oops, I forgot the link!! Sorry 'bout that! OMG, when you're done drooling over Gary's brug seeds, go check out the plummie seed crosses by clicking on the tropical seeds link at the bottom of the page!! TDF!!! Here is a link that might be useful: Fresh brug seeds 2009

Pam, "My" recipe is just my adaptation of Al's 5-1-1 mix from the Container Forum. I've tried to tailor it to the kind of conditions I have here, as well as to my wish to largely avoid peat as much as possible. I even vary what I put in it and in what proportions depending on whether I'm expecting a year that is wet, dry or average. For example, if we were expecting an El Nino spring with heavy rainfall, I'd mix it so it drains better but if I was expecting a drier year, I'd add coir to help it hold moisture. When it is very hot and dry here, even 20-gallon and larger containers often need to be watered twice or three times daily in hot weather so my container plants suffer in a dry year if the mix drains too quickly. As far as the ProMix, that's a lot of peat. If I was going to grow regular plants in it, I'd add pine bark fines for sure. If I was growing acid-lovers like blueberries or azaleas, I'd still add pine fines, but less of them. I can only dream of growing anything here that likes acidity because my soil and water both test at about 8.2 to 8.3. I can modity the soil and lower its pH pretty easily but not the water, so I don't grow anything that prefers highly acidic conditions. Peat is so peculiar. When it is wet, it can hold moisture forever, and that's what I don't like about it. And, when peat gets really, really dry it is hard to rewet it. In climates where the weather can swing from dropping several inches of rain in a few hours to virtually no rain at all for weeks or even months, I feel like mixes that have a heavy peat component underperform compared to mixes that have only a moderate amount of peat, or no peat at all. I do agree that pine bark fines improve any mix heavy in peat, and would drastically improved most any mix you can buy. The heavier peat component in starter mixes is necessary for great drainage, but I don't like that heavier percentage of peat for growing plants beyond the starter stage. Pine bark mulch seems controversial in terms of being used in a veggie garden and I suppose it might not be helpful in every situation and every climate. However, I have used it in years when I couldn't find much hay to use as mulch, and I loved it. It looked wonderful, didn't wash away in heavy downpours and didn't cause me any problems. I read a magazine article once that I think was written by a Texas gardener who was coping with high clay content...as in almost pure clay. Defying the conventional wisdom, he routinely rototilled huge amounts of pine fines and pine mulch (the smaller pieces, not the gigantic ones) into his clay and had huge improvement in a pretty fast time frame. He didn't even state whether he added additional nitrogen to compensate for whatever nitrogen is depeleting as the bark decomposes, but he had enormous soil improvement and was very pleased. His article made me smile because I had started adding some pine mulch to my soil about 3 years before and hadn't noticed any problems and also had huge improvement. For me, the amazing thing is how fast the mulch rototilled into soil breaks down. If I rototill it into soil in January or February, it is largely gone by the following winter. Only a few pieces that were larger than average to begin with will remain a year later. I started adding the pine mulch because so much of my compost was disappearing every year (as the old saying goes, "heat eats compost") and it seemed like I just couldn't add enough to the red clay to fix it. And, I should add, that my red clay is flower pot clay---I believe I could wet it down and work with it and make flower pots---so it takes massive amounts of improvement to make it workable. I wouldn't necessarily add pine bark to fairly normal soil. Having never had fairly normal soil, though, I use lots of pine. This year I added vast amounts of pine fines and humus to one 8' x 4' raised bed that had amended clay that just was not well-amended enough for potatoes. I then immediately planted the potatoes. That was probably in late January or very early February. Those potato plants are growing incredibly well and are about to flower. By contrast, the four long rows of potato plants planted at the west end of the main garden are 1/3 their size and a lot way from flowering. Those were planted in an 8" deep trench and I covered the seed potatoes with a couple of inches of soil, and then continued to add soil as they grew until the trenches were filled in. It really isn't even fair to compare the performance of potatoes in a raised bed to those in grade-level beds, but it is such a striking difference that I cannot believe it. I do think heavy, heavy rain that filled those trenches with water for several days likely had a negative impact on the potatoes and slowed them down. Clearly I need to add a gazillion tons of pine bark fines and compost to the west end of the veggie garden before next season. It is a sandier-clayier loam than the rest of the veggie garden, but no matter how much compost I add to it, it still seems like it isn't as improved as the heavier clay. I usually grow either sweet potatoes or potatoes there, but then find the soil rock-hard at digging time. It probably is the least-improved soil in which I grow veggies because it started out in better shape than the clay, so I kind of ignored it and didn't amend it nearly as much. Now that the rest of the soil is so much better than the west end, I need to work on the west end a lot to bring it up to speed. Susan, I'm sorry you couldn't get the soccer goal. That would have been so perfect. I find so many interesting things at garage sales that can be used in the garden. I got a wooden ladder for $3 once, painted it a medium purple, and now grow purple hyacinth beans on it. It is just the coolest-looking thing when you see only hints of the purple ladder peeking out through all that bean foliage and flowers. Mommyrosalyn, You're welcome and be sure to let us know what you end up with and how they do for you. That's how we all learn from one another. I did forget to list one favorite (not hard to do when you have 100 or 200 favorites) that doesn't get a lot of attention but which does produce very well in our climate, and it is one called Fantastic. There's also an improved version of it called Super Fantastic. I actually prefer Fantastic, which I have to raise from seed myself because I usually don't see it in stores, but I see Super Fantastic in stores pretty often. When you are tomato shopping in chain stores or nursery chain stores watch for tomato plants from Chef Jeff. That particular line carries oodles of heirlooms. However, if you can shop at The Tomatoman's Daughter or at any of the festivals where Duck Creek Farms sells heirloom tomato plants (see link to Duck Creek Farms website below---their schedule of farmer's market and festivals is available there), then any variety they sell likely would please you. Dawn Here is a link that might be useful: Duck Creek Farms

Gary, Oh, I don't "think" you said enough to get yourself in trouble. I am sure the GW admin can distinguish between an innocent mention of one's livelihood versus blatant advertising. I am not sure how strongly the rule is enforced, but the rule as I understand it is that no commercial advertising is allowed in any of the forums. If you say something about your business that they think comes too close to advertising, I think they send you a "warning" by e-mail. Anyway, I'm glad you mentioned your operation. How else would someone like me down here in southern OK know you were up there in northern OK? I'm glad to know we have someone else up there (in addition to Lisa) growing heirlooms that we can refer people to when they're searching for plants or for information, answers to the hardest tomato questions, etc..... Maybe you cannot refer people here to your operation, but the rest of us can. There's a guy in Texas who sells heirloom tomatoes by mail but ONLY mails them within the state of Texas. (He has a real job and trying to mail them all over the country is too time-consuming for a part-timer.) I've always wished 'somebody' here in Oklahoma had that kind of business because lots of folks here want to try heirlooms and some people don't have the space to start seeds indoors or their job takes them out of town too much, etc. Finally, what would any of us do if a late freeze (or baseball-sized hail or a tornado or a wildfire) wiped out every plant we had in the ground in, let's say, early May? Would we be forced to grow only hybrids? Well, it wouldn't be the worst thing on earth, but it would be close. No. We'd send out an SOS and find someone in the state of Oklahoma who raises/sells heirlooms and we'd be hoping and praying we could find someone like that. So, you see, we NEEDED to know that you are there. Laspasturas, Welcome home to Oklahoma and also welcome to the Oklahoma forum. I'm glad you decided to stop lurking and start 'talking' to us. I read over your list and think most everything you have on it ought to grow just fine here. If there's one that might not produce well here, it likely would be German Red Strawberry since the heart types don't generally produce well in our endless and brutal summer heat. I grow indeterminates in containers and, in general, they perform quite well there. The larger the container, the better they perform. I grow indeterminates in containers of all sizes from cat litter buckets that seem slightly smaller than 5-gallon buckets (I've never measured to see how much the buckets hold but guess 4 to 5 gallons) to molasses feed tubs (about the size of a half-whiskey barrel, so I'm guessing 20 gallons or so?). To grow in containers here in OK, you have to pay careful attention to watering. In our hottest weather, and by that I'd say anything up to about 105 degrees, the containers may need to be watered twice a day. When the temp goes over 105, I drape old bedsheets over my containerize plants to shade them and then water them at meal times: breakfast, lunch and dinner. Luckily, that kind of heat usually only lasts a few days. Because Oklahoma's heat is so brutal, I try to strategically place my containers where the plants will receive 6 to 8 hours of direct sun and no more than that. I get better production from those plants than from containers placed to that they get sun for 8 to 10 to 12 hours a day. The plants also are happier if they are not lined up alongside a driveway, patio or south or west-facing wall that reflects a lot of heat up onto them. And, light-colored containers reflect heat away from the roots better than dark-colored containers do. AND, I spray-paint my kitty litter buckets a nice shade of green or blue (using Krylon Fusion paint designed specifically for plastics) so I don't look too much like a redneck gardener (not that there's anything wrong with being a redneck gardener). I don't think that your questions about how many tomatoes to grow for canning or dehydrating is a hijacking of the thread at all, but I am worried that people with a similar question in the future wouldn't find this thread if they do a GW search because the search feature here is a little squirrelly (with no dispect to our friends the squirrels). So, if it is OK with you, I'll start a separate thread about growing tomatoes for canning and drying and such in the hope that by putting the words canning and drying in the title, it will ensure future searches find that thread. I'll get busy on that thread after dinner. Dawn

When a company is not mentioned as a favorite of many people, that's sort of a clue. It used to be really good, I thought, and I used to order a lot from that company. Nowadays, I don't order nearly as much from them as I once did. I am afraid their history of bankruptcy and financial issues seen to have ruined what once was a great company. For what it is worth, I did really like them back before all their troubles developed and I am hoping they will turn things around and become the strong, reliable company they used to be, and that's why I still order a few things from them every year. I'd like to see them get back on track. However, and I need to make this very clear, lately when they ship they are slower than Christmas so I never order any seed now that I expect to grow now. I'll order in spring for fall planting, for example, or order seed in the fall for planting next winter or spring. Other people may have had better experiences with them these last few years than I have. Bush Early Girl, and about a gazillion other tomato varieties are available from other sources, including the one I linked below....and this particular company has shipped faster than most others in the summer when I have ordered from them at this time of the year. Plants from the local greenhouse should be fine, unless they have been very rootbound for too long. I try to buy plants early enough after they have hit the shelves that they are fresh and haven't had time to get rootbound yet. Please note: if she is selling plants right now that are leftovers from the recommended planting time for spring tomatoes (April 10-30), I certainly wouldn't buy them. If they have been in the same pots that long, they're too rootbound for you to expect them to do well if planted in July. If I was in NE OK, I'd look for plants from Duck Creek Farms (check their website, it tells you which farmer's markets or garden shows they're scheduled to sell at this year) or from The Tomatoman's Daughter in Jenks. I am pickier about summer transplants than spring transplants. Most any tomato plant you buy in spring will adjust to being transplanted and will thrive as long as it isn't sick with a fatal illness when you buy it. In summer, with the extreme heat and all, plants that are not in superb shape at transplant time can struggle. The summer planting conditions are just a lot more challenging than spring planting conditions. There's also a Rate & Review Vendors forum here at GW. You could go there and see how folks feel about the seed company you mentioned. Dawn Here is a link that might be useful: BEG at TGSC