years I have become fairly good at recognizing tiny trees in winter from just a 12" "twig" coming out of the ground. Buds are probably the most important feature. Opposite or alternate is the first thing to look for, then the color and arrangement of scales, etc. I can recognize almost everything that is likely to come up on my land, but for the life of me I couldn't describe anything unless I had it in fromt of me!

If you want to preserve the really nice things that may come up on their own in your field, you need to develop identification skills. Sometimes when I am confronted by something that I really can't figure out, I resort to plant keys. Unfortunately, these use some special terminology that you need to learn before you can really use them well, and I admit, sometimes I come across terms that I don't really know. But, in addition to a picture book like the Knowing Your Trees, I recommend getting a tree book that has keys. You can use the internet, maybe, to learn the meaning of some unfamiliar terms, or a really good dictionary, or perhaps some basic botany text could help.

Maybe your field guide has keys--usually books that call themselves "field guide" do. If you can learn how to use these, you will really be a long way ahead.

I must say, that much of what I have discovered coming up on my property I would have missed without the skills I have.

Don't worry about asking too many questions--these forums are a wonderful form of entertainment for me, and I love trees so much that I want to promote their growth and health in any way I can, and want to help others enjoy trees as much as I do.

--Spruce

vancleaveterry:

Thanks for the observations re: bald cypressses and hurricanes. Since you live on the MS coast, you know hurricanes. In 2003, Isabel (cat 2 when she hit) took down 80% of the trees (loblollies, oaks, maples, gum) on this land. The rest were damaged and had to be taken down. We now have 5 acres of open land. Overwhelming but also many opportunities.

Since bald cypresses don't have to be in wet soil, I am finding new places for them. Yesterday, I started planting them about 20-25 ft apart. Will add a tupelo for texture and fall color. After these are in, I'll like to add smaller native trees like serviceberries and southern wax myrtles. I didn't think about Carolina silverbell - that would make a nice understory.

Thanks for the suggestion!
Pam

Pam:

I looked at my persimmons and also at a couple of books that describe their twigs. I doubt that these deep red twigged trees you have are persimmon, but they may be. Persimmon are more often a gray/brown color, but if you rub off the gray coating on the twigs they could be described as a red brown, but a rather dull color. I could try to describe the other features of the twigs, but you would be better served by some other tree book that can describe them for you. I have a number of what I have been sure are all persimmons, but there is some degree of variability in such things as leaf scars, etc. Some of the descriptions I have read are more concerned with twigs lower down in the crown of older trees and would not really describe well what you see in young trees just sprouting up, unless you focus on some of the more specific features such as leaf scars and bud scales, etc.

But you should not mow over anything without knowing what it is, and if you have an area you have been mowing, you might let it go for a while, maybe as much as two years or more without mowing to see what's there. Often an area that has been mowed, unless it has been mowed very, very short and has very thick grass, will have seedlings that have been mowed down several times and if given a chance will sprout up fast. You don't know what wonderful things might suddenly appear!

--Spruce

Spruce:

Thanks, I will take that advice. Last spring, when I was mowing, I noticed all kind of interesting plants. Had no idea what they were so I stopped mowing a big area of (previously) bare land to see what happened. Ended up with a diverse meadow - and still don't know the identities of all plants in the meadow. I don't plan to cut it this year either.

I plan to join the VA Native Plant Association but will wait until I have more time. This is the busiest time of the year for us (we write & publish books and do training programs), and things won't slow down til mid-June. I'm in cold, snowy New Hampshire this week, will be home a few days, then go to Jacksonville, FL - which should definitely be warmer!

I'm looking forward to the arrival of the Know Your Trees book.

Take care,
Pam

Pam:

Yes, it is not all about trees. In my natural area I love the goldenrod of three varieties, the wild asters of at least three varieties, and all kinds of other plants, including one special kind of grass that I don't know the name of but which I have loved since I was a child. The first rwo little clumps of this grass appeared just this year.

I am also enjoying black raspberries, dew berries, and blackberries.

A warning--if you see any thistle, get rid of it immediately. I made the mistake of thinking it was just another wildflower and I am now overwhelmed with it. I have tried sprays, chopping it out and whatever, and nothing has kept it from taking over completely, and I mean completely, a large area. Just one plant left alone will spread thousands of seeds.

But except for the thistles and the exotic vines that I am fighting, it has been fun to see how this area changes every year as it goes through the beginning stages of some elements of the "natural plant succession."

--Spruce

Spruce, I fight a lot of weeds in my job and I have found glyphosate-type herbicides(Roundup) to work on thistles.......if some attention is payed to timing. Thistle species often have an extensive, rhizomorphous root system which makes it difficult to get enough of any material in there to kill it all. What I've seen work is to spray the patch-not too early, when theres insufficient target foliage to get enough in, and of course, not so late as to have the plants already seeding out. Having missed this window, the next best is late summer/early fall, when most perennial plants are translocating materials into their roots. Trouble with this is that by this time of year, the foliage of thistles is often covered by downy and/or powdery mildew, which makes herbicide uptake less efficient. Overall, repeat applications can be needed, as I'm guessing you've realized.

Good luck..............+oM

Spruceman - GREAT first response!
Great recommendation of McLean Nurseries. That place is awesome and nobody knows about it. I just about thought I'd died and gone to heaven when I found it. Thanks to the owner of Patuxent Valley Nursery near Columbia for telling me about it. (PVN nursery is also incredible and is the place to go if you want to buy a 15' holly tree...for a price. Actually the most impressive collection of plants I've seen outside an arboretum)

And Pam - five acres on the Bay - how lucky are you! It looks beautiful! You are in a part of the country where the climate permits a wide range of plants...take a plant tour on the W&M campus and see if any of the rare plants appeal to you. You can (or could) see a mature Pinus bungeana, Pinus monticola, coast redwood, Abies firma, Aesculus hippocastanum, etc. etc. I doubt, for example, Pinus monticola would survive much further south of you and other rarities would not survive much north of you.

wisconsitom:

Thanks for the advice about thistles. I think you are talking about Canadian thistle, which is a perennial and speads by some kind of roots. I think I have a very small parch of this and am on top of it.

Most of my thistles are the biennial kind--rosette the first year and a huge, tall, thick stalk the second. I have at least two varieties of these biennial thistles, and if I remember right, I think one is a "Russian" thistle. I sprayed with roundup and roundup plus for two years but only delayed or reduced their growth for the most part--I got maybe 25% kill. I have also physically chopped them with limited results. I want to kill them without killing everything around them with the spray misses/drift. After I spray an area they come back as strong or stronger than before because the seeds that were already on/in the gound sprout and have no competition. A good stand of goldenrod and asters seems to keep them down, but heavy thick grass doesn't reduce their numbers enough to make much difference.

I think I have completely lost the battle. This fall and winter I chopped the new rosettes, chopping out even the little tiny ones, sometimes on my knees. Now this spring I see that areas I had completely cleaned are covered again with new little roseattes.

I am now hampered by a very badly torn rotator cuff and am waiting to have surgery--my right arm is basically dead at my side. Yes, I had physical therapy but it just got worse. It would be hard for me now to even manage a sprayer, except a small light one.

Oh, I should clarify--I have 5 acres infested by these thistles, and in places they are so thick you can't see anything else. They cover the ground as thick as grass. I assume that if I leave them alone, in a few years the "plant succession" will replace them with the golden rod/aster kind of cover, which, I think, will eventually force them out.

As for the spraying--unlike the canada thistles, the time to spray these is, according to one source I found, when they are in the rosette stage. After they "bolt," which means sprout upwards with their flower stalks, they are more difficult to kill.

Well, If you know something I don't and/or have any advice, please share. I am not a happy camper with these things. the real problem is if I don't kill virtually all of them for several years, I am not making ANY progress, because each plant that survives produces so many seeds, and the seeds remain viable for a long time (just how long I don't know).

--Spruce

Hey Spruce......yes you are right. I should have clarified it is Canada thistle that is rhizomorphous.

I don't have much to add, but when you get your arm strength back, if you're not already using a backpack type sprayer, spend the hundred bucks or so. So much more efficient than canister type. Solo makes a good one, and there are others.

I know what you mean about seedbank in the soil when you kill weeds, quickly sprouting in the now clear area. It is frustrating. My God, all the junk we've let loose on this continent!

+oM

This discussion of thistles and that repeated use of roundup did not eliminate or control them is chilling. I didn't know that anything was resistant to roundup, especially if it is used at higher concentrations and fairly often.

Part of our land is wetlands. When we bought it, large areas were covered by a form of Phragmites, an invasive grass that crowded out the native species. The grass is 12'-15' tall and spreads by rhizomes up to 40 feet long.

If you attempt to dig it out (and you would soon lose heart), each tiny bit of rhizome becomes a new plant, so you would create 1,000s of new plants.

For the first couple of years, we used roundup several times a year, beginning with the first sprigs that came out of the ground in Feb or March, and continuing until the first hard frost. The grass was very resistant (and resilient). After four years or so, I think we have it pretty much under control. But if we stop, I do think we'll lose the battle.

Spruce, I am sorry to hear about your rotator cuff injury. Shoulders are often slow to heal. Are you seeing a good physical therapist who has expertise in shoulders? These folks can help before surgery to minimize the problems you are having now with the dead arm. A good PT is essential after surgery - they help you get up and running much faster. I've had many friends who had this procedure - the key to success seems to be high quality post-surgical PT - doing what they tell you to do until they tell you to go away.

I'll climb off the soapbox now and do a little research - I need to see what these biennial thistles look like.

Take care,
Pam

davidrt28 - You and Spruce both have high praise for McLean so I'll plan a trip. It sounds like a wonderful place.

You are right, this area is wonderfully diverse. The land was on the market for a long time because part of it IS low (subject to flooding) and there was a bald eagle's nest on the property. Anyone who wanted to build anything had to negotiate with FWS for a permit. That is another story, not an enjoyable one.

The Bay has a huge impact on when things happen. Our first frost is usually in late Nov or early Dec, four weeks or more after the first frost in town, 3 miles away. Same in the Spring - temperatures warm up more slowly here. In the summer, the winds cool things off.

Thanks for the suggestion about W&M. I didn't think of the school as a resource. You mentioned taking a plant tour and seeing rare species. I will now reveal my complete ignorance about W&M by asking if they have plant tours, or if there are gardens you recommend.

Thanks for the suggestions and advice.
Pam

Pam:

Let me say just a bit more about my thistles. Roundup may work with repeated sprayings--last year I gave them only two sprayings, partly because 5 acres of spraying is so much work. And near the latter part of the season I spent more time trying to chop them out than spraying. Maybe three or four sprayings would have a good kill rate.

And after last years battle was over, I read that spraying them earlier in the year when they are still in the rosette stage is more effective. So I haven't really tried that yet. But it was not clear to me when I read about them being more susceptible to spraying in the rosette stage if that included roundup or only other kinds of herbicides.

My best advice is if you don't yet have a problem, but find an occasional thistle, don't bother with spraying. It may not work and by the time you find out it doesn't work, it will be too late. Chop them out. Later if you find they have spread, then try spraying with different things when they are in the rosette stage. These rosettes begin to grow large in the fall. Last fall I had some rosettes where they were sparce and not competing with each other, up to 6 feet across--real monsters that took a number of good whacks with a heavy mattock to get out. Most by November are six inches to a foot across, but many are tiny. If you get them just below the crown of leaves, they are gone--you don't need to get all the root of a biennial thistle to kill it.

--Spruce

Spruce:

I did a Google search of biennial thistles. Yes, I had some last year in the left alone area. I didn't know what they were so didn't do anything. You're right, I need to work on plant identification skills. I'll never been as skilled as you are but I do need to recognize the enemies, at a minimum.

When things dry out a bit, I'll look for rosettes in the field. I'm surprised that chopping them out below the crown works so well. I guess this is because they spread by seed, not by root cuttings.

I imagine chopping out thistles could cause a repetitive motion injury.

I'm sick at heart about Va Tech tragedy, trying to do things to distract.

Pam

Pam:

Yes, avoid too much strain if you have a lot to chop out. Some hints: for larger ones, about a foot in spread or larger, use a mattock. If you are not a tall and large person, they make a smaller version. Balance yourself in a comfortable position over the devils and let the weight of the thing do most of the work. For smaller ones a hoe that has had the corners completely rounded or cut off is best. Same rule--take it easy and experiment to see what kind of chopping motion is easiest. Just keep your muscles relaxed and don't try to do too much in one day.

Later on after they grow their tall stalks, the job is more difficult. First, you can't position yourself directly over the plant so easily without getting stuck with the spines. If you have heavy high boots and thick heavy pants, you can march into them, knock the stalk over with your foot, and get a good angle for the chop.

--Spruce

Spruce:

I was planting trees in the field this afternoon. We seem to have an abundance of thistles. Since my plant identification skills are around kindergarten level, I may be mistaken. There were several different types of rosettes. One type had sprouted a stem that looks like a young thistle.

I planned to take photos but didn't have the camera and worked until dark. I'll take a couple of photos when I'm out there again and put them up on the website.

I thought about doing an experiment - divide an area into two rougly equal sections. Chop one part, use roundup at a high concentration on the other part. Pay attention, see what happens to the plants at regular intervals.

When I was in Hawai'i a couple of years ago, people were using blow torches to burn weeds growing between rocks along with water. I think that would be tedious, though maybe not as tedious as chopping. I don't know how effective this would be, especially in your situation with so much land affected.

I am still leaning toward roundup applied strong and often, especially since I found several new stands of Phragmites so I have to deal with them too.

I'm going to the big city tomorrow so I'll look for a backpack type sprayer as recommended by wisconsitom.

Take care,
Pam

Pam:

If it has a rosette, I am pretty sure it is a biennial thistle. The canadian thistle spreads by rhizomes or some kind of rootlike method and does not normally grow rosettes as it spreads. Maybe Canada thistle if it starts by seed has a rosette. I am sorry I really don't know.

If your thistle has a rosette and is starting to send up a flower stalk, that means you should get to chopping/spraying ASAP. It won't bloom for a while, but it may become more difficult to kill as the stalk begins to grow.

Chapping VS spraying? I wish I knew what is better. Here are my thoughts. Chopping takes a lot of fairly hard physical work. I could have chopped out my 5 acres, even as thick as they are, if I had not hurt my shoulder so bad (I did not hurt it chopping), and IF the thistles had not begun to re-seed themselves as fast as I chopped. But I am retired and had time to do about 1 1/2 hours every day. The advantage of chopping is you just kill the thistle--the roundup kills whatever spray gets on, and it kills other things much more easily than the thistle.

The roundup spraying is relatively easy--get a good sprayer and mix your own roundup. One frustrating thing for me was I could not always see where I had sprayed and where I had not. I sprayed a lot of thistle twice the same day and missed a lot.

Maybe roundup is not the best thing to spray--some other weed killers may be better. A web search for killing thistle will turn up a lot of sites with a lot of different info.

---Good luck! Let me know how it goes and after my shoulder gets better I may try to resume the battle, armed with whatever you learn from your experience. But for now it seems completely lost.

--Spruce

Pam:

I just posted and a second after I thought of something else you need to know: With the roundup, a thistle may seem to be dying--the stalk will die back and the plant will look really sick, and if it were any other kind of plant you would write it off. But later in the summer it will begin to regrow--not as strong or tall as it would if it had not been sprayed. It may be low and bushy, but it will produce tons of flowers and seeds. So you will need to patrol your fields until a hard frost, even in areas where it surely looked like you got them all.

--Spruce

Spruce:

I took your advice and did some research on biennial thistles and control methods (instead of just relying on roundup). The experts described the problem just as you did. One said that it took two or three years to get things under control, that if you lapsed, you had to start all over again.

They described different methods of control: cultural, mechanical, chemical and biological (a musk thistle weevil).

They recommended mowing after bolting (which I thought would make things worse): "Mowing biennial thistles after they have bolted is an effective control tactic since this will prevent seed production. Biennial thistles have dormant buds in the crown that usually sprout when the main stalk is removed. Thus, at least two mowings during the summer are required to completely eliminate seed production. Isolated plants can be effectively removed by cutting the plant below the crown with a spade or hoe."

One article recommended chopping if the problem was not severe and for "beneficial exercise."

Herbicides are most effective when applied in the fall (even after several frosts) and in early spring, before a flower stalk appears, and less effective after temps warm up.

They described various herbicides and ratios, but noted problems in the use of herbicides in the absence of cultural control because "the most effective control strategy is to promote vigorous growth of the desired vegetation."

Bottom line: A single strategy is not sufficient. Control is best achieved by using mechanical and chemical controls at different times, improving cultural conditions ... and remaining vigilant because these thistles are unlikely to disappear.

I picked up a Gilmour 4.5 gal backup sprayer at Lowe's - it seemed sturdier than the Solo. After doing this preliminary review, I know I'll be in this for the long haul.

I just want to thank you again for your help. Finding this forum has been a life changing experience.

Take care,
Pam

First, I want to thank all of you who offered advice. You are so open and willing to give advice to a stranger. This forum is a wonderful tutorial on many topics. I've learned a great deal by reading old posts, and know I have much more to learn.

Spruce: I wanted to tell you that "Knowing Your Trees" arrived last week. The copyright is 1947, 9th and revised printing, November 1947, 806 illustrations, so it must be similar to your copy. The book is exceptional. Before it arrived, I bought two field guides on Eastern Trees (Peterson and Nat'l Audubon Soc) - the layout and design of each is quite different. So far, I prefer "Knowing Your Trees" (except it won't fit in a pocket); it presents a great deal of information about each tree and the illustrations are outstanding.

I took the advice I received here, loaded up with tulip trees and red maples, a white oak, a Shumard oak (which is in dire straits), a pin oak, a tupelo. Also bald cypresses, dawn redwoods, river birches, and sweet bay magnolias. I'm looking for more oaks and conifers (except loblollies) but should probably wait until fall. I don't know how many trees this property will support.

We've had near constant 15-25 mph winds for 3 weeks so I'm having difficulty planting the remaining trees. All the leaves on the Shumard oak are brown and desiccated. The maples were blowing over so I started using rebar - so far, this is working.

I also want to thank you for the warning about thistles. We have a bounteous supply everywhere. I ended up killing them wherever I found them, by whatever method was handy (roundup, chopping). They grow so fast, I'm still at it.

Spruce, on a personal note, I hope your surgery is behind you and your shoulder is better. I had back surgery a few years ago (rewired with titanium parts). I procrastinated until I was having great difficulty doing nearly everything. Less than 3 weeks after surgery, I was walking 3 miles a day and all pain and numbness vanished. I know I am very fortunate in having such a good outcome. I also had an excellent surgeon who LOVES backs.

I have questions about how to do a mixed planting of hardwoods and conifers either along a long driveway or maybe in the field so it looks natural. I'll create a different post on that topic since it may be of interest to others.

Take care,
Pam