I forgot to mention that I keep them outside, in the shade. I also wash my hands well with antibacterial soap and sometimes, I wear sterile gloves.

I just put everybody in to their own rearing container. The rearing container is a clear plastic cup about the size of a dixie cup. Then I take a coffee filter and lay it across the top and put a rubber band around the cup holding it in place.

Just debugging here (no pun):

* Have you successfully used Oxine before? I looked it up; the chemical formula is ClO2, so that it will be more aggressive than ordinary chlorine bleach. It has chlorine with a higher oxidation number than bleach, NaClO.

* Any chance that they are overheating or dehydrating?

* Did you have 100% fatalities with both the found eggs and the ordered eggs?

Jeff

ms minnamouse;
You would not see OE spores at this point. OE is eaten by the larva from the egg shell or leaf. The spores then travel to the midgut where enzymes break open the spore walls (this is quite dramatic in electron microscope pictures). The parasite is then "active" and enters the intestinal wall and travels to the hypoderm. The hypoderm, simillar to our hypodermis, and is under the dermis and epidermis. Here it multiplies. If the spore load was heavy on the eggs to begin with, the babies will die.

Two things, always sterilize enclosures between groups. Besides OE, which is a type of fungi, there are lots of things that kill caterpillars, including bacteria, viruses, and protozoa. Second, I would contact the company you purchased your cats from and discuss what is happening with them. If they are reputable, they should have good records for the animals they are shipping. They should have daily records and good management practices to prevent disease in the first place.

The International Butterfly Breeders Association has courses on diseases on-line (which I took) and helps its members deal with disease. They have lots of interesting articles to look at if you want to check out their web site.

Good Luck,
Elisabeth

Jeff:
Yes, I've used it before with success.
No, I know they're not overheating and I don't see how they would be dehydrating if I make sure they have fleshy, non-dried out leaves.
100% fatalities with found and ordered eggs? I don't understand the question since I have some still alive.

Elisabeth:
I use clean containers. I don't sterilize them unless I re-use them, which is very rarely.
I actually got the caterpillars for just the cost of shipping so I don't want to complain to this person. But if it was a purchase, I definably would.
While I am a student, I don't have the $ to join their association and also to take those courses. Would you happen to know of any good free sources for information on bacterial, viral and other disease information? Something that includes info on diagnosing and treatment would be great!

Thanks for the help you guys!

I wasn't recommending you take the courses necessarily. Just pointing out that good breeders have standards. We have to be careful where we get our stuff from wild or otherwise or we can have problems. Monarchs have three (is that right Larry?) distinct populations with different or no migratory histories. Those in Florida do not migrate and have the highest levels of OE. Unknowledgeable breeders can cause problems by using this stock. Anyhow, lurk around IBBAs site for disease info, also Monarchparasite.org. Both those sites have very good disease information. I don't know of anyone who will help you for free other than the posters here. Amanda Lawrence at Mississippi State University conducts a bug pathology lab I believe but they charge you. You may be able to contact her for some free info. Check out this part of the IBBA web site.

http://www.butterflybreeders.org/public/health/disease_prevention_MSU.html

I don't think it is anything you are doing. It sounds more like you have a disease of some type in the batch. Start over with clean materials and eggs from a known source. As hobbiests, most of us never need to sterilize eggs. Only breeders and researchers need to do that. They have to ensure clean stock as they breed thousands of insects in close quarters. If you have plenty of healthy milkweed outside that freezes to the ground each year, you should be fine. Either let a momma come to you or order eggs from a known reputable source. Keep in mind that later in the summer OE levels do go up. If you can catch mom, you can test her to see what her levels are as well. This can give you a clue as to what is up. Other than clean cage conditions, the thing to watch out for are tachinid flies. They will lay eggs either on the caterpillar or on the leaves you feed to the caterpillar. So, wash or rinse the leaves well. Viruses get transmitted this way too. Again, being hobbiests most of us do not have too many problems with this, just occasionally. Oh, also wash your hands if you have been digging in the dirt. This is how bacterial diseases get transmitted. I have a bad habit of weeding and then handling caterpillars. It just seems to go togther. But Bt, that nice organic pesticide used on tomatoes, is isolated from soils.

Good luck,
Elisabeth

My best guess is that there is something on your milkweed, a pathogen, that is killing your monarch cats. Has there been aerial spraying for gypsy moth eradication in your area? I'm not sure if the Btk bacteria used against gypsy moths is harmful to monarch cats-it might be. I feel badly that the monarch cats you are caring for have such a high rate of infection. Unless you have the time and inclination to pursue a study of the pathogens that are killing your monarchs, I would be inclined to simply stop hand-rearing this year. So far, this summer, I have raised and released two monarchs, both of them large, vigorous, and appearing to be healthy. So far, the milkweed in our yard, three varieties, all appear to be healthy as well, so we have an abundant food supply. I feel lucky, and I realize that next summer might be a different story.

There hasn't been any spraying and I don't use pesticides anywhere near my butterfly garden.

The only milkweed in the area is in my butterfly garden. That's where the monarchs are laying. That's also what I've been using to feed the hand reared cats.

The conclusion that I've come to is that it must be the Oxine after all. When I said that I've used it before, I've used it but under a different brand name and from a different supplier. They're both the same chemical.

I wonder if this one had preservatives or something else funny with it. After all this... I don't really want to use it for my original intent of purchase- disinfecting my parrots' cages and toys.

I'm sticking w/ bleach. I've never had a problem w/ it before.

I am new to this board. This may sound like heresy, but why not just leave them alone out in nature? Some will live and some will be eaten by wasps, but at least you will not be responsible. I did try rearing cats once in the winter to make sure they didn't freeze, and I decided not to do it any more. I just plant lots of larval plants and nectar plants and enjoy watching them outside.

Hi Amberroses;
Welcome to the board. The survival rate of a butterfly from egg to adult butterfly is estimated in studies to be anywhere from 20 percent to one percent. It is figured that in actuality it is probably one percent that makes it. So those of us who love butterflies like to increase those odds. It is also a wonderful way to get people involved in the natural world. As someone who gives lectures to adults and children on gardening and butterflies, it is so much easier to explain why we have to save native plants and places when we discuss raising butterflies. Once you get the hang of it, it really can be quite simple. I have spent my whole life studying biology and nothing gave me the "a-ha" moment about the earth-plant-bug-us connection as raising butterflies. Not even working for ten years at the EPA. So, I think it is important that people and children have the experience close up of seeing how plants and butterflies are connected.

Some species are harder than others. Some have long, long, larval cycles and I don't want to raise them either. Some, like the monarchs on my kitchen window are going like gang busters and will be done soon. So, as you will see in this board to each their own and I hope that your experience will not discourage you from looking around and maybe trying something else.

-Elisabeth