I was considering moving one of my plants to an atypically tall-but-narrow pot for space concerns. See how it turns out.

Do you do anything special, like putting soda bottle halves/rocks/etc in the lower parts of the pot so that they don't hold any water? Or is it the same potting media throughout?

My best advice for planting succulents in oversize pots is to use one medium throughout, and combine it with a deeper rooting faster growing plant that will balance out the soil moisture by such king up excess moisture at depth. The palm fits the bill in this example.

I use hardy Delosperma in large planters. They have very extensive roots and they trail nicely over the pots' edges.

Use the same substrate throughout. Adding bottles or other objects impairs the drainage.

x

Ok, now I thought that you were suppose to put something in the bottom of deep pots to take up the space since many succulent/catus have shallow roots. Or, was I just making this up so that my pots wouldn't get so heavy that I couldn't lift them?

For example, if you put plastic bottles in the bottom, the soil would filter down and fill around them, and, as long at the bottom hole isn't blocked, the plants would be fine. I can see that if you have a huge plant like a palm, you wouldn't want to do this.

I noticed that now some large/tall pots have a plastic bowl in them that fits down in the pot about 12 to 18 inches deep. Then you plant in the bowl. Saves on weight and water and soil.

I'd agree if you don't want the extra weight and only have fairly shallow rooting succulents, the setting a more shallow container on top of styrafoam blocks or inverted nursery pots is one way to go. If I weren't using deeper rooting plants in combination, I would have concerns over the soil staying too wet or going anaerobic. I find I do better with Echeverias in particular if I do plant them with other larger growing plants in deep pots, than by themselves in smaller pots.

Have you tried Echeverias by themselves in deep pots?

There would be no reason to do so, as all Echeverias are very shallow rooted, and deep soil depth in pots without any roots is always a recipe for disaster. The deep pots with a combination of plants on automatic drip irrigation works so well for me because the watering can be more frequent without keeping the soil too wet between cycles. I find I can't get the timing and amount calibrated so well for Echeverias in smaller or shallower pots on their own, and am often either rotting them out or stressing them in summer during our dry season here. With more attentive hand watering and more frequent repotting, as practiced by better growers than me, Echeverias can be grown to the same plumpness and health. I'm just saying that in my local circumstances/climate, I can virtually ignore my plants, and only divide/repotting them after 3 to 4 years of growth, and only fertilize about twice a year with time release fertilizers. It works better for me where I want things to thrive in client's gardens without sucking up my time.

I've found Crassula falcata likes somewhat cooler conditions. Yours in that pot looks wonderful.

Another strategy in large containers is to fill up empty spaces with thirsty annuals and/or allow some weeds to remain. That will ensure that excess moisture is pulled out effectively.

x

The soil mix I use in such tall pots is not Miraclegrow! It does contain a good mix of coconut coir, perlite and pumice and some loamy sand. No fir bark in this mix, as I don't want any tannins staining the white marble deck of the balcony.

Even though this is a west facing wall location, it does stay relatively cool as it is right next to the bay. Below this balcony is a Tabebuia tree that does benefit from the extra heat, and a Brugmansia 'Charles Grimaldi' that is almost never out of bloom.
I'd agree with how easy it is to perch water with the wrong soil mix, which is why I always use a good percentage of pumice and permits for all succulents. I also agree that thirsty annuals or even weeds can be useful for preventing water logged soil conditions for sensitive plants. Extra large pots require more attention to using a soil mix appropriate to the plant type, as it is easy to create anaerobic conditions quickly if you get it wrong. Lifting/tilting/spinning pots isn't really an option where it takes 3 people to even move the pot...

'Getting it wrong' ...... or getting it right, is almost entirely a function of the size of the particles you choose with which to make your soils. What creates the anaerobic conditions that concern you IS the small particulates (coir/sand/peat/compost ....). I only used MG soil as an example to illustrate the effects of perched water, and wasn't suggesting or assuming that you are using it. If you eliminate the fine particulates (coir & loamy sand), you'll eliminate the reason you have trouble in large pots.

When using a soil that holds no, or little perched water you can grow any plant, regardless of how small it might be, in the largest and deepest pot you own with little in the way of any concern for root rot issues. I've done it for years & have never had issues with root rot, even during extended periods of cool weather and rain.

I also wasn't suggesting you follow any of the tips for draining excess water, but they're all there for anyone else that might not be aware of their efficacy. If you have sludge in the bottom of your containers, your soil is very simply too water retentive to offer the best opportunity at peak vitality, which is different than vigor, btw. As noted, the best way to deal with perched water issues is to prevent it in the first place - especially when the topic is plants that don't tolerate wet feet, anoxic conditions, and/or any of the other several issues commonly associated with water-retentive soils - I don't think anyone will disagree with that assessment. An ounce of prevention ..........

Take care.

Al

{{gwi:3266}}

Now I had to read these posts a couple of times, but now I understand why my Echeveria came so close to dying when it rained. I guess I expect growers to use the best soils for the plants they are growing, but that is not always the case.

Penny,
Growers use the best soil for their bottom line. If you kill a plant by improper watering and buy another, their bottom line increases.
Al knows what he's saying, and has the results to prove it.

After it rained,thankfully, people on this Board advised me to pull the Echeveria plant out of its pot and set it aside to dry out because it had probably been over potted. Sure enough, 2/3 of the pot had very wet soil.

After reading this discussion, I went out and checked the remaining soil that was still in the pot that I had originally bought the Echeveria in and had set aside. Sure enough, it was still wet.

I now have a new phrase to add to my newbie vocabulary: "perched water." Way cool!

Al!

Truly amazing that little plant in the acorn! Now that is art and thanks for sharing the info we need about the PWT and how to manipulate it to our favor. Thank goodness I met you and took your words seriously. My plants owe you a huge thanks along with I.

Mike:-)

Al all this depends on your watering habits as well as the environment. I have a weak watering hand (ask my hibiscus). Here in Zone 7 even Miracle grow dirt dries out completely during the summer in a day or so. My mother has a strong watering hand and will drown even the most water loving plant.

In a coarse mix I killed several succulent plants this summer but, not from root rot. It was because I let them dry up and shrivel. They would actually be alive if they were in Miracle grow dirt. During the winter here my watering hand falls even weaker (ask my hibiscus).

Of course watering is different from Summer-Winter. I could easily create perched water in the winter but, during the summer that really won't last long in 90-101f days.

I would be pretty miffed if someone suggested I get very coarse potting mix not knowing I have a weak watering hand already and all the plants dried up. I would consider that mix a bust.

A good point that soil type preferences and performance vary tremendously by local climate and watering habits. There is no one size fits all sort of ideal mix. The mix I used for this example is obviously working for the Echeveria shown, as I never get such fast and large growth from the same plant in the ground. These pots are getting twice daily watering in summer for a couple of minutes each cycle. Containers on the same valve that prefer more water get twice as many emitters or higher flow emitters or a more water retentive soil mix. I admit the choices of how and why are often more intuitive than not, but also tested by decades of experience with growing succulents in combination with other types of plants under generally mild summer and cooler wet winter SF Bay Area conditions. My experiences would most generally work best in similar coastal California locations with similar temperature ranges. The biggest difference would probably boil down to water quality issues; our local city water supply has little dissolved salts or high Ph, no need for reverse osmosis watering by growers here.

'You' (used collectively to mean 'all')can imagine multitudes of scenarios in which this or that may or may not work and then say "see - it doesn't work when this, this, and this occurs"; but the fact is, when you look at things from the perspective of what's best for the plant, what I said holds up to even the closest scrutiny. Grower convenience and what is best for the plant are usually mutually exclusive; and if you have a heavy/light watering hand - that is grower error; and while a very open soil like the gritty mix pretty much eliminates the problems created by a heavy-handed waterer, there is nothing that can eliminate the limiting effect of a lack of water, regardless of soil choice.

If you know you have a heavy hand on the watering can, and even though logic dictates you should simply fix the propensity, it makes perfect sense to use a soil that doesn't hold perched water - problem solved. As we've seen, there's not much you can do about forgetting to water plants. Is it better to knowingly use a water retentive soil that limits growth and vitality to accommodate questionable watering habits, or fix the watering habits so your plants have the potential to be all they can be within the limits of other cultural factors?

Soil choices vary more from grower to grower than they would from plant to plant if plants had a say in things. Virtually ALL plants crown in conventional container culture would prefer a homogeneous mix of soil ingredients that yield a soil that holds ample amounts ow air and water, but no perched water. Perched water kills, even if it provides the grower with the convenience of adding an extra day or ten to the intervals between watering. That is simply a fact. when the grower starts to use a soil that provides extended intervals between waterings compliments of that perched water 'reservoir', he is sacrificing growth/vitality on the altar of convenience.

"It works for me" simply indicates someone is satisfied with the status quo - nothing more. It doesn't address the fact that there might well be something or some way that is much better. If the grower(s) I'm talking to are happy with how things are, then I'm happy too. Obviously there is concern for that soggy layer of soil at the bottom of containers that is being addressed in this thread, with ways being discussed to reduce its known limiting effects. Again - easiest and best is to eliminate the possibility it can exist.

What if you want to grow a single and formal specimen in a deep container. Should it be mandatory that you under-plant everything to act as a sponge? - or would it be better to simply change how the soil is structured? I should reiterate here that when using water-retentive soils in containers, it's the shallow containers that present the larger challenge because a much higher % of soil remains totally saturated after watering.

I'm not sure how the quality of water got into the picture, and I do realize that SF's water is probably the best in the nation because of where it comes from (melt from the SN mountains), but it doesn't matter if there is SF water or water from any other municipality occupying the perched water table. It's the existence of that perched water table and the soil's water retention, not the quality of the water that is at issue.

FWIW - it's easy to assume that Echeveria has shallow roots (dictated by genetics) when growing in heavy soils because they need lots of air to remain viable and won't penetrate deeply into soils that lack adequate aeration. All plants that normally have shallow roots when growing in situ do so because air, water, and nutrients are found there in the most favorable ratios. Those same plants, grown in containers in a well-aerated soil will very happily occupy the entire soil mass from top to bottom. I've grown Echeveria (sempervivum, too) in deep pots & their roots colonized the entire soil mass. Roots are opportunistic, and though they don't 'seek' water/air/nutrients, they DO grow wherever those conditions are favorable.

{{gwi:3241}}

Al

Al, I appreciate all the time you take to educate and inform those of us who, like me, really need this kind of information. Just last week I planted something in a very shallow container. Yesterday, I just couldn't figure out what was going wrong, so I wicked it. Now, you'd think after reading your first post I'd know what the problem was. So, your second explanation gave me a little extra boost. Thanks.

Thanks, Pennyhal. I truly enjoy helping where/when I can.

While it's true there is no 'one size fits all', when it comes to container media, we can still eliminate a lot of soils as being inappropriate to the optimization of growth/vitality based on their structure. This can be done simply through a knowledge of how soil particles interact to make the whole, and how the whole is then going to affect root health. Roots, the heart of the plant, come first. If you can't keep the roots happy, there is no chance of optimizing growth or vitality or keeping the rest of the plant as happy as it COULD be; and when a soil supports perched water, growth and vitality is left lying on the table.

Al