Most succulents are hardier than you may think. Some of the caudiciforms that you have may very well be from tropical areas, but low 40's F is pretty safe for most species if you're unsure, especially if it warms up during the day so it doesn't remain cold - but freezing temps are tolerated by most succulents as long as the soil is dry.

I can only speak about Pachypodium from experience, the Madagascan species should be brought indoors at around the upper 40F, the South Africans are safe to around 32 F, but don't experiment if you're unsure!

x_nyc

x_nyc -

How critical is the dry soil/cool temp equation at this point - where they have been actively growing during the summer? Again, they do not appear to be showing any signs of dormancy (yellowing, dropping leaves). Granted, their growth rate has slowed - except my Pachy Inopinatum and Adenium Arabicum who thought it would be a good time to try to flower (they have since changed their minds and have treated me to a unopened flower bud display instead)!

In other words, it has been rainy here (probably by you, too) and cooler. Everyone feels very firm in their caudex, though - but should I be pulling them in out of the rain at this point and doing the inside and outside routine (another rainy weekend is being predicted here...I was thinking of putting them under my MH lights...)?

What do you think?

Thanks.

Tom

Hi there,
I'm in Western NY and the temps here are around 50 at night, but go to the 70s during the day. I currently have aloe, kalanchoe, and a pineapple top outside. When should I bring those in? The kalanchoe are all starting a lot of new growth right now.

When it is warm and plants are actively growing and in good soil, it's hard to overwater, but when it starts to cool down, growth slows and plants cannot use all the water available to them, which is what causes rot (a simplistic explanation).

It's hard to make a generalization about a wide range of plants...mccaba, I have aloes and kalanchoe that are still outside, unprotected, I've never had a problem keeping aloes (A. ferox, microstigma, jucunda, haworthiodes) and Kalanchoes (the fuzzy ones called tomentosa, and K. blossfeldiana) outdoors until freezing.

Most literature is outdated and contains info about plant care written by people who never owned the plants, and many books describe the care of plants at a time where they were new or exotic and no grower was taking any chances.

I have kept Pachypodium lamerei, geayi and namaquanum outdoors in the cold too.

Since I don't want to be held somewhat responsible for my advice, I would say that if several days in a row of cloudy, rainy weather is anticipated, keep the plants away from the rain. You can park them under an overhang if you've got one, no need to bring it indoors for warmth.

The last thing you'd want is a rotted caudex specimen.

The best thing you can do is experiment with some extra plants or cuttings, there's no book or article that can beat that.

Out of the 100's of species of cactus and succulents in my collection, the only ones that come to mind that did not survive a short bout of freezing were Adansonia digitata and Notocactus (Parodia) magnifica.

All cactus must be dry to survive. Other succulents, it depends - if they are warm weather growers, they must be dry: many Crassula, Mesembs, Aloes and others still grow during cool weather, so they can tolerate some moisture ONLY if it is warm/ sunny the next day so that they use up the moisture, otherwise they can rot.

Thanks for the info, x-nyc. I am in the middle of prepping their indoor space right now, so I am trying to buy a little more time.

Cool/wet is in the forecast this weekend (damn Ernesto) - what about in NY? What you are getting, I will get the next day...

BTW, I forgot to mention that I have an A. digitata, as well. It is in full leaf right now - still pushing new growth. I also have a bursera fagaroides and a commiphora monstruosa out there...

The only plant that has shown a few yellow leaves is my A. Arabicum since the weather started cooling - that and some flower buds. Go figure.

Accuweather is showing 50 for a low tonight here...so I think I am going to leav'em out there. Yikes!

Tom

50F is HOT, what are you worried about? There's a 90% chance of heavy rain Saturday on Long Island, but it's still warm (mid to upper 70's day, mid 60's night)

I checked the internet, bursera is native to NW Mexico and S Arizona, where it can get quite cold, definitely below freezing in the winter, but you've still got another good month of growing until it's sleepy time for them, so it might not be a bad idea to bring them inside the next 2 days so they won't drown, and then bring 'em back outside after the rains.

Commiphora I believe are African but not South African, so they also go dormant during cold weather and can probably be treated the same as the bursera.

My A. digitata is still outside, I'll bring it in when most of the leaves are yellow, and I just leave it in the corner of a spare room. They don't get going again until late May/ June. I had a bunch of 10 year-olds, in 2 pots, and I forgot about one of them and left in the garage with the other plants, and there were several nights at or around 32F, and they did not survive.

If you like caudiciforms, you should try Dioscorea elephantipes - they're cool looking, and if you have some patience, they germinate easily - I have one with a 4" caudex about 8 years from seed; this species, however, being from S Africa, is dormant in the summer. It is just now beginning to leaf out, and grows all winter and then drops it's leaves in the spring.

x

So, once your pachycaul and caudiciform succulents go dormant you aren't too concerned about light exposure (e.g., what you do with your baobab)? The reason I ask is that real estate under my MH lights is at a premium (I have a bunch of trop and subtrop bonsai to accommodate) so I was planning to place all my dormant succulents on stands next to an east facing floor to ceiling window, and under some skylights. I figured if they are dormant, they would wake up when they were supposed to under those conditions...make sense?

Where do you keep your Dioscorea during the winter (growing season)? Under lights?

Do you have any experience with Dorstenia Gypsophila? They are pretty cool looking, too, but I hear they are a bit tricky.

Tom

No leaves = no photosynthesis = no need for light. All plants' photosynthetic enzymes have optimal temperature ranges, so keeping summer growers in cool conditions also inhibits growth and the need for light. These plants have adapted to long periods of low moisture by shutting down completely during winter seasonal droughts. Think of your typical perennials or grass growing outside, they could be covered in snow all winter with no light whatsoever, but they're not growing so it doesn't matter.

Growth is stimulated when plant hormones are triggered by the appropriate environmental stimulus, be it temperature, moisture, or in many cases simply the day-length. Especially for flowering, which is vital to genetic viability of the species, plants from areas of seasonality have evolved to flower at the "right" time. Mesembs in the wild always flower at the same time every year, even if there hasn't been rain for months - it must be this way otherwise genetic diversity is diminished which is detrimental to species survival. The day-length is the determining factor here.

So total darkness for too long might not be a good thing if it is an important trigger for growth, and I sure as heck don't know exactly what the plants require but in reality it shouldn't be a problem - you can keep the plants dormant in the dark during the cold months, then in spring (around March) you can take the plants out of the dark and put them somewhere near a window where there is at least some light. When you start to notice signs of growth, then increased watering and more light are needed.

My baobab stays on the floor in the corner of the living room, no direct light. In May I bring it outside to get some fresh air and sun, but no water until leaf formation begins.

Keeping dormant succulents by an east window is an ideal place as long as the room is not heated, if it is you might confuse some plants into thinking they should grow, which is not necessarily a bad thing but you won't be able to duplicate outdoor sun and growth may not look good, not to mention that dormancy is a natural cycle and it might weaken the plant to not go to sleep. Also make sure to only water very lightly to prevent complete dessication, but not enough to make the plant want to grow. With experience you will learn to "read" your plants.

I keep my Dioscorea next to a West window. The leaves get untidy, it is a vine after all, not particularly attractive. I try to train the vines to grow around each other to keep the foliage tight, but I still end up needing to prune it. Because it is so leafy, anything other than HID lights would not be adequate, but I keep it in the greenhouse as long as possible. Last year I kept it there until mid-December, and brought it back out in early March.

I've never grown Dorstenia. The only plant I have from Somalia is a Pseudolithos migiurtinus, which is actually flowering now, I'll post pics tomorrow, tiny black stinky flowers with purple ruffles.

Sorry about the rambling.

x -

Thanks for the "rambling" - it's very helpful as this is my first winter with a number of these plants. I think I am comfortable with the location I have in mind for them, except that the temps may not be as cool as required. I am, however, planning to keep it a bit cooler in there this year, as I think in seasons past I have kept it too warm (I am trying to keep some tropical and subtropical bonsai happy in there, too).

By cool, I mean 50-55 at night, 60s during the day.

Should that, coupled with the lower light intensity, be enough to keep them dormant so that they are not encouraged to push leggy growth? I guess I will find out...

Thanks, again.

Tom

BTW, where do you "shop" for your caudiciform and pachycaul plants?

As long as temps don't go into the 70's you should be fine. Soil temps steady in the 60's seems to be the cutoff point for many plants to be in active growth. You can always shift around a plant or 2 that isn't cooperating. The learning experience never really ends.

Caudiciforms are only a small % of my collection, some I grew from seed, some I found at local garden centers, but mainly I find unusual species online.

I have had good experiences with:
Mesa Garden,
Miles To Go,
Rare Plant Research,
Grigsby,
Bob Smoley's

Check 'em out, I have no affiliation whatsoever with any of them, but they have nice selections and decent prices

x -

Thanks for the links. I have also used:

http://out-of-africa-plants.com/

http://gpdesert.com/

http://www.rare-succulents.com/

BTW, how is Ernesto treating you right now? Did you move any of your plants, or are you letting them "experience" it fully?

Tom

So far Ernesto has been surprisingly lame, a few gusts here and there but not much more than drizzle/ light rain - I'm sure it'll pick up later.

I brought my Dioscorea outside because now that it's starting to grow, it will do well with the rain. My Pachypodium namaquanum is under cover of the greenhouse since it is still dormant and not ready for active growth/ rain just yet.

Other than that, whatever has been outdoors still is outdoors - after the rains today and tomorrow, it's supposed to be dry and warm Mon to Thurs, so the plants are safe. If it would remain cool and damp, I would not let them sit out during the weekend's heavy rain.

Check out my post in the picture gallery for some photos of some plants.

x

Fabulous collection, x. Great camera, too.

How do you insert those pics?

Tom

Well, Ernesto made it all the way up to Western NY. I was drenched and freezing at my son's football game, so I figured my plants on the windowsill outside must feel the same way. So my kalanchoes and pineapple got moved inside for at least the weekend. Minimal flooding in the basement!

Hope everybody else is okay!
Britta

It would help if you had some basic HTML knowledge, but first you need to upload photos to a web server, most forum members seem to like using the Photobucket website.

Then you need to insert a link to the image into the body of the message like this:

img src="http://weblink of photo"

You must enclose the img src line within a ""

I can't type it because then the message will think I'm posting an image.

Do a search for image posting on the GardenWeb Forums and you'll get more info

Hi Britta -

I think that Ernesto is pretty much sparing eastern MA. By the end of the day today I was hoping for just a little rain...enough so I wouldn't have to water my bonsai collection. But, alas, we had none...

We'll see what tomorrow brings.

x - thx for the tip on pic posting. I have been thinking about an external storage site for my digital photos anyway...I will check out this one.

Tom

Test with this pic...

{{gwi:603181}}

Hey, this works!!! Cool.

Nice!