Hi and Congratulations!! We all can completely relate to the heart racing when we discover caterpillars

You can get some netting and put it over the pots. Or you can bring them in and put them into some kind of structure to keep them safe (I have a couple pavilions). You will probably need to find some more food for them too unless you have really good sized plants. When these guys get in their later instars, they eat a lot.

You will not kill them if you bring them in; all you need to do is clean the cage daily and make sure they have a steady food supply. You may also want to include a stick or twig on which they can pupate.

I'm putting in the link to tdogmom's blog. It talks about rearing monarchs, but it'll give you some idea of how to care for your caterpillars.

Also, in the FAQ section of this forum there are some basic instructions on rearing caterpillars.

Good luck and have fun!! It is very exciting. You will be so thrilled when your caterpillars pupate and then especially when they eclose, and you get to release them!

Here is a link that might be useful: Todogmom's blog

Thanks very much for the info and link, bernergrrl.

I carefully potted up the fennel plants. Staked them with branches so they were upright and cats have place to "hang" when they're ready.

Will make rabbit fence circle cage around pots with netting all around them today.

Rabbits or groundhogs got onto deck yesterday because basil and zinnia were nibbled so don't want to risk them finding fennel appetizing all of a sudden.

My sister told me out of 300 butterfly cats she bought for her science class only TWO made it through full process. Assume she had them in classroom. Hoping those delivered by mother nature do better than those delivered by UPS! Maybe there were too many in small container(s) and cats cannibalized each other as I read on Todogmom's blog. I put it in my favorites so I can use if for future reference.

I'm going to be optimistic about my little brood and buy more fennel seedlings today to pot up hoping I'll need it as they grow.

Thanks again for responding. I know it can be tedious dealing with newbies. :)

It is not tedious dealing with newbies! We love our newbies; besides, I'm still a big-time newbie. Everyone was once a newbie. Just this spring I lost my stuff because I thought I had Baltimore Checkerspot caterpillars--they turned out to be something else.

Is your netting fine and will it go over all of the plants? It needs to be fine enough so wasps can't get in there and carry away the cats.

Be careful with buying plants from nurseries--generally we try to stay away from doing that because many of the nurseries spray with insecticides, which also target caterpillars. Even organic places because they use Bt which harms caterpillars.

Can you find some Queen Anne's Lace out in the wild somewhere? It canoften be found in "waste places" and on roadsides.

In the FAQ there's a section on host plants and the dangers of buying food plants from the nurseries. You can also do a search for discussions about this issue. I did a quick search, and below is a link. I used "buying parsley" and a couple of very relevant threads came up.

You can paste this thread into your browser:
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/butterfly/msg0917424412936.html

I re-read your first post. The caterpillars were on purchased fennel? So, you're probably okay with that fennel. Just something to be aware of (the insecticide thing).

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread about buying caterpillar food

Welcome and congratulations newbie! I still consider myself a rookie; even though I've been doing monarchs for 2 years (this will be my third, if they ever show up!) and am relatively new to bsts. I remember the feeling well; I found my first two bst cats last year on my parsley, in September. I was freaking out, and dh just didn't get my excitement. Thank goodness for this forum; I too posted right away about how thrilled I was, and what I needed to do. We all need someone to share our excitement with (duh), and I don't think you'll find a nicer, knowledgable bunch anywhere on the internet.
I had luckily put my fennel & parsley in pots, this way I can just move the entire pot into my butterfly cage that's on my deck. If you're concerned with safety, you might consider getting a mesh hamper or two, something that you can put your plants in without worrying about the bunnies or chucks getting at them. I've seen flimsy ones in the dollar stores, slightly better one is discount stores (Christmas Tree Shop) and I'm sure Bed Bath & Beyond/Linens n Things has better. If I'm not mistaken, I've seen them in supermarkets too. I had recently started a thread (here) about a kids greenhouse that I spotted in the Toys R Us flyer. Unfortunately my TRU didn't have it, but I'm going to check another, just to give it a shot. If you do decide to go the mesh hamper way, just make sure you stick a few sticks/stakes in the pot, in case they decide to pupate on them. I tried that, but my 6 of my current cats decided they'd rather attach themselves to the screen, while 1 settled for the stake.
I bring my monarchs inside to raise only because my potted milkweed plants (5'+) are too tall for my butterfly cage, and I just don't have the time to expand it (the cage), yet.

Okay, I'm still a nervous wreck.

There are 5 cats left on fennel I put on deck. Staked up plants with little branches because they were new starts.

Put pots together on plastic bin top to keep plants watered.

Just put fine screen (all I had) under plants but over pots and plastic bin top so cats don't fall in water or onto pot soil.

They are between 2-3 and 4th instars.

The 4th instar cat had a 2-3 instar trapped at the very tip of a fennel stem. Thought it might be a problem so I tried getnly using 2 toothpicks to move the smaller one at farthest top. He/she didn't like that and I was afraid I'd hurt it. I cut the little piece of fennel smaller cat was on and moved it to another fennel plant. It's eating again so I hope it's okay.

Some predator ate couple that were on fennel in butterfly garden. Can't risk putting "deck cats" in there and losing them.

I might be able to harvest enough fennel to put in water filled cups to satisfy a couple cats to pupation but not sure.

I read that they must eat SAME host food they started with which I think means I have to keep them fed with fennel.

I have parsley but afraid to change their food source because of what I read.

IF WHAT I READ IS TRUE PLEASE LET ME KNOW SO I CAN FIND MORE FENNEL ASAP.

If not true I can give them parsley and/or try to find queen anne's lace plant at farm nursery.

Next BIG question is what they need for nectar if I'm lucky enough to get them through whole metamorphosis.

Nectar plants I sowed myself from seed are very limited. Only Zinnia are starting to bloom or blooming. Marigolds have buds.

Others I sowed critters have eaten and destroyed or put of hopeful bloom: all Cosmos, top 2 ft. of NE & NY Aster, centers of Globe Thistle (echinops ritro),Tithonia, etc.

FAQs nectar plants include things I bought from nurseries and are blooming:

Bee Balm - Red Monarda
Giant Hyssop - A. foeniculum 'Honey Bee Blue' not 'Blue Fortune as listed
Asclepias Incarnata 'Ice Ballet'

Bought plants in bud but either won't bloom in time butterlies from these cats or are fall bloomers here:

Joe Pye Weed

Eupatorium Rugosum 'Chocolate'

Morning Glory 'Heavenly Blue'

NY Ironweed

Buddleia davidii 'White Ball' (small) & 'Royal Red' (larger new plant) where one pannicle bloomed already and others are in bud

WHAT BLOOMING PLANTS CAN/SHOULD I GO OUT AND BUY TODAY SO THEY HAVE NATURAL NECTAR SOURCE?

I can supplement with homemade "butterfly nectar" listed in FAQs or read on some butterfly site if you think that's better than risking nursery purchased nectar plants.

I'm off to find either butterfly netting for original rabbit fence cage covered all sides with netting OR stand up mesh laundry container to make final resting place for this little "nursery"...so afraid I'm going to kill them with all this moving and food/nectar issues.

Thanks in advance. I know this isn't rocket science but they're tiny living things prone to predation and they become such beauty in the world I just have to try and give them the best chance at surviving to butterflies.

Don't concern yourself with nectar plants. Once the butterfly emerges from the chrysalid, it won't nectar for a while (up to 24 hours later, I believe). I always release mine after they start fluttering around my cage, after their wings have dried. You'll know when they're getting antsy; just release them. If it's nectar they're searching for, they'll find it, it more than likely won't happen in your garden anyway. A few of mine had hung around on the plant I put them on after eclosing, but most of them fluttered far far away ;)

Some might not even eclose this year; there is a possibility that they'll overwinter. Don't panic if your cat pupates and doesn't eclose after 10 days or so, and don't assume that because it's a month later that it's dead. Don't worry about that yet either; you'll deal with it if it happens and we'll be here to talk you thru it, LOL.

As for needing more food. Your best bet would be to try local nurseries. I think I purchased my fennel at Plochs in Clifton, but don't hold me to that! I'm kind of brain dead.

If you're going to take fennel cuttings, your best bet would be to use those green floral thingies (hahaha; technical enough for you?!?!?!). If you don't have any or can't get any, you can always use a cup, a salt/pepper shaker, bud vase, which you can cover with a piece of tulle or even a piece of pantyhose, and attach it to the cup with a rubberband or elastic hairband. You also could use some cheap dollar store containers by simply cutting a tiny hole in the lid, just enough for the stem.

This is what I used for my first monarchs (ignore the red arrow; that's my teeny tiny cat). It's a bud vase with a piece of pantyhose and an elastic hairband to keep it in place. Not very sturdy, but did the job.
{{gwi:507343}}

Tulle. I used to get mine at the Dollar Tree dollar store, but they no longer sell it. I then 'stocked up' when I hit a dollar store on vacation of all places, in LBI, last year. I'm sure any craft store should have it, probably in the wedding section.
{{gwi:507344}}

Newbie,

First, I have raised BSTs for over 2 decades and have dealt with the feeding issues so I'm definitely an "oldie". I have furnished quite a few classrooms with BSTs. I have switched BSTs from one food source to another when I ran out of the first food WITHOUT any problems. This happens to them in the wild. They are very adaptable to food switches. You can feed them parsley if you don't have fennel. Right now mine are eating dill and fennel interchangeably. I have more dill than fennel.

I have even gone to the grocery store to purchase dill or parsley for feeding when I was totally out of food--it's better than starvation! Farmers' Markets are my first choice for food. Lots of times you will find plants available from the herb vendors. Dill is maturing right now and possibly may be available.

If, as a last resort you have to go to the grocery store to purchase food for your cats, clean the plants very thoroughly with water and dry with paper towels. Wrap the stem ends in damp paper towels and saran wrap and store in plastic baggies in the fridge.

I find the BSTs nectaring on zinnias, marigolds, pentas, buddleia, milkweed, hyssop, and coneflowers to name a few.

I use old sheer curtains to make covers for containers that I raise my cats in. You can also purchase the sheer fabric very cheaply at Wal Mart. I was using Bridal veil netting, but tiny larvae can escape. My set up can be a number of things from a plastic storage container--either a cookie box from Sam's to a purchased Sterlite container lined with newspaper. For the host plants, a small container such as a butter dish or deli container for salads with holes poked in the top for the plant stems. Add host plants and cats, and cover with sheer curtain fabric. Use a piece of skinny elastic to hold the fabric in place so the cats can't escape.

Keeping the container clean and the food fresh are probably the two most important things you can do for the cats. I clean out at least once a day when cats are small, and twice a day when they get larger. Add some sticks to the water container as the cats get in the later instars, such as skewers for shish-ka-bob. They will pupate on the sticks. Some people put up a paper towel wall on one side of the container for the BSTs to pupate. If you use a mesh container, they may choose to pupate on the mesh. This gives them a good surface to hold on to when they eclose. And, finally, don't keep too many cats in one container.

HTHs,

Sandy

I've also fed BST cats fennel, parsley, and dill interchangably too.

Well, just made a fresh cup of coffee and thought I'd update everyone on my babies.

Ended up buying fine mesh pop-up laundry hamper. Washed it with just hard spray of water since I didn't want to use any chemicals to wash it. Don't laugh...I was concerned about chemical residue from hamper manufacturing.

Put a large plant saucer in bottom for stability and to hold water while cats still feeding on original potted fennel plants.

Moved pots carefully into mesh hamper. Put fine screen all around planter tops so cats can't fall into water or soil. Tightened top mesh closure as much as possible and tucked piece of fine screen under tie holder over little remaining top opening.

They're as snug as a bug in a rug...look that way to me at least.

I love the vision of a little container with a piece of stocking over it...LOL. I also have some tulle circles left over from my father's 80th birthday favors last year.
I'm not a stranger to A.C. Moore which is our local crafts store. Handy places to find things.

I have 5 cats in the enclosure. It that's too many please let me know and I'll make up a second one. Think 2-3 in each enclosure is okay? I could get smaller fine mesh pop-up thingies and keep all five separate.

Needless to say, most people who hear about this "worm thing" as they call it think I've gone off the deep end!

Glad to know about BST cats being able to eat fennel, parsley and dill. I've got fennel and parsley but my sown dill is Lilliputian instead of "Mammoth" at this point. Since they seem to be surviving on fennel I bought I'm hoping I have enough fennel and parsley from same little annual farm nursery. Could toxicity from food show up at any time or would it effect them sooner rather than later...or it's anyone's guess?

I think I still have some sheer curtains from when I first moved into my condo until the blinds were made. I could use that around other containers I have with holes if need be.

Well, the only thing I need to know now is how many cats you all think it's wise to keep in one enclosure.

I don't mind at all making one for each if that's what the consensus is.

I can't thank all of you enough who've been so generous with your experience, information, advice and ideas.

This means so much to me not only because they're helpless little creatures of potential but because I put in the Butterfly Garden for my late Mom who loved butterflies and for my Dad to hopefully see some as he so lovingly remembers "his girl" whenever he sees one.

All this gardening/butterfly attracting has turned out to be a lot more work with more trial and error than I'm comfortable with but how lucky was I to have butterfly caterpillars delivered to me?

Thanks again. What a day. I'll just have a couple more peeks at the kids with a flashlight through the sliding glass doors!

PS...What's the coldest night temperature the cats can take outside? Tonight's forecast is mid-high 60's. Let me know if I should put something breathable over the enclosure if they need to be kept warmer than 60s.

Those cats don't know how they good they've got it!! You don't have too many in your container. Basically when you can't keep up with the food and frass, you know you've got too many. About a half dozen is a good number for a container that is equivalent to about a gallon size. Right now my pop-up hamper has quite a few swallowtails as they are still small. As they get larger, I'll put them in other containers. Actually when they are tiny, sometimes I leave them out on the kitchen counter over a newspaper to catch the frass. But, as they get closer to pupating, they have a tendency to roam. That's when you find their chrysalides all over the house if you don't contain them. : ) Also, temps can get down in the 50s and the cats will be O.K.

I think it's great that you are doing this for your dad. So many people associate butterflies with departed loved ones. One of the owners of a nursery in our town told me a story about Monarchs. She had lost her son in a horrible accident. One day at the nursery, her granddaughter and a man were talking about butterflies. Her granddaughter told the man she had never seen a Monarch. All of a sudden, she and the customer were surrounded by Monarchs. They even landed on the little girl. Then, as quickly as they had come, they left. Debbie (the owner and Grandmother) was so touched by the Monarchs' appearance. She felt it was a gift from God.

I'm sure your dad is going to love your garden!!

The number of cats per enclosure depends on the size of the enclosure and how much food you have for them. I had a bumper crop of BST cats all at one time, 38 that survived! and I had about 10 in each enclosure with tons of food for them. The bigger cats will cannabilize the smaller ones, especially if there isn't enough food, so it is best to keep similar sized cats together.

They will also eat rue, Queen Anne's Lace and carrot tops (in addition to the fennel, dill and parsley). I have found that they will eat the QAL only as a last resort! This year's cats weren't too thrilled with the carrots either, last years were all over it...go figure.

I have made enclosures out of the large animal cracker containers from Sams. I cut out holes in each side and silicone screen over the edges (the silicone is waterproof and makes it easy when it is time to clean the cage). Be sure to clean your enclosures after the cats have pupated, monarchs especially are prone to viruses and disease.

Best of luck to you!

Mechelle

Babies are eating and growing nicely. Was moving a fennel branch close to one cat that was at the end of his branch and got to see the osteoperum come out. I think I'll just let them solve moving from one branch to another on their own.

Had a scare earlier this evening.

Spotted a green worm/caterpillar on one fennel frond. Assumed it was same kind of green inchworm I found in garden earlier this year since I was pretty sure I didn't see a single photo of BST cats starting out green.

Just in case I checked web again for BST life stages.

Once I assured myself it was an inchworm it met its demise. I know some people will say I shouldn't have done that but I did since I couldn't nail down what it would become.

Having a large number of brown beetles in the area. They're destroying Nicotiana flowers on same deck as BST cats. They're all over Aegeratum flowers and Nicotiana in butterfly garden also. Even found them in Roses past couple days in addition to Japanese Beetles.

From what I read over the past 2 hours these beetles come from slugs and not green worms so the two are not connected. I go on "slug slime patrol" in the morning to see if any got past the Bug-Geta I put down to try and keep slugs from destroying plants any more than they already have.

Do brown beetles (closest I can come to ID is Junebug although it's July!) pose threat to BST cats?

Anyway, think the BST cats are safe? Was the egg from which the green worm hatched probably already on fennel before I put it in enclosure? There were some white spots on it but wasn't sure if they were BST eggs so didn't want to destroy or clean them off. Have to get a much better magnifying glass to see if "white spots" are smooth or fuzzy as I think smooth most likely a cat and fuzzy something else I don't want near the cats.

Guess I'm asking a lot of unanswerable questions without providing photos but don't even own a camera much less know how to use even the most "automatic" ones out there.

Guess this is why clean container enclosure supplied with "food vases" and cleaned out every day is better than the pop-up laundry hamper set-up I went with. I'll have to ponder this and decide if I need to make a change.

I don't know how the green inchworm got onto the fennel or when. I'm going to have to keep a close eye out for anything other than the BST cats in the enclosure.

My four babies are doing fine, I think.

All in 5th instar now but varying sizes still.

Saw one shed old "skin" yesterday...shaking little hind end back and forth to get free. Miracle.

Need advice on my largest cat- "Bad Boy" doesn't like to be approached. He needs more fresh fennel as he doesn't want less than bright green fronds left on plant and won't eat them. He's munching down one particular stem with vigor. Everytime I try to move fennel stem/fronds near him so he can eat fresher fennel, which is what he seems to want, his natural defensive orange "antlers" come flying out.

Is this kind of like dealing with a human baby in that you just have to do what's best for them and allow them their objections?

I'm going to have to move all 4 of them as I see I won't be able to keep them safe when they move around before pupating. Set-up I made has too many places they can get lost and/or hurt.

Read you use soft paint brush to move them. Afraid of hurting them by picking them up as they hold onto host plant with a LOT of tenacity and don't want to pull on them.

I was successful in cutting off piece of fennel one was on and letting him/her move to new frond by cutting piece it was on smaller and smaller and then it just attached to fresh new stem.

Going out to check on "Bad Boy" as I want to give him as much food as he wants/needs before pupation but he doesn't like being bothered. He could just be resting but he may be eating stem out of desperation for fresher fennel fronds.

Have to come up with better enclosure arrangements today.

After reading many posts, web sites and blogs on raising caterpillars I see people hold cats but I'm so afraid of hurting them and doing it properly.

Going to have to find a way to rearrange all 4 cats today but particularly "Bad Boy" because he's 4mm long already.

I chuckled when I read your post. Bad Boy seems to have a "bad" disposition! I use the same technic of cutting the pieces of old fennel quite small so they'll transfer to the new fennel. Sometimes I just stick the whole piece on the new food. When the old stuff dries out, they naturally move to more appetizing stems.

Sounds like your babies are getting close to pupating. When they purge, you'll know they're ready. If you put some sticks or skewers in the container, they'll choose to pupate on those objects.

Great going!

Sandy

Grandma Sandy, he wasn't being a bad boy this time he just wanted fresh fennel!

I'm like an enabling mother making excuses for her little "Peck's Bad Boy"....LOL.

I ran outside when I saw him start moving around until he was at the top of a stick. Couldn't be sure he still wasn't hungry so put that fresh fennel next to him and he started chowing down again. Don't want him to go into pupation without all the nutrition he wants/needs.

Cut & washed fresh fennel from same batch he's been eating. Made hole in tall salad container top and inserted stick and fresh fennel fronds into container with water. Rigged up paper towels under him (yes, he gave me frass as soon as I moved him) and clean plant saucer also covered in paper towel. I need to be able to see when he has his last "flush" so to speak so I know he's ready to pupate.

I'd feel much better if they were all in tall clear containers so I know it's clean, no chance of them falling onto mesh screen or into any water under pots of fennel.

Gotta get washed up and run out and find tall clear containers so I can put each one of them into they're own before they pupate.

This is why I don't have a "pet" except all the outside wild birds I feed. Now that I've taken in these little cats they're survival depends on providing for their needs and then letting nature take its course.

This is like the wild birds. When there's a whole flock of one species I don't know exactly how many there are so I wouldn't know if one were missing. When there's just a pair, like original Red Bellied Woodpeckers (Big Boy and Missus), I've watched them have their own son and this year he's got his own little one who's hounding him to be fed suet. I "know" them and have a real fondness for them.

Sorry...rambling again. I sleep a few hours at night and then check the babies. I'd guessed they're getting close to pupation and know it's got to be clean, safe environment for them.

Once I know each of them is in a safe environment I'll calm down and won't feel the need to make sure they're alright so often.

Thanks for supporting this over protective cat mama!

Leslie

I've only had these 4 cats for 8 days and I'm exhausted already...LOL.

They finished the original fennel plants on which eggs were laid. Had to start feeding them washed fennel from Butterfly Garden from same purchased 6 pack.

As I replaced their old fronds with new ones from garden eventually each one stopped eating and stayed still. I gave them smallest tender fronds first then whatever was still on plants.

I thought, wow, they're all getting ready to pupate at the same time although they're different sizes?

After sitting on folding chair watching them for almost an hour and a half I decided to try the parsley from garden. Washed it well as more places for crawly things to hide.

Lo and behold they just didn't like the larger, maybe tougher fennel fronds. Don't laugh! It took them a few minutes to figure out the curly parsley was food and how to eat it but they returned to feeding.

Watched them for another while. Finally one "took the cure" and flushed himself out.

My plan for pupation was to get them onto one of 2 sticks in clean cups (choice is allowed) in existing enclosure. Once they'd formed chrysalis would move cup/stick into gallon plastic jars I bought where I'd cut out 2 sides and was going to cover with bridal netting I also bought. They'd be safe and sound until they were ready to eclose.

Well, don't you know the one ready to pupate has been wandering all over for the past 4 hours or so. With pop-up hamper standing upright he kept climbing to top and hanging on top webbing. That would be very nice for him/her but then I'd have to cut a hole in the side to feed and clean the others until they pupated!

Luckily, my niece works in theaters and has thought through and rigged up more things than Carters has little liver pills. She suggested we turn pop-up hamper on its side and let the little bugger pupate on new "top" if that's what's gonna be and I'd still have access through top which is now on the horizontal end.

I washed shallow sterlite container I already had that just fit into hamper so bottom would be sturdy enough to hold other 3 cat containers (cups covered with pantyhose material) with stick and food inserted standing up. I figured they'd "flush" and attach to the stick in their cup. Then I'd carefully take out the stick, clean it below them and place it in clean cut and into individual pupating nursery.

Well, if you're still reading this I have a concern.

You've warned me they like to wander quite a bit before finding a place to pupate. Is over 4 hours too long or do they take their own sweet time and each one is different?

The wandering one who already "flushed" is wandering around the enclosure climbing up and down the paper towels on the other 3 cat containers, crawling over & under them and then back down to the paper towel bottom of the sterlite lining the mesh hamper.

There are 2 sticks for him/her to choose. One stick is propped on the mesh if he/she wants to get to top to pupate.

Do they eventually take whatever's available or do they need help finding the sticks? Should I extend paper towels right up to mesh sides so he/she can climb to top mesh if that's what will set his wings aflutter? They haven't been able to climb on glossy finish sterlite plastic so I think I need to give them a paper towel "bridge" to get to the mesh so they can climb as high as they can go to pupate.

Don't know if I'm making sense at this point. Since I only have 4 of them I can't afford to let any of them struggle and/or die trying to find the right place to pupate. Can't afford it for them or for me!

TIA if you know from your own experience what else, if anything, I can do to facilitate this transition to pupation.

I'll be checking them all night with a flashlight through the sliding glass doors again!

LOL newbie.
They'll wander around and they'll pupate when they're ready. I put quite a few twigs & stakes in my potted plants, and out of the 7 that I had, only one pupated on a stake. The other 5 pupated on the top of the cage and one on the side. The 1 that pupated last September pupated on the top of the cage, as did my 1st cat I had this year. That one wandered for probably 24 hours, back & forth, up & down, I didn't know what the heck she was doing. Everytime I checked on her, she was on the opposite side of the cage. I stopped watching; I just couldn't take the anxiety anymore. She finally wrapped herself up just fine.
I realize I'm not experienced enough to tell you what's going on, but I think I can assure you that there's no need to worry. These guys are alot more laid back when it comes to doing what they're supposed to do. Monarchs seem set in their ways and on a time table, where the BST's attitude is "whatever dude"...

"Whatever dude..." is a very appropriate description of BSTs. Once they pupate, they take their own sweet time eclosing. Some will eclose in about 10 days, and others will go into diapause for a year or so.

When you get up tomorrow, chances are your cat will have attached itself somewhere. Then it could take up to 24 hours for it to change into a chrysalis. Very rarely will they do it when they are being watched! Get some sleep!!!!

G'mom Sandy

Around 10PM I couldn't find the wanderer looking for place to pupate. Found him under paper towels covering bottom of sterlite container for twice daily cleaning out frass. The bigger they get the bigger the frass...LOL.

Didn't want him getting squished or stuck under there so had him climb on stick and set him up close to side of mesh enclosure with 3 sticks and paper towels to either choose for pupation or as route to mesh for pupation. Was afraid he'd pupate on dirty paper towel and didn't think that would be good germ wise going into a chrysalis.

I sat outside, flashlight in one hand and coffee in the other, with the wanderer until just before midnight. He had his 3 sticks and paper towel to find a place to pupate.

Bad Boy was perched for about 2 hours up on stick in his food container and I was watching for "big flush" thinking he'd begin to pupate. By the time I came inside he'd moved back onto parsley.

Just checked enclosure little before 5 AM and all 4 are visible which is a relief not having to carefully look for them under paper towels.

The wanderer stopped going up and down same inch and a half of stick and is still for the moment toward the top. He's toying with me...next time I look he'll be MIA...LOL.

If any of these cats go into diapause I'm going to end up back in menopause! Guess this is what new grandmothers go through when they thought they'd finished with baby worries and it starts all over with grandchildren.

I'm sleeping on couch in my father's family room so I can keep check on them through sliding glass doors until they're all pupated.

Going to get newspaper, make some more coffee and tend to other things for a few hours. I'll check them when I pass by while doing what needs to be done.

I better cook a nice dinner for my father tonight so he stops yelling at me to "let nature take its course"...just couldn't turn my back on these little ones "delivered" to me by nature.

Thanks for the support and patience with my obsessivness about these little creatures. I'm steeling myself in case some/all don't survive but being optimistic.

HELP!

Out of 4 cats one is safely in chrysalis on highest part of stick.

2 cats settled on sticks but at BOTTOM of sticks.

One of these 2 had his tush above bottom of enclosure and is suspended from stick in his chrysalis.

The second one never got high enough on stick to get his tush ABOVE bottom of enclosure and he wasn't forming good "C" shape on stick. He had one silk harness at upper abdomen but fell off stick before I could see pupal covering over him.

I assumed he was going to die lying on paper towels at bottom of enclosure but when I checked him less than an hour later HE'D FORMED CHRYSALIS RIGHT THERE ON BOTTOM OF ENCLOSURE.

While searching to see what to do in this situation I found a school butterfly site that says the butterfly can NOT spread its wings upon emergence from chrysalis UNLESS suspended from something, e.g., lying on enclosure floor.

I can undertand the seeming logic of that statement but want to know in advance what to expect and/or do if that happens? I'm just sick over this little one lying on bottom of enclosure.

Their suggestion, which seems dangerous to attempt, is to pick up chrysalis and attach it @ abdomen level to piece of paper or cardboard with HOT GLUE GUN.

Are they nuts or is attachment of chrysalis lying on surface instead of suspended from something possible? A hot glue gun seems rather dangerous for the chrysalis but I don't have firsthand knowledge.

PLEASE share your long experience and tell me what to do for this poor little guy.

If he won't be able to successfully emerge from chrysalis for lack of space to spread his wings is he doomed at that stage? Is it accepted practice, if any is even possible, to take remedial action while still chrysalis stage or at emergence in this situation?

If no remedial action is recommended or possible for chrysalis NOT suspended as it should be for proper emergence do I take a wait and see approach?

Maybe little guy was weak and will naturally die in chrysalis but I don't know how to be sure if that happens. Don't want to euthanize viable chrysalis but don't want to jeopardize sanitary conditions for other chrysalis if it dies on bottom of enclosure.

The 4th cat wandered longer and farther than any of the other 3. He finally decided he didn't like any of 3 sticks provided and has settled on mesh in corner of enclosure which is fine with me if he's able to successfully attach to mesh and pupate normally. I tried for about 2 hours to entice him onto the safety of a clean stick but he wasn't having it.

I'm feeling pretty guilty because the enclosure got a little jostled when I was looking for this 4th cat since it disappeared so many times underneath sterlite containter and I didn't want him to attach to mesh on bottom where he was sitting for a long while. I'm trying to tell myself that my little one in chrysalis lying on bottom of enclosure already appeared to be in trouble because it didn't seem right that his little tush was still touching the bottom of enclosure when he attached to stick. I was hoping it would be lifted up when he formed "C" before going into chrysalis.

PLEASE TELL ME HOW TO PROCEED WITH MY LITTLE GUY IN CHRYSALIS LYING ON BOTTOM OF ENCLOSURE.

He's on clean paper towels lining bottom of enclosure. I replaced all paper towels after 4th and last cat "flushed" so there wouldn't be any frass material in there while they were pupating and then in chrysalis.

What makes this even worse for me is I think it's the one I went and named "Bad Boy" so I feel a special attachment to him/her. Know this is supposed to be "scientific" endeavor to help nature along but it's hard not to become attached to the little guys when there are only 4 in your care.

Thank you in advance for any guidance you can provide.

I will take your years of experience as my guide and do what's best for the chrysalis lying on enclosure bottom.

I'm upset but I have to do what's best for these little guys...not what will just make me feel better.

Can you cut away the towel he is on away from the rest of the towel. If so, you could just then take the bit of towel he is on and attach it to a stick, just make sure he is hanging the right way. If he doesn't hang right, he may not eclose correctly. I lost a butterfly when I had a cat pupate on the wrong thing--a weak dill stem, and I tried to tie the stem to a stick but had the pupa the wrong way.

You can glue the towel piece back to your stick or you could take a twist tie and attach it, just be sure you tuck in the ends really well.

Ladobe here put his pupaes in the furrows of corrugated board; he posted about it somewhere and even gave a handy picture to help us visualize. I will try to find it.

All is not doomed, and these things happen! Something will get figured out, and you will have a beautiful butterfly! Hugs!

Ok, below is the link. Scroll down the thread to Larry's message and very helpful pics.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ladobe's post

Bernergrrl, you're the best!

Thank you for caring about my little guy.

The last one is in process of pupating on mesh side of enclosure so I'm going to let him finish and dry for 24+ hours before I attempt to move the little "downed one" to a better place for him to eclose.

The link and suggestions really help.

No wonder that gorgeous little baby you're holding in the photo gallery could light up a whole state with that smile and dancing eyes! Being held by someone who's sensitive, caring and loves nature really does make a difference. :)

I'll let you know how I make out in a couple days after my last little guy finishes pupation and has time to dry out.

I've got to be careful not to jostle the enclosure so another one doesn't fall. This is one of those times I wish I wasn't such a klutz!

Give that little beauty you're holding in the photo a flutterby hug for me.

Newbie,

I was thinking about you this morning and wondering if your cats had pupated. I'm glad to see they have gone through this process. Jostling won't hurt them as they are blown by the wind in the natural setting.

BG has given you good advice. Of course it would be Bad Boy that decided to pupate in the wrong place! I have used a little Tacky glue to attach chrysalides to paper towels or newsprint and then taped the piece to the walls of the container. I have a long-termer taped to the siding of my house right now! It probably won't eclose until next spring, but I want to make sure it can get free when it does eclose.

I feel like a bad mom as I had over 40 cats in a hamper on my patio. The top covering was not the best--it was a sheer with an elastic band around it. There were gaps because the hamper was one of those pop-up types. About 2/3s of the cats got out while I was mowing and working around the house on Wednesday. I have 16 that made it to chrysalides. The ones that escaped were big and fat and ready to pupate. I think a Mockingbird had them for lunch as I can't find them anywhere. It was very upsetting. I am usually so careful about securing the containers so that the BFs can't wander off. I've got to figure out a better way to close up the hamper. I have run out of containers as the others are filled with Pipevines and Monarchs. All I can say is I guess I made that Mockingbird happy. He had been scolding me because I had taken in all the cats off the dill!

Isn't BG's little girl beautiful? And BG is also. She is good about helping everyone on the forum.

Take care,

Sandy

Oh Sandy and Newbie, You are making me blush! This is the cycle of education--you all helped me, now I can help out others in my very limited way (don't have a huge range of experience to pull from).

Newbie, Hope your guy is all snug in his bed. Sandy, I like the tape idea--so simple! Does the tape stick to the mesh sides?

BG

If tape doesn't work, try a safety pin. That should work with the mesh. : )

Sandy

I HAVE 3 NEW BLACK SWALLOWTAIL BUTTERFLIES!

I've been keeping a breathable cover on top of mesh enclosure to keep out sun during couple hours they were exposed and have left it on overnight when any chance of rain forecast.

I didn't see any signs of them being "ready" last night but checked them on a whim while doing gardening things.

As soon as I started to take the cover off I immediately saw 2 struggling out of their chrysalis. What a thrill!

They were fine on their own, thank you very much, and are drying/fluttering wings.

My little "downed one" fell again but when I gently tried to move him for signs of life he was wriggling in the chyrsalis. I sat with him until the first signs of breaking of chrysalis. He was upside down so I just nudged him over gently and out he came. I put a stick next to him and he scampered right up it onto the mesh. He's also drying/fluttering his wings right now and looks to be none the worse for wear considering he had 2 falls. This one must have my coordination...or lack thereof.

First 2 are definitely male but haven't been able to see upper wings yet on my previously little "downed one" so I can see how much blue is there. He's my little miracle baby. :)

The 4th chrysalis was the last cat to pupate and he's the only brown out of the bunch since he decided to attach to the mesh right in the corner near the plastic. He's a little behind the others but will keep a watch on him.

Just as I was contemplating their impending release the skies opened up in a huge downpour. I thought, "Oh no, what if I have to keep them in enclosure past their comfort zone if it keeps raining?"...luckily I had the presence of mind to search for release info and it was right there in the FAQs.

Hopefully it will stop raining by the time the 6 hours given in FAQs for span between eclosure and release.

QUESTION: If it's still raining after 6 hours from eclosure should I still release them?

I'm inclined to think not but will take your experience/advice and go with that.

This has been one of the most touching experiences of my life. I was sitting outside on the deck with them keeping one eye on them and looking at all the different birds eating, bathing and playing; squirrels eating and chasing each other; Cabbage Whites flitting around flowers and even saw my first Yellow Swallotail nectaring.

Had my laptop and was playing them uplifting music for inspiration which they might have sensed through air currents..."You Raise Me Up" by Josh Groban. So call me crazy...I like to think what good we put out into the universe finds a place where it's needed or appreciated. I try to keep my cynicism under control that way.

All I could think was this has got to be a moment of grace in nature.

I'm glad I only had 4 this first time. It's been so personal and I had time to concentrate on each one. I can't even imagine having dozens or hundreds...LOL.

I just need a little more hand-holding regarding release and weather conditions.

Thank you all so much for your help and support.

Leslie

Congrats Leslie! All your hard work paid off ;)
They'll be fine if you release them. Most of mine were so anxious to get the heck out of the cage; I was more worried about them hurting themselves by fluttering around so crazily. I'd definitely hold off until the rain at least stops, but just think, they do this in the wild, eclose in the rain, and they know what they need to do to protect themselves (well, I hope so). They'll probably just hang themselves in a tree, like most of mine did, rain or not.
I actually had 2 eclose 2 weeks ago, in the rain. Both didn't make it! One had crumbled wings (I euthanized in the freezer-it wasn't as traumatic as I thought it would be) and the other couldn't fly and was dead the next morning. So I've had 3 BST casualties (1 cat just died on the parsley) this year, and it nearly killed me, but I just look at it as the learning experience. Now I have 6 monarch's that should be ready to pupate this week.

Thanks, Tracey!

It's pouring so hard with thunder and lightning that permeable cover got soaked through and was starting to leak on them. I ran out, yanked off first cover and put plastic utility tarp over them as fast as I could.

They're just hanging out giving wings a little flutter to stay limber. I got soaked but at least they're not getting pummeled with the downpour.

I have to lay on the floor up against the sliding glass doors with a flashlight searching for them since I have folded lawn chair on either side of mesh enclosure to hold up tarp. I'm being told "They're exactly where they were the last time you looked."...LOL.

Almost every plant is flattened it's raining so hard. At least the Swamp Milkweed is getting its preferred moisture even though it's leaves are turned every which way.

The forum FAQs say:

"After the wings are inflated they need to dry and harden. This usually takes about 6 hours.
A butterfly or moth may be able to fly before then, but will be unable to go far because the wings will still be too heavy or soft. Before taking flight, butterflies and moths will eject the excess fluid in their bodies (called meconium). Place paper toweling under them if they are above an area you don't want to get stained."

I'm the hovering/overcautious type (if you hadn't already noticed...LOL) so I think I'll let them hang out where they are under plastic cover at least until it isn't raining. That might coincide with their 6 hour drying out period and meconium flush.

I'll play it by ear. If they start fluttering about frantically at around 6 hours then I guess they want out but for now seems they're content to hang in the relative dry under their tarp.

As you can see, the reason I took them in and cared for them was to give them a better chance than they might have out in natural surroundings. I've got my father, who's finally excited since seeing them eclose and expand their wings, charging his camera as I'm clueless with photography. I will never forget this experience.

I'm not at all purely "scientific" about these little charges that were brought to me which could be annoying to those who are or have a better balanced outlook when raising them. I've learned so much about butterflies, though, through this process and it's facinating. Some people's eyes glaze over when I start talking about it but some are also facinated. If you don't travel in "butterfly circles" people can be amazed.

One thing I know for sure...once they're all released I'm going home to sleep in my own bed...LOL.

Leslie,

I've been looking for your post. Congratulations! I've kept BFs up to 24 hours before if it's raining. If they have room to flap their wings, they'll be O.K.

Your little brown chrysalid may decide to overwinter. It will be interesting to see what happens.

You have been a great BF Mom, and it's been fun to read and respond to your postings.

Butterfly Nana (Sandy)

Oh, Grandma Sandy, it's SO exciting!

It stopped raining but they're still in enclosure.

I'm glad I knew it was okay to wait to release them after getting your message.

When I took off tarp around 7 PM for full check they were still hanging pretty peacefully from top but there was a little water in the bottom container of enclosure so I took it out to dry.

One walked out on mesh so I put my hand out to see if he was ready to fly and he walked right onto my hand. He tried by fluttering his wings and lifted off for a few seconds but came back down on my hand. It was really storming out there and the humidity may not have allowed their wings to dry sufficiently yet. Going to give them whatever time they need.

The other 2 who've eclosed didn't try to come out but just gave a little "hello flutter" with my reaching in there to dry things out and put down fresh paper towels so I can see any meconium although I'm not sure it'll be as "pronounced" as the flush before pupating...LOL.

They don't seem to be in any distress as they're not flitting around frantically but I worry about their wings not being ready by morning with all the humidity outside. I suppose if their wings are still too heavy they'll just come back to my hand so I shouldn't think I'm in control of this whole process.

Maybe I have to let nature take its course and back off interfering at this point (other than tarp to keep them dry overnight) because the reality is that when I release them tomorrow morning they're going to be on their own.

You'll appreciate this...I think "Bad Boy" is female. From what I could see on upper side of wings after eclosing there was more blue than on the first 2 who eclosed. Like 3 troublesome sisters I already have wasn't enough...LOL.

How butterflies can touch people...a few who were indifferent while they were cats are all excited now after seeing or hearing they've eclosed. No wonder my mother loved them so. I'm not ashamed to say I've felt her with me through this whole thing and I'll feel her beside me when I release them.

Well, Grandma Sandy, I'll keep you posted on our little ones when we see what happens tomorrow.

Have a good night. :)

Released 3 eclosed BSTs little while ago.

My "bad boy" actually was a female and the blue was beautiful. She sat on my hand for quite a while and recoiled her legs when I put her near a few flowers figuring she'd like a little snack for the road. She fluttered off my hand and landed on leaves of Green Envy zinnia. She warmed herself in the sun for a short time and then flew off.

One male flew the coop when my back was turned tending to little miss "bad boy".

Other male didn't want anything to do with sitting on my hand but fluttered out of enclosure onto my knee as I was trying to balance myself with the old "roomatiz"...LOL. Then he just flew straight out and up over the trees into his new life.

The strangest coincidence happened while the release was taking place. Three hummingbirds came up around deck to try out the scarlet sage and then went to BF garden to try monarda. I have to investigate what kind they were since there was no ruby throat which is what we get most of here but they may have been juveniles. I'm deducing they were all of a sudden attracted to the plants I intentionally planted for them on deck and in BF garden because the severe rain flattened so many plants where they might ordinarily nectar.

Strange feeling releasing them...happy with a tinge of missing them already.

Then there's the brown chrysalis still left in corner of the enclosure who, unless he's planning to stay the winter as Grandma Sandy thinks, should eclose in the next few days to week.

Well, going to collect a LOT of "Y" sticks to stake up all the plants flattened by the heavy rain and wind.

Gotta go check the milkweed for eggs or cats first. Maybe sometime I'll beat those nasty longlegged spiders who live on them and find a Monarch cat or egg.

Thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your support, knowledge, generosity and patience with a newbie who rambles like a bad romance novelist at times...LOL.

I'm a hopeless romantic, so your posts have spoken to me. I hope you find those Monarch eggs/cats.

Sandy

Congratulations on your releases! I was so happy to see that everything worked out, and you were rewarded for all of your painstaking and loving attention to the butterflies!

Leslie,

I just had the best time reading this post (and re-reading the earlier postings), had some actual out loud laughs and a few tears. You sound like the kind of person I would like to count as a personal friend, too bad you are in the NE and I am in Texas. Thanks for sharing your experiences with your BST babies with us.

I thought I had raised all the BSTs I was going to get this year and lo and behold, I found about 20 caterpillars on my dying fennel Sunday. I almost never see the butterflies come to visit, about the only time I see them is when I release them. Today, I had 5 (yes, FIVE!) BSTs come visit my yard. I was so excited! I had a bountiful abundance of butterflies (monarchs, gulf fritillaries, sulphurs and the BST) visit today, about 20 in all! Plant it and they will come.

Best of luck to you with future butterfly babies.

Mechelle

Thanks, Bernergrrl! It was so bittersweet releasing them especially my little miss "bad boy".

I got to provide the instructional link for "downed chrysalis" you gave me to another forum poster who had a BST whose girdle broke and was hanging by his little tush attachment.

"Pay It Forward" is a nice way to go through life.

I've still got the last chrysalis (brown) hanging in enclosure and I sure hope he doesn't go into diapause and overwinter. I'll be worried all winter about him out in the garage but I read it's better not to bring them in the house because higher temps could lead them to eclose when you've got nowhere to release them since it's winter in the NE!

You've been a doll just like your little one and I thank you.

Mechelle, it seems like the gulf coast and CA have bumper crops of butterflies of so many varieties. My father keeps telling me the same thing MCronin reminded us of this week...we think there are less butterflies at this time because we forget most activity in some parts of US takes place toward Fall. I hope so because I haven't seen a single Monarch yet this year. For me, except for one male Eastern Swallowtail, the BSTs are the only ones I've seen so far this year not counting the dozens of Cabbage Whites nectaring like there's no tomorrow. Once I spot a butterfly I follow him/her around the yard just to watch. Love it.

I used to travel to Texas a few times a year for business when I worked for a company that supplied industrial heat exchangers...don't ask...LOL. Annually attended Petro-Chem and Oil shows at AstroDome as booth vendor...what a pain. It was the 70s and a female in that world wasn't exactly run of the mill except standing on a rotating stage showing off some huge piece of equipment...and I don't have the "equipment" to stand on a rotating stage...LOL. I'll never forget my first time coming out the door of the plane onto the tarmac at the Houston airport and immediately being drenched in perspiration from the heat and humidity. Then you go inside an over airconditioned building and get chills. Once spent a "charming" day climbing all around machinery and hoses at bleach factory along ship channel. Not thinking before I went out there with sales rep I didn't wear (or have with me) older shoes so my heels were ruined by bleach leaking all over the place...LOL. It was a rough and tumble business back them but I learned a lot about those industries and there's not much I'm not curious about and happy to learn more.

Is it warm enough in your part of Texas for butterflies to eclose most/all year round? If not will your new BSTs go into diapause like they do up here in NE?

I learned about 15 years ago from a person raised in Amarillo that it gets very cold and snows up in that part of the state.

Well, you'll be a busy mama for a while with all those little ones. Think I'll go check the parsley again...ya never know...LOL.

Thanks for your kind comments. This is a warm forum and it's so nice to find a place in this world where people are welcoming, encouraging, supportive and have sense of wonder & lots of humor. Guess if you care about these little guys who turn into beautiful creatures of nature and take the trouble to raise them then that caring carries over into other parts of life for many people. Makes me glad and appreciative.

Butterflies take the naturally occurring "gloomy" out of a lot of pockets of people's lives.

Trust me...if I find anymore cats there'll be more long missives of my experiences. I just got to find me at least ONE Monarch egg or cat! I already have all the rearing supplies and plenty of Milkweed. :)

You would think with as warm of winters as we have that the butterflies wouldn't over winter, but they do. I still have about 5 BST chrysalids from over 2 years ago. I don't want to get rid of them until I am sure they will not emerge, so I hold onto them and wait. We normally do not get below about 28 degrees and only for a couple of hours. We really haven't had a winter in some time, although it did snow on Christmas day a few years ago, totally unheard of in Houston! It might snow once every 10-15 years! and about an inch or so at the most.

Hopefully, the monarchs will be wending their way to you soon, I am doing all I can to rear them safely and send them on their way.

Mechelle