Well I don't know about me at this point, Claire, but thanks for the kind words.

John, however, I think if he were willing to make the drive or whatever, I might be able to get him an invite to Palmetto Gardening, even though he's a Tarheel gardener, lol, just because of how he's been around and some of the different things he's done.

Soyawannadoashow, huh, Claire?
Hmmmmmmm, how about "Got Plants?"
:)

Jeff, I think your advice is the best about making noise to avoid snakes. Anytime I remember to do that "huh-hum", I have never see a snake around where I am working. Even just taking the rake and banging it around where you work and then just give it a few minutes for the varmints to clear out. For some reason, I can't get myself to be "snake aware" when I'm outside working. I just figure everything out there knows who I am and should leave me alone lol. It works most of the time, even with bees and wasps. I guess its because I have a mockingbird that follows me around everytime I go out, and this wierd little bumble bee that just acts like an escort when I am in the garden working. It doesn't bother me, just hangs in the air right in front of me as if its taking notes. My point is that if you are going to garden at your home, you should make your presence known as often as possible. I believe that the wildlife will get to know you and accept that you belong there. Is that nuts? Just old school I guess.

Yeah, Jeff, I've always wanted to be in showbiz, since I was a little kid...you were leafing through nature books and I was putting on shows with the neighborhood kids. One problem...no talent on this end.

I never thought plants would be my portal into the biz, although we have a MGV in Lee County who is the Julia Child of Horticulture. Quirky, funny, cute, and full of knowledge(sorta like you!). Several of us have tried to convince her to market herself.

saying that a person's "been around" is a good thing right???

Jeff - didn't I tell you that my mama's from Belton, south of Greenville on the way to Anderson?? love that part of the planet. That makes me half South Carolinian doesn't it?

For a brief time I worked for the state tourism dept in Oklahoma (talk about your uphill battle!) - & I tried in vain to get a simple camping/hiking show off the ground. Wanted to call it "Happy Campers" and get some of the sillier talent in the region to ham it up for the camera while showing people what they were missing while they sat inside and watched football (a religon in the plains states). Who wouldn't wanna view the cow chip throwing contest in Beaver OK?

I'm afraid my "close-up" days are over - it would have to be on radio.

It IS radio, John.

As for Oklahoma "tourism," I'm thinking tornado watching should be right up there! :)

Belton, huh?

YouwannaIshouldcalloremail Bob Polomski?

And don't like talking about them but I killed one today. He was where I was storeing my concrete for my pond.
here is a picture of that bad snake.
{{gwi:585546}}

what kind of snake

John, have you not seen Larry King, Mo Rocca or Howard Stern. Emeril Lagasse is no Brad Pitt either. TV still maintains a gender bias for men in the glamour dept. Women can only be less than gorgeous if they are Oprah or Judge Judy (magnates & shrews are allowed). This being said, the R in NPR still stands for "radio."

Reading this over, I'm realizing that King and Stern started in radio and I forgot to mention Julia Child who was no looker.

Nevermind!

Basil, I don't know what kind of snake that is (probably not poisonous), but it sure looks menacing in that picture and if it was striking at me as I tried to capture it, I must admit I might have been striking back with the sharp end of a shovel, too.

Things depend on the situation you're in at the time. I'd prefer to catch and/or relocate a snake, but if it has ME feeling cornered, well, we do what we have to, huh?

Now somebody who knows snakes, like Wayne in Missouri tell us what this is, please.

Claire,

I took the picture with a point and click Olympus digital camera. It has a little bit of a digital zoom so I can take pictures from three to four feet away and don't have to get right down with the snakes.

Basil,

That's a Northern Water Snake. They are nonvenomous and harmless but can be defensive when cornered. They are very common around ponds.

Yep, poor harmless water snake got shoveled. I understand that some people don't like snakes, for no good reason, like some people don't like spiders. What I don't get is people disliking snakes so intensely that they are motivated to kill them - the same people that might bemoan the loss of lizards or skinks or shrews to cats. Did you know that shrews have venomous saliva? No kidding. Skinks will bite you in a heartbeat if cornered - just as a snake would. Cute little squirrels and chipmunks can carry rabies, fleas, and ticks. What is it about having no legs? The notion that all snake bites are poisonous is nonsense. All breaks in your skin can introduce bacteria, but that's the extent of it. Water snakes, genus Natrix, happen to make not very good pets - they will bite if cornered and they are not particularly easy-going, as a hognose snake or red rat snake might be. Still, why kill them? They eat rodents - so don't complain about voles or mice if you kill your snakes. As a teenager, I had a job feeding and caring for snakes at an education center (in the now destoyed Biloxi); snakes are pretty innocuous, shy creatures. I have killed a nest of copperheads on a property my son was hired to mow, but I felt I had no choice. When my younger son was 3, he almost walked into a cottonmouth while picking blueberries - I yelped, grabbed him, and stomped my feet until the cottonmouth retreated. The snake was not "out to get" my son. It's funny about having no legs, and I think it might be hard-wired in our brains. My cats will grab and kill a lizard or skink in a flash, but they are both careful and tentative when they spot a snake, even a 4-inch worm snake. Weird.

Our society instills and perpetuates this fear. Some of it is interpreted by some people from the Bible. Kids are taught at an early age not to get near them. Then as adults even though they may be educated in the beneficial role of snakes, they have a hard time identifying good from bad and just "play it safe". Personally I don't think there is anything safe about handling a wild snake or even approaching one- just as I think the same of any wild animal.

I'm totally with Brenda on the kill issue. As petrified as I am of poisonous snakes. If there is any way to relocate them, I will go the extra yards to do so. I talk to lizards as if they were dogs and would do so with snakes as well if I wasn't so darned scared of them.

Last summer when leaving a neighborhood "National Night Out" party, I was walking beside a Sanford Police officer down a brick walkway. Suddenly he said, "Mrs. Pickett, don't move." I had almost stepped on a Copperhead. The officer killed the snake with a shovel by beheading him. There was no attempt to save the snake, but a strong desire to exterminate him. Maybe the most expedient thing to do with a few people still around the yard. My Sanford born neighbors always kill C-heads immediately upon discovery and brag about it. I always think it's just one of hundreds in the woods around here...lots of water too...manmade lakes and drainage ditches.

My countrified friend (from IL/MO way back), told me the other day about the Blue Racer snakes in the Midwest. They chase you in the field and change direction if you try to trick them and go a different way. John and Wayne, you must know what she's talking about. To me that was a tale out of a freaky, nightmarish cartoon. I would die of fright. Like Indiana Jones said, looking down into that ancient Egyptian room, "Why'd it have to be snakes!?"

BTW, Wayne,your water snake looks quite similar to my snake, only thicker.

peace, claire in sanford

Brenda- I think you're so right about the no legs thing being hard-wired. I was digging the other day and the BIGGEST wiggling earthworm was throwing himself around and it really startled me and grossed me out. Spiders don't seem to phase me, even though I know they can be treaturous. (my daughter loves to tell stories about the camel spiders in Afghanistan and how they actually chase you.) I could never kill a snake because I wouldn't be able to hold anything steady enough to do the deed. And from learning here from all of you about the benefits of certain types, I think I'm SLOWLY learning to appreciate their value - with or without legs. S L O W L Y Y Y Y Y.
-Nan

I suspected that was a Northern Water Snake, Wayne, but it still DOES look menacing in that photo.

Can't judge Basil on what he did, not knowing his situation and circumstance, though, and as I said above, although I say my preference is to relocate, I can't say my "heebie-jeebie" factor and fear the snake would just hide some place to later make a "sneaky-snake" attack wouldn't have overwhelmed my desire to stick to my scruples... just trying to be fair, and honest.

I'd be really happy if the scientists who keep working on genetic engineering found a way to introduce something into the wild that would make all the non-venomous species have a sort of "smiley-face" look to them, so we could tell them apart from the venomous snakes, but I really DON'T expect anything like that to happen, lol.

Happy SnakeTails! :)
Jeff

We have had a baby rat snake in the house, which we really thought was a copperhead. We CAREFULLY put him in a bucket and searched for pictures, found out what he was and let him go in the woods. It was still a little hard to sleep that night:)

NC SNAKE CAMOUFLAGE site helped us, saved a baby snake and my sanity.

Here is a link that might be useful: NCSU's NC SNAKE CAMOUFLAGE

Good site, raabette.

Added it to my collection, lol.

Just want to make sure I offended no one - I did not intend to judge - just present my view and puzzlement. Also, when I lived in Mobile, AL (very briefly, don't move there, definitely a judgment), we were the second house in a new development of 25 new homes. As the homes got built, the snakes got displaced. I became known as the snake lady for my views. When a neighbor found a snake, he/she sent the neighborhood kids to fetch Miss Brenda with her leather gloves. I took the snakes to the local pet store, which paid me handsomely, and we financed several neighborhood barbeques with the proceeds. The lots were beautiful coastal not-quite-wetland, with slightly boggy areas literally covered with pitcher plants and sundews. I collected huge bouquets of chartreuse, gorgeous pitcher plant flowers. I cried as they bulldozed, but I was unaware then that I could have been rescuing plants - dumb me. It left me with a personal awareness of the loss the earth suffers from human development, and that I am part of the problem.

And by the way, if you see a snake you don't know or woods about to be bulldozed, email me - I will likely come running.

Over the protests of many local people, the Spartanburg Country Club just had 50 or so acres it owned near Lawson's Fork Creek clear-cut for the lumber, regardless of potential damage to the watershed and floodplain... The finally agreed to a 100-foot buffer for the creek, but local scientists are saying more like 1,000 feet is preferable for a creek that big to properly filter our pollutants from the environment, silt and just do the basic job the watershed needs done.

Country Club wouldn't even give a real reason, nor let someone else pay them not to cut, as far as I could tell, from the articles I've seen... Won't specify a use for the land, either.

I don't know about the land, but I have some thoughts on where some of that timber could have been shoved :-(O
Jeff

Jeff, I can better (or worse that). In Johnston County the forest was clear-cut right up to the banks of either Swift or Middle Creek, which are both tributaries of the Neuse. The 50' buffer for the Neuse and its tributaries does not bar logging.

Oh I'm guessing it'll all sort itself out, Alicia, about the time our world population sort of "magically" reduces its numbers from 8 billion... 10 billion... whatever the number is when we hit the "critical mass" where we finally bring the entire ecosystem falling in on ourselves -- back down to a more sustainable 2 or 3 billion -- or possibly much less -- depending on exactly WHAT factor(s) contribute to the population "adjustment."

It's only a matter of time, I think :(
Jeff

after that severly depressing thought- let's get back on the thread track.
i'm going to try and post my pix here, finally. we went to see the babies & shoot them last night. 12 of them- about 6" long. thanks for being so patient, everyone!

first, pregnant mama. see how her tail tapers very suddenly? that's a way to tell she's pregnant. she was not that big, by the way- her body was a couple inches in girth, and she's about 28" long.
{{gwi:583389}}

another view of her:
{{gwi:583392}}

all the babies together. 12- count them. a couple of heads are half hidden! hard to imagine she had all these in her! these are postnatal shed:
{{gwi:583394}}

last, a closeup of junior. he's shot in the ame spot as mom a couple weeks earlier- note the size of the moss to get an idea of scale. note the green/yellow tail.
{{gwi:583396}}

They are truly gorgeous; too bad they're so poisonous. And it's amazing that all those babies were carried by that relatively slim mama.

Thanks for sharing those remarkable photos, tamelask

I've gotta tell ya, I don't think I've seen pictures of a baby of any nonvenomous species coiling in a striking pose the way "Junior" is. I think if I came on him I'd have NO TROUBLE telling he was a copperhead, lol. I'd be looking for a bucket and something heavy to put on it while I went for a pillowcase and my grabber stick and a broom.

Great pics, Tammy!

By the way, it IS depressing -- particularly since NOBODY seems to really want to address population growth -- France is about to start paying women to take a year off to HAVE another child!

Until we wake up and live responsibly towards the future of the planet and ourselves instead of living in our own little fantasy worlds, we make the future look increasingly more bleak. Will no one agree we need to address population growth?

They are beautiful snakes -- great pictures.

Phenomenal photos of gorgeous creatures! Hey, Jeff, the reason you haven't seen a baby of any species coiling back in a strike pose is because you've never nursed a hungry baby human, lol.

thanks, guys! actually, he isn't in a striking pose. alvin(my neighbor) said that's a relaxed/ watchful kind of posture- one they take one most often when resting. he wasn't aggressive at all. the other baby was determined to scoot- and struck at alvin's shoe(only once) as he tried to corral him in. after that he knew from the heat pits it wasn't something he could bite. he said if our hands were that close, he'd have struck unhesitatingly. in fact, he mentioned that when they were all riled up after he transferred them to the aqurium, one popped another one, to no reaction. they are autoimmune, so the bitten guy just fllinched & moved on.

i was about 12" away shooting these- my camera doesn't zoom that much. i felt very comfortable. they are so gorgeous in real life, i can see whre the attraction is for some people keeping them as pets. me, i'll be happy if i never stumble upon one out in nature, thanks. i like having a competant snake handler standing next to me!

jeff, i almost choked when i read that about france today in the paper after your comments yesterday. all for political power! jeez- let in more immigrants & make them citizens if you're that desperate. but nooo- we(the world) couldn't do that- it would solve too many problems. t

adopt children and invite homeless to become members of your family... what's the difference?

Help people who're here before making more.

true. that's part of why we stopped at 2.

jeff, now i'm up on my soapbox, so watch out. Other problems in our country need to be solved before population issues can even be touched. look back at the superdome and the convention center. the most lovely thing in all that chaos and filth was the children. poor people have little control over their lives and no power to get the things that all of us have. The one thing that is beautiful and within reach is children.

if we work on peace & justice, the rest will take care of itself. right now there is NO VOICE for these things in our nation or the world. it's sadly ironic that religion is the loudest voice. sometimes it's tempting not to come out of the garden at all. Is this a snake thread?

peace, claire in sanford

I agree with you about helping the people -- especially the children -- in the aftermath of Katrina, Claire...

However, MOST of the population growth problem worldwide and nationwide is skewed dramatically towards to the lower SES (i.e., the poor), because they have less education about birth control, less accesibility to birth control and other health services and adults have far fewer "recreational activities" other than sex... Further, the lower the SES, the more like the subculture is to be male-dominated or at the very least have more males who are more "macho," and equate their virility with their importance and power as human beings... Likewise, many of the poor, young ladies in such communities feel no value until they have a child, or several.

So if we REALLY want to help the poor, we could start by helping them control their population growth -- almost ALL of the excessive population growth in the world is amongst people who are living at or below the poverty level.

If we're going to feed the children, we should also educate the adults and teach them birth control and give them the means, so we may ALL enjoy the copperheads in our yards (just to keep this thread SLIGHTLY on-topic) :)

Jeff, you are applying your own white, middle class values to other people's lives. I know families here in Sanford that don't care if their kids have Ralph Lauren clothes or a private school education, just enough to eat, clothes on their back, a couple of toys and a public education. They just love their kids and most of the time are happy. And, how are you going to change guys who equate virility with impregnation? You just plain can't...try to get these guys to a counselor...every try? It is their value, not ours, and not something that can be taught as in a training. Why would they NOT want kids? What would you give them instead, a Lexus?

What we need to change is our lack of a national healthcare system and we need decent initiatives for the poor all around. Most churches around here would rather sit around eating cornbread than mentor a family. Ever sit in on a poor person's medicaid prenatal appt.? Boy, does the system need a workover. And I guess we found out how our government feels about the poor in the last few weeks. Enough..we need to get back to gardening before I get thrown out of here.

Plant, flower, root, leaf, compost..this is all about gardens.

lmao, Claire... yeah we need to start pushin' more compost aforn weuns gits pushed outta here, lol.... and snakes... snakes hidin' in the compost 'cause the meeses made their nesties in there 'cause somebodies put meaties in the compost like they hain't supposed to... yeah, let's see who's done that???

Not me :)

:) ...wished you were at the Raleigh swap today, Jeff, but I know you would have been if you could.

Wouldacouldabeenfun, I'm sure...

Maybe next year.

Any butterflies?
:)

I didn't see any, but take the "butter" away and you'll know what we had hundreds of (they smelled FOOOOOOOOD and lots of it). It was a beautiful day though, very cool and breezy, spent with cool and breezy people.

i think it's interesting that critter posts get the most follow-ups ... i went through the post history
and it seems this thread is 2nd only to the "jed & jethro" (frogs) post - it got 91 follow-ups.

i have no life when the sun sets :)
marsha

marsha, thanks for that independent survey. Actually, I thought I would be honored in some way yesterday for starting such a notable thread from that humble little scary moment in my pink nightgown and rose pruning gloves. Guess not, no tiara was offered, not even a citation from the Lollipop Guild. heehee!

I'll give all I have to offer, dear Claire...

{{gwi:585548}}

Just a croaky smile for someone who helps us all smile a lot!
Jeff

Claire, I didn't realize you had such visions of grandeaur (how the heck do you spell that word?). At Pinehurst they reward good work with ataboy emails. So consider this my atagirl email to the all powerful puppyscruff of the sharp teeth (tongue) ha. Adele

Thanks, Jeff and Adele, I feel properly recognized now.

Jeff, I had a bad experience early this afternoon with a frog, so it's extra nice to get that HUGE smiling one from you. I saw a frog on its back in the throes of death..and it really upset me...just one of those off moments. A little voice kept saying, "it's only a frog" but at that moment I couldn't deal with it.

Now that I'm no longer "vaklempt" (anyone know the yiddish spelling?), I'll move on and say, yes, Adele, puppyscruff has a wicked pen, but lately she's been using it more for fun, and it feels good. (notice how I'll be referring to myself in the 3rd person from now on!)

Come on now, ONE MORE POST and I'll be tied for the top seed. Where are you, Marsha?

peace, claire in sanford

ok, the tying follow-up is in! ta da!
the daughter snuck my yiddish dictionary
back to ny with her last month, but a rapid
google scan says it's verklempt. i backed
out of my front door one night and my
left heel came right down on a toad, killing
it swiftly. i love toads, and it was verklempting.

congrats on the tie. nice tiara :)
marsha

You CROAKED a TOAD, Marsha?!?!?
Oh How FRAWGAwFULLY of You!!!

GalumpGalumpGalump! :(~~~

I'm taking my bows...can you see me...oops my tiara fell off!

About 3 years ago I ran over a box turtle in my driveway. That was similarly traumatic, marsha. Shush, Jeff.

Yesterday, my husband called me out to the porch with one of those, "you've GOT to see this." Since all the dogs had been with me at the time, I knew it had to be a wild critter of some kind and not some of their canine antics. Sure enough (he'd been trimming boxwoods along the porch), it was a yellow rat snake on top of one of the bushes...aware of us and afraid to more. It was great to be able to identify it readily from that HUGE picture posted on this thread.

i feel awful when i step on a frog or toad. we have so many if you go out at night, it's hard to avoid them. i think i'd commit hari-kari if i killed a turtle by accident. i bawled the day i found out on the rd in front of our house- i am a real softie when it comes to turtles. i need one of those 'i brake for turtles bumpers stickers', 'cause it's true! my kids know it, too- they came home one day saying the bus almost hit one, and made me drop everything & go look for it. didn't find it- but hubby coming through 20 mins later did(and he hadn't talked to us). she was a big slider looking to lay eggs. guess i've rubbed off on everyone. :) we have 2 box turtles- they are so much fun.

claire, you deserve your taira- couple more posts & this one will be retired! can't get any better than that. it was so much fun meeting you & getting to chat. take care- tammy

My friend who lives in the woods told me today that she has a box turtle who keeps coming back to her trailer to eat dog food and ask for a drink of water. Her chihuahua seems to enjoy his company!

Tammy, one time I backed over one with my car on the driveway. I am "marked" for life by that event, it was so traumatic. I just wish the powers that be in Washington would have as much kinship for Iraqui children and Lousiana families as we do for turtles and frogs. Maybe someday, when we are no longer on this earth plane, we will understand the intricacies of the human heart.

I love this quotation: "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans, and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

At some point, a leader must emerge in the western world who echoes the humanity of Gandhi.

peace, claire in sanford

Wonderful meeting you and your family too!

Haha, just checked this thread to see what was still so interesting about snakes. Yeah SURE it's gotten a lot of posts, but it's all Jeff and Claire ;o)
I have nothing to add, just wanted to help to make it hit that 100!
-Ais.

hey claire -
who is the source of that great quote, if you know ...

ummmm... Ghandi!?
Sorry, it would be easy to miss but she does kinda say who it was. -Ais.

so i see now, after you drew me a picture, alicia :)