It's not always that simple, tolerance of some species varies with total combination of site conditions. A species can be very shade tolerant all of the time, as Pacific silver fir is thought to be, or it can be shade tolerant on some sites and intolerant on others, as said to be the case with Subalpine fir. Regarding your list in general true firs and spruces come up among other trees in the wild, can take some shade, whereas pines are usually seral (pioneer trees) and quite unhappy about being shaded. Growth of planted specimens can become quite quickly and markedly altered when shadows lie over the site.

Grouping each species on your list into the three categories you erected may not be possible based on the experiences of gardeners.

May be too early in the morning but I'm not catching on.

I thought, genetically (in its native habitat), a species will have some type of shade/crowding tolerance or intolerance. Are you saying since I'm planting plants that aren't in their native habitat it may not apply?

Picea glauca and Pinus strobus are native to my area so based on observation they both have some tolreance, P.glauca more so than Pinus strobus.

bboy said.. ITS NOT THAT SIMPLE ...

vigor is defined by the annual growth rate ...

if you reduce vigor... by reducing appropriate sunlight.. you will impact the growth rate .....

IMHO ... short of a very dark grotto ... nothing is going to die ... its just going to grow weirdly .... and that is not SIMPLE to define ..

annual growth rates may or may not stunt .... it may not be as 'full' .... yellows will green ... etc... much speculation ...

i have one concolor in full sun ... looks like a mature fat albert in its stoutness ...

i have a second in very bright light.. but full shade ... it has grown much taller.. faster ... but it is nearly transparent ... see through .... its not as dense ... so it has not impacted annual growth rate.. but the thing seems to be stretching ...

again ... WING IT .. give it a go ... defining ambient light is nearly impossible.. let alone speculating as to how it will impact growth is totally impossible ....

how the shade is made.. might be more important... e.g. if you are trying to find the tolerance of a conifer.. under a norway maple.. odds are.. the maple will choke and kill the conifer.. before we ever find out the light was insufficient ....

make any more sense..

ken

Whaas:

Your list and the order you have given it is probably as good as you can do. Firs are generally a bit more tolerant than spruces, and of the spruces, the Colorado spruce may be less tolerant than the others, among which there may not be much difference. Pines tend to be less tolerant than fir and spruce.

But I would not plant, or fully enjoy, any of these trees if they were growing in anything but very light shade. The firs and the spruces, with the exception perhaps of the colorado spruce, will look good growing under the light shade of black locust, but none would look good or grow well under a sugar maple.

Also, conifers will tend to grow better in the shade of deciduous trees. I would not try to grow anything, except perhaps a hemlock, under white pine, for example.

I hope this helps. If you have any questions, maybe I could elaborate a bit.

--Spruce

Thanks guys, I know it can be a dynamic situation but I am trying to generalize. If I can locate plants according to future exposures and take in cosideration the plants tolerance or intolerance, then why not consider it.

For example in the plan below I'm taking out the Norway in the back right hand corner and replacing with a Abies concolor. Currently that spot is shaded from all east and southeast sun. Once the Picea omorika matures the spot will be shaded from the south. It will then only be exposed to southwest sun for about 3 hours then the house will shade the area. I'm sure the Norway would be fine but why not put a fir in there if its more likely to adapt (plus the blue fluffy look will be more comp. to the omorikas).

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which is the omorika????

doesnt matter.. if they mature together.. that is different than planting a babe in the shade of a 100 footer ...

i think your cold is fuzzing things up ...

and why is SE opposite north ....

and why isnt the map turned.. so north is the top .. like any regular person would do it???? ... i almost popped a cervical disc trying to look at it oriented properly ...

and where is east.. where the sun comes up???? opposite the side that is labeled south and west.. the bottom?????

so many questions.. not enough cold remedy .. i favor scotch ... it might not do anything for the cold.. but i dont give a darn ... lol ...

BTW.. i have two pungens in full dark shade.. late to burst bud ... not quite as blue in spring.. but the blue holds longer ... and i swear they havent grow much in years... 'something knight' and and maybe globosa ... check the list i sent and look for BED A ...

ken

ps: hope you feel better ... i am positive this reply wont help. .. lol ... wheres the NyQuil ....

I agree with Bboy & Ken about various shades of shade, if you will, but generally speaking...

Of the ones listed I'd put Picea omorika as the most shade tolerant. After all, part of it's native range includes steep, north-facing mountain slopes. As mentioned, pines generally need sun but cembra seems to take more shade than the rest. Pinus ayachuite is probably hardy only to zone 6.

tj

Tj, beaver creek is touting/selling Pinus ayachuite Forest Sky as zone 4b hardy. Would you avoid this plant? I was under the impression that Picea omorika was more tolerant to crowding based on images online...I'm pretty happy with that selection in the plan.

ken, below is a better look.

AA = Aesculus 'Autumn Splendor'
AC = Abies concolor
AP = Aesculus Pavia #5
AS = Acer saccharum��Legacy� or �Green Mountain�
CC = Cercis canadensis #5
CJ = Cercidiphyllum japonicum�
CK = Cornus kousa
Cloud - Sheri's Cloud
CR = Carpinus caroliniana #5
G = Picea glauca var densata
GB = Ginkgo bioblia �Autumn Gold�
GG = Thuja Green Giant
LT = Liriodendron tulipifera
MJ = Magnolia 'Jane'
NC = Picea abies �Cupressina�
NS = Nyssa sylvatica #5
O = Picea omorika
OV = Ostrya virginiana #5
P = Picea pungens
PC = Pinus cembra
PF = Pinus strobus Fastigiata
PO = Picea Orientalis�Aureospicata�
PP = Asimina Triloba #5
PR = Malus �Prairiefire�
PV = Pinus flexilis 'Vanderwolf's
QB = Quercus bicolor�#5
QE = Quercus ellipsoidalis #5
Seven - Seven Son Flower
TD = Taxodium distichum #5

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Check out the link below. It lists various species based on tolerance.

Here is a link that might be useful: Shade Tolerance

I think Pinus ayachuite 'Forest Sky' is actually a cross...maybe with strobus? Not sure...but it is supposed to be hardier.

tj

i think forest sky is a gary gee plant that he found somewhere in MI .... some college.. but i must have killed most of that brain cell ... might call gee's if you really want to know ...

and try the search.... because i also think someone speculated as to its heritage way back when, when i posted some pix of it years ago ...

if you find the old post.. i can figure out how to repost the pix ...

its a pretty aggressive pine ... and bluish ... i might think that there are many options that would be better ....

ken

here are the pix of forest sky. cones might tell some of you something ...

i would guess that annual growth rate is going on 18 to 24 inches per year .... as it ages ....

ken
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with a good frost
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I was thinking about using this guy in lieu of Pinus strobus as it has a much more narrow habit.

There are multiple Pinus strobus around my subdivision. The largest one is about 30' by 15'...about 18 years old.

here is what erniew said, in a post here on GW back on Tuesday, August 29, 2006 10:16 PM:

Ken,

I'm on a personal, if slow moving, quest to sort out the P. ayacahuite x strobus hybrids. But first, pronunciation probably depends on what part of the Spanish speaking world one hails from. I live with a guy from Central Mexico and two from Nicaragua and there is a fair amount of discussion between them about the language and pronunciations. Since the pine is from Mexico and not Nicaragua, I'll side with Osprey as the proper pronunciation. Back to the plant; At the nursery that I work, we grow a hybrid that we call Mexican White or Hybrid pine. There is one at the Bickelhaupt Arboretum in Clinton, IA and one at the Dawes Arb. in Newark, OH. Both are identical to the plant that we grow. Needles are about 5-7' long on an established and vigorous plant and of nice, silvery-blue-green color. At Hidden Lakes Garden, there is a plant labeled 'Forest Sky' purchased from Klehm's place. The foliage is 2-4' long and of a nice silvery-blue-green color. I think the image at Kl!
ehm's site looks more like the plant that we grow and not like the one at H.L. What can you tell me about your tree: where from, foliage characteristics, etc? From the picture it appears more like the plant that we grow but I take enough pictures to know that pictures can be deceiving. By the way, are there any seed collector's/propagators here? I have already offered Dax some seed from our Hybrid Ayacahuite Pine but there's probably a half a pickup load to pick.

Thanks,
Ernie

Forest Sky At Hidden Lakes:
see link

erniew

===>>>> apparently 2006 posts are gone from GW ... as is ernie .....

ken

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:638112}}