I do grow clematis from seed, but the best advice I can give you is to read Brian Collingwood's section on growing from seed on his web-site. It's the best there is on the subject. See the link below.
Suzy

Here is a link that might be useful: Clematis from seed

I've already read that, and it wasn't any help because he says that how it germinates depends on the type. I didn't see Jackmanii anywhere on the list so it didn't help me.

Deanna

Deanna,

Actual germination can range from 3 months to 1 year or longer. I would say it would be closer to a year for Jackmanii. Germinating all clematis seed takes a great deal of patience. I just had some C. Eriostemon seed sprout that took 15 months. All seeds are germinated the same way that Brian describes on his web site - it's generally done in a plastic bag.

If you want a few copies of your plant to give away it might be easier to layer it.

Katie

I agree that Brian's site is the best resource readily available for learning how to start clematis from seed. I am not really sure why you are so concerned with exactly how long it might take to germinate Jackmanii seeds. The information on Brian's website shows germination data for informational purposes so that one can see how long it may take to get specific types of clematis seed to germinate. If you look at his data, you see that sometimes the same variety of seed may germinate in a shorter or longer time period. It isn't uncommon for you to plant clematis seed and have some seed germinate rather quickly and other seed in the same pot to take months if not longer to germinate. Germination rates may be affected by when you plant the seed since some seed may germinate faster if it is exposed to colder temperatures. Older seed may take longer to germinate than younger seed. Take the information as to germination time frames as general guidelines and realize that your actual germination time may be shorter or longer than stated.

I should also mention that Jackmanni is a hybrid and you will not be able to get a duplicate from growing from seed. Layering or taking cuttings is the only way to make duplicates.
Katie is right, Jackmanii takes about 1 year to germinate from seed. The seedlings may be very different from the mother plant and sometimes the colors can also be very different.
Here is what I do when planting seeds:

Place about 20 seeds in an 8" pot of good potting soil and cover gently with 1/8 inch of soil and pat lightly. Water well and drain for 1 hour. Place the pot into a zip-lock baggie and seal.
Place the pot into a dark, cool place, such as a basement and start checking weekly in about 6 months. Sometimes a few seeds will germinate earlier than others as Katie said, but usually the average time for germination on large flowered types is about a year...give or take a few months.
Good luck !
Suzy

I germinate seeds of all types and do not find anything different about Clematis. I much prefer to start with fresh collected seed. Germination times have been about the same as any normal seed usually two to three weeks at 70 degrees. I use a seed starting mix of equal amounts of peat and vermiculite and plant about 9 seeds in a four inch plastic pot kept covered with clear plastic sheet until germination. The plastic wrap is then remover and the pot moved off the heat. My clematis armandii seeds itself every year and I just dig the seedlings and pot them up. Al

Al, you must be germinating species types to have those fast results. Large flowered hybrids cannot germinate in a few weeks, but species seed can and is very quick, generally. There's a world of difference between the two types. Even the 'experts' couldn't germinate LFH's any faster than 8-12 months!
Do you have some sort of secret method you'd like to share ? If so, please tell me !
Suzy

Suzy, not all species clematis are quick to germinate--the tanguticas are very quick to germinate. Viorna is a prime example of one that takes a longer time to germinate. How long did it take your viorna seed to germinate I sent? Brian still hasn't had any of his germinate but they are just coming into the appropriate time frame for them to begin showing signs of germination (per an email from him today!).

Per an article that Brian wrote entitled "The Joy of Growing Your Own Clematis from Seed" that was published in the British Clematis Society Journal in Nov. 25, 2004, he says that "there are many clematis cultivars and species, consequently there is a fairly wide range of germination times. Generally, ((only) in my experience) clematis seed fall into one of three main groups-those that come fairly quickly-30 to 100 days; those that take a little more time-perhaps 200 to 450 (and further) days; there are a number of 'inbetweens' which seem to need around 100-200 days. Don't discard your pots early. Some will produce good seedlings after 2 or more years."

He states further that "with the large flowered hybrids and certain species it is prudent to expect a significant waiting period before seedlings arise. This can be from 6 months to 2 or more years, depending on several factors. In the main, from my experience, large flowered hybrids seeds tend to average 200 to 400 days, in some cases a little longer, to germinate, with the majority being toward the furthest part of this range. Many of the viornae group need a similar time period; all these are plants which form seeds having a tougher and more impervious seed coat; in addition, some often require a period of cold, before germination, and may therefore keep you waiting through to the next season, before germination occurs."

"On the other hand some clematis produce smaller, thin-walled seeds, which have no cold-period, or waiting-period requirements; many of the meclatis (the orientalis) group, many alpinas, and macropetalas, and others will germinate quite readily and rapidly. Indeed, some of the 'orientalis' cultivars and species will produce seedlings which will fill an 2-litre pot with roots, and produce flowers, even for the first-time raiser, in the very first season! C. tangutica and C. serratifolia, are good examples."

Al, I agree with Suzy that if you have some special method of getting all types of clematis seed to germinate quickly that we would all appreciate your secret. Also, could you give examples of the specific cultivars that you have gotten to germinate in the two to three week time interval you spoke of? Thanks for your help!

Miguel, the Viorna seeds you sent me took about 6-8 months to germinate. You're right, not ALL species types germinate quickly, but I have seen certain species types that have been very quick. One example, for instance, is 'Orientalis' whose seeds germinated here in about 8-12 weeks . The harder the casing, the longer it takes. The Alpina types also germinated rather quickly as well at about 3 months time, since the casing is thin walled. But, Texensis takes 1 to 1 1/2 YEARS !
Pitcheri, about 9 months here, etc.....
Species types vary in germination times and these quick types must be what Al was referring to. (Alpinas, Tangutica's etc)
All my LFH's take approximately 9-18 months. The fresher the seed, the better the germination times. Last year, I planted some seeds immediately after picking and I had very good germination, a few which took only 6 months, but most take a year or longer. (Minuet was very quick at 5-6 months!)
So, as you can see, my germination times do coincide perfectly with the information you posted above.
I presently have about 300 seedlings of all different types and have been doing so for about 5 years now. Have you seen some of my more recent seedling's in flower ? A few are interesting. Well, it's late, so I hope I'm making sense, lol.
Suzy

Here is a link that might be useful: seedling flowers

Have any of you tried the Winter Sowing method? It sounds like what you're doing Suzy except that you put the container outside for the winter with slits in the top and bottom to let moisture in and out of the container. It goes through all of the freezes and thaws of winter and germinates in the spring. I've had great success with WS, but haven't tried clematis yet (mostly because I wait for the seedheads and then forget to check for them once it gets really cold here in November).
I'm thinking that the freeze/thaw cycle would be just what the clematis needs to break down the seed coat.

Suzy, I have seen some of your pictures of your seedlings and it looks like you have some nice ones in the bunch. The fact that you have 300 or so is exactly why I haven't jumped into the whole seed germination regimen that you have--I already have enough stuff to keep watered and can't imagine how you keep them all watered over the course of the summer or even during the other times of the year!! Of course, your summers are shorter and not as much without rainfall as ours usually are, but still I have so much other stuff going on that I can't imagine your watering chores for your seedlings much less anything else you have to water. :) I do have three pots going right now of some stuff that was started this past summer and have plans for a few more, but I won't be keeping the pots around for an extremely long time (more than a year or so) prior to dumping them for lack of germinations--guess I am not as patient as you and don't really have the room for them to sit around too long!

By the way, did you ever try Joan's (Bloomorelse) method of soaking your seeds overnight in hot water to see if that will speed up germination? I did it on the three pots that I have to see if that will help any. Of course I won't know definitely since I am not running controls to compare them against. I know that that technique works for other types of seeds that I have planted but am not sure about how it works for all seeds.

I would love it if Al does have a method to speed up germination of all types of clematis seed. I might be more prone to try it since waiting around for a year or so is stretching my patience limit! LOL However, all the information I have seen mirrors Brian's information--even other posters on GBs who raise clematis from seed. One thing that I haven't done nor seen anyone else do that Al does however is use a heating pad for germination. Since most of the people I know who raise clematis from seed live in colder climates and don't use a heating pad for germination purposes, that is one thing that strikes my fancy. Oh well, all this may be a moot point until we hear from Al as to the specific types he has successfully germinated in the short time frame he has pointed out.

One other thing for anyone interested, I have links to some germination guides for specific types of clematis that I picked up somewhere and some time in the past. You have to look at both links since one points out specific clematis and a code to things they did to get the seed to germinate and the other list shows what the codes and specific treatments were.

Guide to specific types of clematis:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~jehan/Information/seedc5.htm

Guide to codes of treatments for the specific clematis:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~jehan/Information/germinate.htm

Yes, Miguel, watering is a chore during the very hot spells. Many of my older seedlings are in the ground now in a test garden, spaced at 1 1/2 foot intervals in rows. The younger seedlings will stay indoors this winter, then will be re-potted in spring and moved back outside into a semi-shady spot in May. These indoor plants range in size from just germinated, to 1 yr. olds. The older indoor plants must be pruned back often to allow for space.
Joan's hot water method seemed to help in speeding germination on some clematis by a month or two. I think it's a good idea and it doesn't hurt at all to try !

About the heat mat for germination.....
I have never used this method, mainly because none of the experts seem to do this. It is also my understanding that some clematis actually like 'cool' temperatures to germinate. Since I can't afford to lose precious seeds to rot, I have used the recommended germination method and not the heating mat. This works well for me. However, it can be a very long wait. I now have about 50 seed pots in my basement, so the wait for some isn't as anxious as it would be if I only had a few seeds planted. Something is always germinating here!
Growing from seed requires a bit of patience and a lot of work. Lately, I've become more interested in breeding my own hybrids and will be planting mainly my own crosses from now on, since space is becoming limited with the seedlings I already have.
Thanks for the germination links.
Suzy

Gardenfanatic, I planted clematis seeds last year for the first time. Among them were some of my own Jackmanii seeds. I used Suzy and Brian's traditional method of them. They were planted Oct 15/04 and only one sprouted on June 8/05...so that's close to 8 months. I had many other kinds that sprouted before 8 months any many after. Some are still sprouting and some have not sprouted.
Suzy, I'm glad to see my Texensis may still have a chance to sprout, since they seem to take longer.

ouuuu, I guess I should read my messages before I post and not after so I could correct my typos.

Wow, Suzy. I hope you have room for all those seedlings that might come up from the 50 additional pots of seeds in your basement. You have way more time that I do to try and take care of all that stuff. Perhaps if and when I ever retire, I can get into it like you have but until then, it is sort of a hit or miss experiment for me.

By the way, how did your experiment go with using that unusual coir or whatever material that you found last year go? You were thinking that it might preclude the need for using fungicides in the pots that you thought might be inhibiting germinations?

One other thing, can you post the link to that surface applied systemic fungicide that you posted a while back? I forget to save the link when you posted it a while back. Thanks!

As I have plenty of seed available I will start several of the popular varieties and keep records of planting dates and time to germination which I will post in due time. Al

Seeds from Jackmanii, or most any other hybrid clematis for that matter, won't give you more plants of Jackmanii, although the results could be similar; but equally they could be very different, or anywhere between!
But that's the beauty of it - you get to raise original, new plants more or less every time, and you are the first person to see the new flowers. If you raise seeds over a reasonable period of time, if something particularly good eventually comes along you can give the plant a name, and, you never know, with luck and persistence you might even be able to earn something from it commercially, in time. But that's not the main aim - the fact is, most clematis (I am not saying this because I am biased!) produce beautiful plants with beautiful flowers that you will get a lot of pleasure out of - that is the main aim.

Whichever, once the seed is germinated you are past the biggest hurdle and with a little more work you can soon have brand new plants producing brand new flowers, and I don't need to tell you, that's terribly exciting!
Seeds of most of the jackmanii-types, and the other larger flowered hybrids, take between 180 (conservative) and about 400 days to germinate. You occasionally get some coming relatively quickly - about 200 days, but I would say the average is about 300 or so days, and most (but by no means all) will have germinated by 400 days. But you don't know in advance how long a given batch will take, so it is prudent to plant them in a manner that will ensure they are kept in good condition until they do germinate. So sow them in small pots with a dozen each pot, water, allow to drain, and once sown, cover the soil surface with a layer of grit-type material to a depth of one quarter inch or so - this helps preserve the moist, and helps suppress the growth of some mosses, liverwort etc. Enclose each pot in a top-sealing plastic bag and store the pots in trays for easy handling. For certain, keep them away from direct exposure to the sun's rays. Best to keep them covered and out of the way. (Personally I do this even for the quicker-germinating seeds too, but you could decide these specific ones perhaps don't need quite the same preparation).
Yes, it's a little more effort, but these measures alone will ensure your seeds will keep in excellent condition for two or more years - plenty of time to germinate most types of seed. Once the pots are stored you can commence checking for germinations after 6 months, then weekly thereafter, until you notice the sprouts. There is then a critical period of three months while you bring the germinations from tiny sprouts to small plants. After this, the plants will largely look after themselves in terms of survival, but of course you will need (and want) to tend them throughout, otherwise, as with any other plants or young seedlings, neglect will lead to problems and losses.
If they germinate in spring so much the better, because you will have all the coming season, with agreeable weather, to follow, while they are establishing. If they germinate during, or just before, winter, that makes things more difficult since you have to keep them going during the cold period - this is slightly harder, but that doesn't mean it is too difficult - it just demands a little more care.
Once they are established, even young seedlings are tough, and in due course they will do their level best to flower for you as soon as they physically can. You just have to give them a little regular TLC and attention.
When seedlings begin to produce flower buds for the first time the anticipation becomes massive, and as the flowers form you'll find yourself speculating on the possible outcomes!!! Not only are they brand new flowers, they are YOUR OWN new flowers! Never seen by anyone, ever, before!

Remember that species seeds, as long as they have not cross-pollinated ("hybridised") with other clematis growing nearby, will produce daughters which are quite similar to the parents - they "come true"; whereas seed from hybrids will produce offspring that CAN be similar to, but, much much more likely, will show marked differences to, the parent = they usually WON'T "come true". So, seeds gathered from wild populations where clematis exist as discrete populations of plants, will more often than not "come true", whereas plants, even species plants, grown in garden environments, where other clematis may be growing in the neighbourhood, probably won't come true, because the bees and other insects introduce pollens from other sources to the flowers (clematis are insect pollinated). So, even if you receive seed from somewhere where the known pure species proper is grown, be aware that the seed may still produce some hybrids, if the plants from which the seeds are gathered are growing near other, different (but compatible) clematis plants.

You'll find the smaller, thinner-walled clematis seeds are easy to germinate and raise on. So, any of the "orientalis" group species (C. tangutica, C. serratifolia, C. tibetana etc), and hybrids ("Golden Tiara" etc); and many of the alpinas and macropetalas, and so on, will germinate after 30 - 90 days and be up before you know it. And you can have (with best care) flowering plants sometimes even within a season, or at most, two seasons, from then.
The viorna group - C. texensis, C. viorna, C. crispa, and so on, and their hybrids, are more like the large-flowered hybrids in that their seeds tend to be thicker-walled, tougher and take longer to germinate. Some might require periods of cold to help them germinate, but that's no problem - store your trays of seed pots where they feel the outside temperatures -I keep mine under the staging in the cold greenhouse - during the colder months they freeze and thaw with the natural cycle.
That leaves a large batch of species, and hybrids of species etc which take, on average, roughly 100-200 days or so to germinate - in other words 3 to 6 months or slightly more.
No matter what type you raise, treat them all the same in the first year after germination. There is no need to complicate anything more than needs be. And just because some need shorter periods to germinate, it doesn't follow that they are any less enjoyable or beautiful than those which take longer - they are just different types of plants. Some of the orientalis-group plants (the small-yellow-flowered group) will give seedlings which will fill a two litre pot with roots, and flower beautifully, even in the very first season after germination, even for the first-time raiser. So ideally you could start with a mix of several types of seeds, some of which will come relatively quickly, along with some that will take longer - that way you can be seeing germinations quickly, and then tending young plants, and bringing them to flower, even while you are waiting for the others to germinate.

However much effort you put into it I can promise you that the results will always more than outweigh the work.

This is just a quick reply so I have not thought every word through to the nth degree - so if anything seems ambiguous or unclear there is much more detailed info on the web site mentioned above. If you have access to seeds, have a look at the germination data (on the Germination page!), and just get an idea of what GROUP your seeds fall into - that will be sufficient for you to get a reasonable idea of how long they might take. Most of us start with seeds of large flowered hybrids from our own garden plants, and they are certainly a great way to start. You can look out for species seed sources as you go along; but do also try the orientalis group, the alpinas, the macropetals, you will be rewarded much more quickly and soon get bitten by "the bug".

Brian, thank you for visiting this thread ! There's no better authority than you - on this entire subject!

Jackie-O, I tried leaving a few seed-pots outdoors last winter and saw no noticable difference in germination times. I have mostly used my 'cool' basement as the germination area and this has worked well.

Miguel, the fungicide I will try indoors this year is called 'Bayer 3 in one' Systemic fungicide for roses. I have used it outdoors with great success. For seedlings I will dilute it to 1/2 strength.

Suzy

You flatter me Suzy but I am no more than just a. n. other amateur!

If you are another amateur Brian, the rest of us are nothing but the glimmer in the eye of our parents! Your modesty is very becoming and I too welcome you into this discussion.

Thanks Suzy. I thought I remembered that it was a Bayer product and Googled it and have come up with something that sounds the same and with the same properties but it was called Advanced Disease Control for Roses, Flowers, and Shrubs Concentrate.

That's the right Fungicide, Miguel. Ihave not yet given it a try on any new seedlings, since my plants were just brought inside recently. I was not at all happy with the old fungicide I was using.

By the way, the coir based soil you mentioned above worked great for germinations. It is made by Garden's Alive. The mix consists of a nice blend of coir, perlite and worm castings mixed into a soil/sand/peat base. I find it to be light and well draining. I have noticed very little damp-off. You can find it on the Garden's Alive web-site.
Suzy

Suzy thanks for the reply. From your and Brian's post I'm guessing I could winter sow them. I don't have the room or the lights indoors but I'd sure like to try this.

If you have one with the thicker walls, do you need to nick them to help stratify?

Thanks also for the heads up on coir from Garden's Alive. I've been trying to find coir locally with no luck. This sounds perfect.

Suzy, thanks for verifying the fungicide. This is the one you sprayed on your mature plants in your garden to prevent mildew, correct?

Also, were you able to use the coir material to germinate your clematis seeds without having to treat the soil in your pots with fungicide when you planted the seeds? I thought that was originally why you were trying this material. If you didn't use fungicide with the material, did you see any increase in number of germinations or rate of germinations?

JackieO, I don't stratify the seeds at all.

Miguel, I did not use any fungicide at seed planting time using Garden's Alive soil. This soil is not sterile, however the drainage is very good and the germination rate seems good. During summer, with the seedlings being 'outdoors' I only lost 1 new plant to damp-off out of the
60 + that were planted using this mix. No fungicide was used outdoors on these seedlings, as the air circulation and sunlight are a natural preventative. I have not yet seen what amount of 'winter damp-off' I will experience with this soil. This is the hardest part of keeping seedlings alive indoors. If I see any damp-off at all, I will use the fungicide I mentioned above. The soil I have been using for years was a home-made mixture of loam,manure, compost and bone-meal. I had way too much damp off with this home-made mixture and use of a fungicide at planting time was needed. The catch 22 was that the fungicide I used seemed to inhibit germination, very odd ! But, since using Garden's Alive soil, I have had better germination and less plant loss so far, and as I have said, the real test is indoor disease control and I have not yet had the winter to assess whether this soil is superior in this respect. We shall see as winter progresses. The nutrient balance seems to be fine for clematis and they like it. The plants are sturdy and doing well.
Suzy

Thanks for the information Suzy!