Thanks for the link to that interesting article. I had cardinal/cypress vine confusion this year. After I started looking into it I realized I must not be the only one--the seed packet I bought was labeled Cypress Vine/Cardinal Climber. It turned out to be cardinal vine and I have seen hummingbirds at it only rarely, possibly because the Salvia Guarantica black & blue is right beside it and that is, by far, their favorite here.

Thanks for the link! A mystery finally solved.

Funny, Roberta, I had the exact opposite. My seed packet said Cardinal Climber Vine (Ferry Morse by the way uh-hmm) and my vine turns out to be a Cypress vine. Sorta makes one think differently about these seed companies huh.

Both vines are commonly called cardinal vine, which is why the situation is so confused.

The biological name is Ipomoea quamoclit. Hope this helps.

My first email was incomplete, sorry!
The biological name is Ipomoea quamoclit for Cypress Vine.
The biological name for Cardinal flower is Ipomoea x multifida.
Would this grow well on the NW side of the house? Thanks
Linda

Those like a lot of sun -- the vine will flower best if it gets at least 6 hours of sun.

I think we established last summer that those vines go back and forth. The seeds are not true and can turn out with either type of leaf and either orange or red. I love them all even though they are very weedy. Oh, to walk outside right now and have one blooming...that would mean February is only a dream!

I think that's why cribcreek had that problem with the seeds. I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it.

The hybrid goes back and forth. The species is true.

Yet another scientific definition of Cypress Vine

In my Reader's Digest, NORTH AMERICAN WILDLIFE guide book, it states that Cypress Vine, 'Quamoclit pennata', is a native American tropical vine with fern-like pennate leaves sold as Annual red morning glory 'Ipomoea quamoclit' in the USA, (It is NOT listed as a morninglory or with the morninglories). It was introduced in North America and has now become "naturalized' in many states.
It reseeds true.

The other naturalized species, 'Quamoclit coccinea' Cardinal Vine, is the broad-leafed species that is hardier and is found in the more northern areas of the country.

Both species have red flowers.
The seed of the newer hybrids generally revert back to the 'species' red color.

It is thought by some to be a "noxious pest" in some areas.

There is also the 'Standing Cardinal', often called the Cardinal flower, Ipomopsis rubra, that looks much like the vine. It has very similiar tiny red trumpet flowers atop 4-6 ft stems with thread-like leaves. It is altogether a different genus. It is a butterfly and hummingbird magnet and is a native wildflower - not a pest like Cypress vine and Cardinal vine.

There are even more plants that are commonly called 'Cardinal Flower'. Sure can see the need for using the scientific names, especially in trades and purchases to ensure getting the right plant, but then again, even botinists don't always agree on plant family/genus identifications. It can be very confusing.

(I am by no means a scientist, so excuse me if I got some of my terminology wrong)
~SweetAnnie4u

Tammy, this is what John said last year (may I quote you, John?):

"The little trumpet flowered vines with bright red to bright orange flowers are most often the genus quamoclit with the two most common forms being the cardinal vine or cardinal creeper and cypress vine or cypress creeper. All depends on who you are talking to and if the leaves are finely cut or thickly cut or not cut at all. Once they get introduced into your yard they can change year to year because they are annuals which crossbreed with others in this genus - so you might plant cardinal creeper but in a few years the plants that come up in the early summer might be orange instead of red and their leaves might be whole instead of fern-like. So the way the leaves look and the color of the flowers is variable which makes it hard to determine the real name of the plant. They are all in the morning glory group."

I think that is what I meant when I said they go back and forth. What are you and Alicia saying?... educate this barefoot girl without a textbook. I see them coming up transformed and I know I didn't plant them that way originally. I guess the seed is fine, but it's just very easily influenced by pollination.

Ipomoea is the morning glory genus.

The hybrids have genes of both species (entire leaves, divided leaves, different shades of red, pink, orange), so as they reproduce the genes are shuffled and redistributed in different ways and the progency look different from the parent. Expression of genes is affected by dominance of a gene, genetic modifiers, the environment affecting the expression of certain genes so variation could be almost infinite. For example, let's say that theoretically red is dominant and pink is recessive, two red vines could produce a pink vine because both parents carried a gene for pink that was not expressed because the red gene was dominant. There can be variation within a species too, obviously, but there would be even more if these species are hybridizing.

If one of these vines is a hybird between between cypress vine (Ipomoea quamoclit) and red morning glory (Ipomoea coccineus) this could explain all the differences. Either that or there really is that much variation within a species. I believe the cardinal vines were classified first as Impomoea, then as Quamoclit, but this will probably change again; assignments by taxonomists are somewhat arbitrary, and dividing lines decided by judgement.

thanks, alicia. That's pretty much what I thought, Genetics 101. That's what I was meaning to say when i used the expression "go back and forth." So then, whenever you have a hummingbird or cypress or cardinal vine, how would you really know if it's a hybrid or the other pure species,( what is the word you would use for a pure species with true seeds that can't be crossed)?

Thanks for your help, oh fountain of green knowledge!

I may still sound foolish, but that's ok, I'm willing to wear the dunce cap to learn this. My tiara is at the cleaners.

If the foliage is very finely divided, it's almost certainly cypress vine, Ipomoea quamoclit . Otherwise it's probably Ipomoea x multifida. I don't know how it was determined that Ipomoea x multifida is a hybrid, whether through genetic analysis or because the progeny can be variable as John says.

So, merely fine foliage eliminates a plant as a hybrid. That's seems a little doubtful, given all the crossing. Wouldn't that characteristic be just one of the many in the genetic grab-bag?

Oh... Kay... if it has very finely divided foliage and breeds true, it's probably Impomoea quamoclit. If it has characteristics intermediate between I. quamoclit and I. coccinea, it's probably a hybrid. Feel free to investigate yourself if you want to know more; it's not that important to me.

One thing people seem to have a really hard time understanding is that species are not always hard and true divisions. Native azaleas are classified as separate species and yet they interbreed. Sometimes different species are divided by taxomists because of the different numbers of stamens or some such a thing. You can believe me or not, but don't believe everything your elementary biology book tells you. Sterile hybrids occur when the species have different numbers of chromosomes, as with horses and mules; otherwise hybrids can be fertile.

Here is a link that may be useful: species

Nevermind.

dunno if this will clarify or not from my non-scientific viewpoint, but here goes. i had i. pennata for several yrs. then, after i got too vigorous in weeding that out, i found a source of seeds for i. quamoclit, which i'd seen and wanted really bad. anyhow, it seems more seedy/weedy than pennata, and comes up all over(no hope of weeding it all out)- but always with the extremely fine ferny foliage. i have some regular ipomeas(blue heaven, saucers, granpa otts, etc.- those are multifidas) that bloom at the same time and all over each yr, but have never seen them cross with or noticed any recognisable crosses of them and quamoclit(or pennata when i grew it). the common multifida ones cross every which way but loose with each other, but at least for me they haven't boogied with quamoclit.

pup- i understood your question, but don't know the answer. it makes sense that it would be part of the genetic grab bag, but i haven't seen evidence of it. maybe your yard/experience is just that. i didn't mean that species don't or can't cross earlier, just that if the seeds are pure species, they should come true. we count on seedsman to label things correctly and breed them true. there's no way to really tell, though, just by the seeds(or plants), but i hadn't seen those 2 buggers cross or spontaneously mutate. however, because the common names are so similar, they certainly could get mixed up in a seed packet. and, who's to say some birds or storms didn't help along with some seeds from neighbor's yards? anyhow, i probably was making too many assumptions & should have kept my lip buttoned. i hope i didn't hurt any feelings.

and, that's a good ? about what you call a species that can't cross. anyone?

A species that can't cross is a species. Species that can cross are also called species. Species are a continuum of variation. Differences between species are even harder to tell apart in plants than in animals. The fact that species are constantly evolving, splitting and merging can make the distinctions even more difficult.

Yep, genus and species are taxonomic classifications, based on mostly physical/structural similarities, without much/any regard to genetic similarity, since virtually nothing was known of genetics when latin names were first assigned. That's why as more is learned about a plant, physically or genetically, the classification is sometimes corrected. Genes determine what can mate and produce viable offspring. Eventually, when everything's DNA is sequenced, we might have to have a totally new and different classification system.

Genetics has been used at least some in taxonomy, but will probably be used to a much greater extent in the future. The classification of the Yellow-breasted Chat was determined by genetic analysis a while back, mainly because no one knew where to classify it based on other features. Even with genetic analysis, differentiation into species will remain a gray area. How similiar is similiar enough? There will still be splitters and lumpers.

Well I've recieved both in trade this year from two different people. One is labled as Cardinal Vine and the other as Cypress Vine. Both seeds are slate grey in color, but the Cypress Vine seeds remind me of large mice droppings (for better lack of description!) and the Carninal Vine seeds are football shaped.
Since they can cross with one another, how far apart should I grow these? Would opposite sides of the house be far enough apart? Wishful thinking huh?! I also recieved Japenese and regular Morning Glories in trade but am scared now to plant them all in the yard.

Vera

if the seeds look different, there's a good chance that they are actually different varieties. the common names get mixed up all the time. the seeds of i. quamoclit (cypress) and i. pennata (cardinal) are pretty similar- pennata's being larger. the flowers look almost identical. if you don't mind them crossing seed wise you could just grow them together- and enjoy both leaf forms. you probably have enough seed for a couple yrs anyhow. when you want true seed, grow them further part and hand pollinate & cover if you really want tobe sure. as you can see from above there's a lot of debate about whether they actually cross or simply revert.

morning glories are wonderful flowers, and don't be afraid to grow different types. just be aware that all of them produce lots and lots of seed so you should deadhead to prevent problems the next yr. some will no doubt escape your fingers or scissors, and they'll be enough to have more going, or you can let some seed set at the end of the season. the only ones i haven't had tons of babies from are the flying saucers & heavenly blue. they don't seem to come true. they go back to the grandpa ott- looking coloration. have fun!

And now to throw something crazy in the mix - I don't think these guys really cross like I was told (and read somewhere long long ago). When I have planted both Cardinal and Cypress vine in my yard they never self sowed exactly like their parents - leading me to assume they were somehow crossing (even though they come from two different genera. And after a year or so a complete leaf form appeared leading me to think they were crossing with Red morning glory (I. cocineaus). Now I think the red guys moved in and took over from the fern leaved guys and that they never really crossed at all - they just all appeared at different times in the same flower bed. The red morning glory is the real thug here. It will come up anywhere and self seeds abundantly. The other two will sometimes succeed at self sowing but does best doing this with some winter shelter (like against a solid wall or fence).

There are so many invasive/introduced morning glories - and these flowers are so popular with the bee crowd - I doubt you can rely on anyone self sowing true to type. There's bound to be some mixing going on amoung flowers of the same genus at least.