Sue,

It strikes me that the girls and you have something in common: a fascination with butterflies.

That's a rare common interest -- I know only three people in a 50-mile radius besides myself (and my immediate family, who have no choice!) that I can talk butterflies with. Everyone else nods politely and oohs at an occasional picture or two.

Given the common interest, it seems like there's great potential for friendship between you and the girls. The trick is getting past the whole collection issue.

Jeff

If you can get past the trespassing with intent to disobey your wishes issue, Jeff has a good point.

It would be hard for me to do though. The example of respect for others isn't exactly modeled well by her mother and will be a big hurdle to overcome in the child. Not sure how much luck you would have.

To me it's not about collection, it's honor and respect. You honor others wishes and respect their rights when it comes to their property and personal space. Something this world doesn't seam to get anymore. Glad I'm old and won't have to deal with it for a long time. :-)

randy

Well, guys, the first time she was in my yard I had a friend over and we were trying to visit, but she did impress me by knowing the butterfly we were looking at was a swallowtail. She was also telling other information she knows about butterflies and insects. That day, though, a boy was trying to catch a bee in my yard as I was telling him not to, and she said that was mean. He pointed out that she had been throwing rocks at a butterfly. That was when she said she had a purpose for that, to mount the butterfly. Oh, dear! How are you going to mount a butterfly knocked down by a rock? Do I want to befriend that? I have a feeling she is going to steer clear of me from now on. We'll see what happens. I did tell her she can't be in the yard without permission. Maybe she will actually knock on the door and ask to watch the butterflies. Someone needs to get that girl a camera!

Sue

Sue,

My situation is totally different and I'm so glad I don't have to face what you did.

I live in a quiet neighbourhood where everyone has at least 1/2 acre, knows each other, shares the bounty of their gardens, and respects each other knowing there will be differences in opinions.

Having raised Monarchs for the last three years, the children know I love butterflies and take care of them. Last week the children found two caterpillars, one on the road and another in someone's driveway. They immediately brought them to me and now I have two Luna Moths in cocoons. :O) Many of them have released Monarchs at our home and they can't wait until another bunch is ready to fly off.

Last week I came home after work to find two girls just simply watching the butterflies in the gardens... Such a different happening from yours.

I remember when I was around 7 years old and my best friend collected butterflies. She showed me the butterflies in her display case, and I assumed she had found them all dead. But she explained about the butterfly net. I knew then that there was something distinctly unkind about that hobby.
I agree with the others. It is an opportunity to not only forge a friendship, but encourage the girls to appreciate the beauty of butterflies without harming them.
Do you have books you could show them? Share your experiences. Tell them how beautiful it is to see butterflies as they dance around a garden. Educate them - butterfly wings should not be touched, because then the butterfly cannot fly anymore.
Good luck. :)
~JoAnn

"butterfly wings should not be touched, because then the butterfly cannot fly anymore"

this rumor is false because in order to tag the butterflies I have to hold them by their wings per the DETAILED instructions from monarchwatch

rob- That "rumor" may be debatable, but I will stick to it. I'd rather leave the butterflies whole than risk damaging them for the sake of statistics.
The sentence you copied from my post is an example of a simple way to explain to children how delicate and fragile butterflies are.
~JoAnn

Butterflies are pollinators and part of the food chain, sticking them behind glass defeats their whole purpose. There are some people who do this out of necessity,like ladobe, and we all benefit from it. But I'm a little uncomfortable having it called a "hobby".
Misinformation leads to abuse.
There's more sport getting thae perfect shot with a camera.
-B
p.s. bring her inside and have her read what others say!!

Speaking of cameras, what if you gave her a cheap, even disosable camera and invited her over for a photography lesson so she can take pictures of the butterflies in your garden?

Or offer the same without the camera. Maybe add a scrapbooking lesson if thats your forte. Then you can also encourage her to bring any new pictures she takes to show you.

If she does it to have something to show off her interest the pictures would do the same and you would be a great person to show them off to.

I would approach her without other kids around though. She would be less likely to get snippy with you. Your story could be the next kid movie plot.

That day, though, a boy was trying to catch a bee in my yard as I was telling him not to, and she said that was mean. He pointed out that she had been throwing rocks at a butterfly. That was when she said she had a purpose for that, to mount the butterfly. Oh, dear! How are you going to mount a butterfly knocked down by a rock? Do I want to befriend that?

That's typical kid, though ... selective empathy and foolish plans.

(a ROCK! That's hilarious, if only because her chances of a hit are so small)

It seems to me that there are two separate issues here. The first is the trespassing. From what you said, it sounds like you don't mind her observing the butterflies on your property -- you just don't want her collecting them.

If so, then it might be worthwhile to go back to the mom and daughter and explain that you are very happy that her daughter has the same interest as you do, but you are attempting to create a habitat for butterflies, and that collecting defeats that purpose. The concept is similar to National Parks: "take nothing but pictures, leave nothing but footprints."

It ought to be fairly easy to have an agreement that your yard is open for viewing but off-limits to collecting or netting.

And as time goes on, you might be able to include her in any caterpillar-raising that you do.

The second, more difficult, issue is the general concept of collecting: how do you build a bridge to someone who kills the thing you love?

Just a couple of thoughts:

(1) Collecting is probably the typical gateway into butterfly-watching. Think of it like this: once the collection contains all of the local species, she's done collecting. What's left? Observing in nature.

In other words, over time, collecting can mature into watching. That was certainly my pathway into lep photography.

(2) Collectors have negligible impact on butterfly numbers. That's certainly true if her collecting method is throwing rocks! (LOL again...)

(3) There are a lot of cruel ways for butterflies to die in nature. I just took a couple of shots the other day of a skipper in the grip of a spider. I found the wings of a tiger swallowtail in my Zinnia bed. My car clobbered a Red-Spotted Purple today.

Dying in a killing jar, I'm sorry to say, is less painful than the average experience of butterflies.

In other words, collecting is not amazingly pernicious, even though I'm hoping that your neighbor will grow out of it. If you can recruit her to help with the garden -- free labor? -- then the chances of maturing are pretty good.

(4) You could mention photography to her, but I don't know that kids are up for it. The initial buy-in is high: camera, extra memory cards, batteries; and a lot of parents might not want to entrust that much money to hands so young. And, taking pics is harder than whomping with a net. The frustration factor might keep her out of photography.

Those are just thoughts based on what you've said. Clearly, you're closer to the situation on the ground, so take everything above with a bucket of NaCl.

Regards,
Jeff

Thanks for all the replies. I am feeling bad today that I showed so much anger to the girls. I don't know where they live, but have thought about driving around to see if I can find out. I haven't met the parents. I haven't really met the other girl who was with the one who collects butterflies. I would like to tell the girl I'm sorry for being so angry with her, but I want her to understand how important it is to me that I don't want the butterflies or the cats disturbed. The day it was revealed she had thrown a rock, their real reason for coming over that day was to look for caterpillars.

I don't (so far) raise cats inside, but try to provide food and nectar plants so they will flourish in my yard. I watch the cats grow, but now that the kids know to look at the rue, I'm not finding many these days, even though there had been lots of eggs. I don't know how long they keep them alive, as I don't see branches or leaves of the rue missing. Maybe it's just the birds eating them. I don't know.

I have a nephew who has autism, and I don't spend enough time with him. I also don't make time to visit with my adult neighbor friends who would like to do more, so I don't feel I have time to befriend the girl, as most of you think would be a good thing. I do let the first grader next door come over and pick grape and other small tomatoes when I'm in the garden. He also will come over when he sees me and ask all kinds of questions about the things that are growing and about critters. This is the one who wanted to catch the bee.

I did get a book out the day the boy next door brought over a tomato hornworm in a container. I don't remember if this girl was with him that day or not. That's the day I showed them my cats, and explained I wanted them left there. It really bothers me that the kids know my wishes, but the very next day, the cats were gone.

I do agree that it would be OK with me if they wanted to come look at the butterflies even if I'm not out, but at the time, I felt I could not trust them, since she out and out lied to me, saying they weren't going to catch them. I could tell from their body posture and the way they were holding the nets, they were on the hunt. After I chased them off, there was a monarch on the bush.

Of course, I may not see her around for awhile. She is probably afraid of me right now, or at least mad. I really need to make up with her so she doesn't hold a grudge. She could end up vandalizing my flowers.

lvtgrdn,
Thinking back on the advice I had given, I'm not so sure I would have done what I said. It would be nice to "save" her and turn her into one of us(LOL!) but as I look out into MY garden, I would have chased her butt out too! Maybe down the street...brandishing a hoe...
I never realized how territorial I am-I don't like other people in my garden, 'specially when I'm not there-and to mess with my stuff!! Oh watch out!!(poor DH, he had good intentions!)
Should I look for a shrink?!?
-B

B,
If you need to look for a shrink, I need to follow you! The butterfly bush is in the grass, and I'm not as territorial there. When my dh and I are about, and I see a welcome sign for a garden, I say, "No, I'm not buying you!" I did find a rock that says, "My Garden" on it that I bought.

I don't like people, including dh walking in my flower beds or my veggie garden. I am very pleased with how careful my neighbor boy is in staying on the path when he picks tomatoes. The truth is, I'd rather not let him in the garden, but since I let him do it last year, and he's asked about it, I can't go back. He knows not to go in there if I'm not out, though. It is a help, too, in keeping the grape tomatoes picked. He doesn't do it very many times in the season, either, but my comfort level has gone up, so maybe that's better than getting a shrink. LOL

Sue

If you REALLY don't want them messing with your plants, put a nice thin border of Urtica diabolica...er, dioica...around the edge of the yard where little tender arms just yearn to reach across.

They were told.....they didn't listen...but I flat out guarantee they'll remember!

You reacted out of passion in your natural way which is the same way I do it!! Yell first, think later! ha. However, the best thing to do with these girls at this point is to tell them why you reacted that way and TEACH them why you love butterflies. They have no clue what b-flies represent to nature. They may soak that knowledge up and get into the hobby themselves! Kids that age love learning stuff like that and can be nurturing to nature if they understand and appreciate. Good luck.

Oh Boy, in my humble opinion, the whole issue is about showing respect for another's property. I probably have a reputation for being the "Wicked Witch of the East" in my neighborhood. For fifteen years, I have endured every situation imaginable with outsiders and my garden, mainly from adults and some teenagers! My house is on a corner lot bordering two roads, one is a main throughway in my neighborhood. My raised beds border the entire length of my side yard along the busier road. After 33 years of living in this house, the county was funded a "surplus" of federal funds and built sidewalks up against my property line and down the entire street, two years ago. I had roses in those beds for fifteen years until this Spring. I am now in the process of replanting all the beds with butterfly nectar plants. People were stealing the roses, ripping them from the stems; some would stop their cars in the middle of the street, snatch a rose bud or two and jump back in. I had two elderly people stop one day; the man showing a lot of interest in my gardening techniques, so, I took him to the back yard to explain my composting methods. His wife, in the meantime, got out of their car and harvested an armload of roses as my husband was watching from the window. The sidewalks only increased the problems; people were acting like it wasn't any biggie to help themselves to the fruit of my labor. I've gotten so jaded with the human race, I had wanted to sell my house and move. I ripped out all the roses and now I'm planting "weeds", and raising butterflies. And, I love it! A footnote in reference to the collecting and mounting, my 45 year-old neighbor has asked me for one butterfly of each species that I am raising, so he can freeze and mount it for a collection! I will not put into print what I told him!
So, in my opinion, these girls are not really interested in the effort of raising the butterflies and, therefore, not worthy of your time. The little boy sounds like he has potential and I would continue teaching him.

I too, would have chewed out the girls with the nets. I can't stand to hurt things and would not want anybody catching butterflies in my yard. It was sneaky and disrespectful for her to come there after you told her not to catch them. I teach first grade and bring cats to school. I really stress that they must respect and not touch the butterflies or cats. One student brought me a cat and some leaves from the bush he found it on. I had explained to them that they must know what they eat to keep them.

Today, I got the girl's name and found out where she lives from my neighbor with the grandson who I let come over. She said the girl is pretty wild, and not a good influence on her grandson. She once tried to get him to do tricks on his bicycle in the street. He is supposed to stay away from her. (She's older, anyway.) My neighbor said I shouldn't go to her house to get on better terms with her, as she will do what she wants anyway, and may interpret it that I am letting her come over after all. She said to wait until I see her near here again.

Speaking of knowing what cats eat. I found out that her grandson had put another cat in with the tomato hornworm, and it ate part of the hornworm! Do any of you know if cats will eat each other? I was wondering if it was one of my Swallowtail cats that he put in with his. I guess he cried and cried, and his day said they'd let it go, and maybe it would grow new parts.

Mary, part of me can't see how people would have the nerve to pick your roses, but another part thinks many people are clods when it comes to the appreciation of gardening and respect for others' property, and is not surprised.

I'll look up the urica. :o) Living on a corner exposes you to the public. I hope they never put sidewalks in our yard! My in-laws had a fence they had to move because it was in the easement. Our back yard fence is in the easement, though, I think. I just know our shed goes out to it, and we can't build a new one because structures have to line up with the houses on either side of the lot. If our house burns down, I don't think we'll be allowed to rebuild.

I do hope I see the girl soon, as I do agree I should explain why I was so upset. I think what irks me the most, is that by her telling the friend she hoped I wasn't outside, that meant she was knowingly, deliberately doing something she knew I didn't want her to do.

Thanks for all the feedback,
Sue

I planted a Meyers Lemon tree in my front yard for the Giant Swallowtails, didn't really care if I got any lemons or not, that would just be a bonus. I have had the tree about 4 years and have not been able to harvest a single lemon though it has had at least 30 lemons each year (the first year it put on over 150 lemon buds which I pruned back to about 10)! The reason? Someone helps themself to my lemons just before they are ready to pick. If they would ask, I would probably let them have the lemons, provided I was the one to pick them. My tree has suffered some minor damage from whoever trying to get the lemons off the tree. Kinda makes me glad that the thorns are as big and hurtful as they are....Some people just don't respect others property at all. The rest of my citrus trees have all been planted in the fenced back yard.

Mechelle

I think catching butterflies to mount for collections is fine, I do it all the time. But not in someone's garden, especially if they asked them not to do it already. "they're just butterflies and just little girls" - I'd say those "just little girls" should learn to respect other people's property ... even if some of it is city property, the little girls don't know that.

Anyway I see why you're mad, I don't blame you...if anyone did as much as picked one of my tomatoes or caught a butterfly from my garden, I would make them never want to come near my garden again.

I think you'll get more mileage from befriending her rather than being enemies. Like someone else said, you both are interested in butterflies, so use that to your advantage. I liked the suggestion of possibly getting her interested in photographing them. She's just a kid, so you could be a positive influence on her at this stage in her life. Not that many kids, especially girls, are all that interested in bugs, so I don't think it should be squelched, just redirected.

Deanna

I haven't seen the girl since that day. I have decided I'm not going to seek her out, but when I see her, I'll let her know I don't hold grudges. I want her to know I'm not mad at her anymore, but I really was that day because I have created a habitat here for the butterflies, and it's important to me that when I've told someone about that, they should respect it. The first time I told her I didn't want the butterflies or cats caught, I didn't just say not to do it, I said why. I did have a book out that I showed the kids.

Mechelle, would it do any good to make a decorative sign saying for people to please not pick the lemons? Maybe some of us need to also have signs by our flowers for people to enjoy them, but to leave them there. I know someone who lives on an acreage that is now surrounded by regular sized lots. They have had to put a couple signs out because people were treating their yard like a park, and kids they didn't know would come play on their swing set. Oh, dear!

Sue

I have a very large dog(Irish Wolfhound)and would be willing to send a few of her chewed bones(cow femurs)to whoever would like them. Those and a large dog dish labeled "KILLER" might keep people out of the garden!!LOL!! Or maybe a fake sign saying the yard had been sprayed for some "pest" like sand fleas,jumping spiders, or scorpions.
It's a pitty poison ivy is so invasive, I dug some of that up for a friend of mine who was having trouble with her neighbor, that guy REALLY needed a shrink!
Oh, that poor little girl, bless her heart!!LOL!!
-B

brandymulviane, I had to laugh when I saw your closing endearment, "Bless her heart!". I'm not from the South as is my husband, and I talk pretty straight and off the cuff. But my husband's family would always end a critical assessment of someone with "Bless Her/His Heart!" I love it! And keep saying it, it would just seem phony if I did.
Mary

LOL Brandy and Mary,
My Dh and I drove to the Outer Banks of N.C. and different places between here and there. By the time we were about to come home, I was thinking and saying "YaAll" in my sentences. I don't remember hearing the heart bless thing. Maybe it wouldn't sound so phony, Mary, if you've heard it alot. It could rub off on you. :o)

I still don't want to be on bad terms with the girl, but I don't have time to be her friend, either.

Sue

Children learn what they are taught. My granddaughter has learned to respect and appreciate the butterflies in the garden. She does have a net and I "partner" with her in netting some of the butterflies just so she can see them "up close and personal" and then we release them. She has also been involved in raising them from egg to caterpillar to chrysalis to butterfly, and I think that is where the appreciation for them arises.

Maybe if you show the girls some eggs, caterpillars, chrysalis's, etc., they will appreciate the butterflies more. It has certainly enhanced Kenna's love of butterflies, and she doesn't have any desire to damage them now.

Susan