Maybe you can get out of it by saying there are laws (there really are - USDA) against carrying caterillars and butterflies across state lines. I cannot think of a good way to get these through the airport checkins. What would be a good way to carry them (not being tossed about in a suitcase). etc. etc. etc.

I would not agree to give him caterpillars and if he insists, then send him elsewhere. How can you guarantee you will have enough stock to provide to him? There are so many challenges with raising caterpillars to butterflies and these people would not know how. There are always questions even if you were to give out a handout explaining how.

On the spur of a moment at a company picnic, I had caterpillars, chrysalises and an emerging Monarch. I had the kids attention and they made me keep opening up the cases to see the cats etc. I did not allow them to handle them. I had the chrysalis in a cooler and it did not emerge as fast, but then was too hard to time and they missed it coming out and the wind blew over the container and knocked it off its stem. I did catch it emerging and righted the container so the butterfly took hold and all was okay. BUT then it took so long to fly away. I ended up leaving it on a post out of the reach of the kids and they would check to see if it was still there. No one saw it flew away. So it didn't go 100% (this was my first attempt at something like this), but the kids enjoyed it. In fact one of them found a bug to take home (I felt sorry for it - think it was a cicada) and mom thought it was the ugliest thing around.

His intent may be noble, to have people experience things like that.....but it kind of reminds me of when I was a kid, seeing people win a goldfish at the county fair in a plastic bag. I knew that they were doomed. And I could never be part of such.

The most important point to convey to him...and others....is that caterpillars arern't pets....and to place them into the hands of random strangers who aren't knowledgeable about their needs, incapable of providing care, lacking the proper plants, etc, aside from taking them possible out of their range is a poor way to "educate" people, and cruel to the species....if he truly wants to educate people, than he can use some handouts about websites like "Journey North", the NWF backyard habitat program, etc.....inform them about not using pesticides....etc. And mabye have a couple of books to give as prizes for small trivia questions....these are things I have done at several presentations I have made to garden clubs, and the response has been very positive. Perhaps I need to re read your post, but this person does not seem in my mind qualified to make such a presentation, and he is either maive, or underinformed about this topic.

Anyone who raises caterpillars (other than commercially-that's another story) has an appreciation for the beauty and delicacy opf nature, and the need for solitude...Nature is not something to be taken home as a prize, it's something to be embraced and respected, through a million little decisions, about where our trash goes, to what kind of items we buy, and by default, what industries we are supporting. Perhaps I drift a bit off topic, but to the larger point, a kind but firm 'no', up front..is the right thing to say. Furthermore, some firm but kind redirection to some reading material props will make for a better presentation, as well as avoid yours or anyone else's caterpillars (including nature's) from being wrongly exploited. That will give people something of value to take home....and it's all free on the net!

I agree with everything stated above. I like the idea of bringing "the law" into it to get out of this situation. I think life cycle photographs to capture the group's attention, and informative handouts with "further reading" suggestions is the way to go. That way if they DO decide it's something they'd like to commit to, they have a decent amount of information to at least let them know what they're getting into first. I mean before reading about "host plants" I had NO idea that each species of caterpillar only would eat one type of plant.

Look at it this way... what good would it do to have a whole bunch of people wind up with dead caterpillars? They'd be discouraged and probably never make the attempt again. But to teach them first, and allow them to try it on their own once they're back home might allow them to have a successful go at it - which would in turn possibly encourage them to keep doing it year after year. :) Even if they decided not to hand raise the butterflies every summer, I bet they'd at least keep some host plants around.

I'm actually in the process of compiling a SMALL pamphlet (so as not to overwhelm new people). It's going to list a few easy to grow nectar plants, along with some host plants (briefly explaining what a host plant is) for some local butterflies, and a list of web sites on the back for more info. I'm going to print some out and ask if I can leave them, free for customers, at a couple of my favorite local nurseries. I don't see why they wouldn't allow it - I mean it costs them nothing and might even mean more plant sales for them, right? Haha. Maybe you could create something like this for your group?

Just a few suggestions. Good luck! Let us know how everything goes!

PS - Hey Paul. I had to giggle - I actually wound up with one of those "prize" goldfish when I was a small kid. It lived over 2 years in my little tank. He was a lucky one! ;)

bttfly9, I was hoping that that was the case, that state laws prohibit people from taking them across state lines. I wish I knew where these exact laws are located so I could show him. I'd also like to know the particulars of the laws. At first I was thrilled that someone wants me to give them information so he can pass it along to family members. He really seemed excited and I was hoping that his enthusiasm would be contagious, but the more I talked to him, it just seemed like he was getting more and more insistent on either having pupas or caterpillars. I hate not to give him any cats, but I also hate to have the cats die at the hands of people who don't know what they're doing. Of course, thinking along those lines, last year I didn't know what I was doing until I came here to the forum and asked questions on how to raise Monarch cats. I wonder if it would be a possibility that I might have pupas by the time of his presentation even though I didn't have them last year until about the end of August (and then it was only a few at that point). If I had pupas, I think I'd feel comfortable giving him those to give to people. I just kind of feel uneasy, though, about handing over 35-40 caterpillars to him (if I even would have that many by the time of this retreat). I wouldn't mind giving him one just so the people would be able to see a Monarch caterpillar in person, but I just don't quite think I could trust that many families to take care of their caterpillars until pupation and eclosing. I agree with you.

Paul, Yes, I think his intent is noble and that he really is excited about passing along the word about the Monarchs to others, but he's almost TOO enthusiastic. I kind of even briefly wondered if he would say that he has a good supply of milkweed to falsely reassure me just to convince me to give him some cats. He didn't mention before about having an abundant supply of pesticide-free food for the cats and now all of a sudden that came up in the conversation, that he'd be able to give lots of milkweed to the people for the cats. He could have a whole field of it somewhere for all I care, but if it's cut and given to the people to take home with them, it's not going to last long enough if they have young cats. I'm pretty sure the older ones would be okay with it. It's funny that you mention the goldfish at the county fair. I still hate to see that at a fair because I also feel that the fish are most likely doomed. One year I even saw that someone had thrown one away in the trash (it was in the bag yet). I just had to take it home because I can't stand for some living thing to just be thrown away like that. I don't think it lasted real long with us, but at least it had more of a chance than it would have being hauled off to the landfill.

I absolutely agree with what you said, and I think it's a good idea for me to explain those things to him. I will gather information for him to present to the people so they can become knowledgeable about the Monarch and then if they want to find their own somewhere and raise them, then that's up to them. I don't really like the idea of him giving out a caterpillar to each family. Mayabe not all of them would be so gung-ho on the idea of raising a caterpillar and who knows what would happen to it/them. This guy's heart is in the right place, but I'm afraid that you're right and that he doesn't know enought about the Monarchs that I could trust him to make a presentation that would make me feel comfortable enough to send a bunch of caterpillars with him. One more thing I want to mention is that I kind of doubt if these people have Internet access, but I can find out for sure.

ladyisz, I also like the idea of bringing the law into this and hopefully that will be enough to make him want to forget the idea of handing out caterpillars. I'm sure he wouldn't want to break the law. Since only a few of the people are coming from out of state, I can already predict though that he'll probably say that he'd just give the caterpillars to the people who live in PA. I've been working on the things that you've mentioned. I have some life cycle photographs, and I'm typing up information for him to hand out to everyone. Even though he was primarily doing it on the Monarchs, I'm going to include pictures of other butterflies and the corresponding cats and list their host plants. You and the others have very good ideas. He'll just have to accept my rules and if he doesn't like how I do things, then oh well. Good luck with your pamphlet; I think it's a great idea and I'm doing something similar for him to give to his audience. I'll make one copy of everything and then he can make copies to hand out because I think I'm already going above and beyond what most people (not people on here though) would probably do. It seems like most people don't go out of their way to do things, and people are so far out of touch with nature it's sad.
Thank you very much to all of you for confirming what I've been thinking. I hadn't been sure if I was being selfish not wanting to give him caterpillars to hand out, but I see that I'm not the only one who has thoughts that it wouldn't be a good idea to hand them out to people.

Cat,

Interesting that this topic has come up. I do teach a butterfly science class to teachers. I make it a very STRONG point about 'giving away' caterpillars and I think the teachers who leave my presentation have a very good understanding of the importance of the needs of these tiny little creatures. In fact, this year, the 2nd grade teachers who were in my class previously had ordered their science kits (once trained, they can obtain a butterfly kit each year) and were MOST concerned because I guess last year the secretaries received the larvae but didn't give them out until late-kept them over the weekend-so the teachers ended up with a lot of dead larvae.

Anyway, there is a gal I know, bless her heart, she is 'into' the preservation of the Western Monarch. She actually has gone into classrooms to make presentations about Monarchs. Okay, picture this. She talks about the Monarch butterflies and the importance of planting Milkweed. She has a little finger puppet (she borrowed one of mine the other day). She shows off a Milkweed plant. She shares some pictures. IF she has a caterpillar, she shows this off as well. I usually give her some Asclepias curassavica seeds to give out.

Now the problem is this: She often asks me for caterpillars. Why is this a problem? Out of the multitudes of larvae I've given to her (various instars, no less) she has had probably 99% of them die. WHAT?! Yes, this is true. I think only one has ever actually pupated and that one was just about to pupate which is probably why it survived. This gal just doesn't seem to be able to 'get' how to raise the caterpillars herself, yet she is out there making presentations.

Have I shared information with her? Yes, of course! She will call me with questions and I answer. I call her back when I think she may need additional info. I've provided written info. I repeat info over and over. But, for some reason, the 'stuff' doesn't seem to sink in. My husband said to me, "I don't think you should give her any more caterpillars." I then shared how the other day she called asking, "I dropped a chrysalis. What do I do?" and I said, "Can you explain what you mean by this?" but basically, the thing had died because it oozed green liquid. She didn't understand that this meant the butterfly was unable to complete its metamorphosis.

So, Cat. You ask your question. My personal opinion? Bring the USDA regulations about transfer of live insects. Direct the guy to the Monarch Lab's website where he can read and view pictures of the lifecycle of the butterfly as well as how to raise them. Info is also provided on making rearing containers and various Milkweeds. Educating the guy is more important than providing him with the actual insects.

Take it from someone who has been trying to help someone else whose heart is in the right place but just can't seem to 'get it.' It isn't worth YOUR heartache over the loss of the butterflies. I mean, I raise lots of the butterflies but at this point, I agree with my husband and I don't think I can provide my friend with any more caterpillars either. I think I am going to have her come in and take my butterfly science class and hope the info sinks in THEN...it is the best I can do!

Good luck.

Hmmm... Accidental monarch serial killers.

I don't think the lives of those caterpillars should be wasted for anyone's education. It sounds like they need to grow their own milkweed, and figure out how to raise their own monarchs.
Personally, I just let God take care of them on the milkweed outside. He's been doing it longer...

Oh my goodness, Sherry, I'd have been so frustrated with that gal that you're talking about! Yeah, it makes a person wonder sometimes if anything you're saying is getting through to people. It almost makes you want to say, "Knock knock, is anyone home in there?" ;-) Gosh, it does make you think that maybe she shouldn't even be doing the presentations in a way if she doesn't even know what she's doing herself. I kind of wonder what she tells the other people, if she's even telling them the right things.

I can tell the guy about certain websites, but like I said before, I kind of doubt if any of these people have Internet access, but I could be wrong. There are a lot of Amish and Mennonite in our area and both of those groups have different groups within them that have different beliefs. For example, Old Order Amish don't believe in having tractors with rubber tires; their tractors have metal wheels. They only ride in horse-drawn buggies. I'm not sure of their beliefs about electricity, but I'm pretty sure they don't have televisions, telephones, maybe hardly any modern conveniences. They for sure wouldn't have Internet access. New Order Amish will ride in cars as long as someone else is driving them; they seem to like to shop at Walmart. :) I don't think this guy is Amish or he probably wouldn't have even been talking to me on the phone. I'd say that he's Mennonite and I'm not familiar with their beliefs, but I know that they are also stricter than people of other religions but not as strict as the Amish, so there's a possibility that he might have Internet access. I don't know about the rest of his family members that are coming in from various areas. That being said, I don't think that they would be Amish if they're flying in on planes. I assume that they aren't having someone drive them here from places like California and Texas. lol

I will definitely do what you suggested and hope that he understands. I hate to disappoint the guy, but well, I don't want to be worrying about my cats either. Oh, another "red light" that makes me wonder if he'd do a thorough job of passing along information is the fact that he said he wants to keep it simple. Well, if I'd send all of the information with him that I'd want them to know in order to raise a caterpillar, I don't think that would be simple enough to suit him. I mean really, how can you explain in just a paragraph or two about Monarchs, let alone how to care for them?! I feel like he's asking the impossible. I hate for demands to be put on me, and in a way, I'm feeling that way. It's not the he's mean or rude, but I just get this underlying feeling of pressure or something, like if I don't give him caterpillars, it will ruin the presentation. Ugh! It almost makes me want to not answer the phone anymore, but I couldn't do that to a person, just leave him up in the air. Oh, and he said he was going to tell them all to bring a quart jar along to the retreat so each family would be able to take home a caterpillar with them! I wasn't real thrilled about that because there I did feel like he absolutely expects me to give him caterpillars. I just really thought it might just be me worrying for nothing and I didn't say anything. I think that he already sent out information to everyone about that. I guess that he's going to have a lot of disappointed people. Now that I'm thinking about this even more, why can't he go find some caterpillars somewhere and give those to the people if he's so insistent that they have some instead of wanting me to give him some from our garden here. He surely can recognize milkweed if he has some of his own like he said he has.

After hearing your story of what you have gone through with that person and having most of your caterpillars that you gave her die, that convinces me more than anything else not to give him any. No matter how disappointed he will be and no matter how many empty jars are waiting for caterpillars, some people are just going to have to be disappointed because I am not giving away any caterpillars. I guess he could tell that I wasn't too happy about the idea because he said something about buying them from me. I told him no, I don't sell caterpillars. Maybe I'm weird, but I'd feel like some madam pimping out some well, you know. Ha. Honestly, I'd feel like I'm exploiting the caterpillars. I just can't take money for them. He's not getting any anyway and thank you so much to you and the others for making me see for sure that giving him some would be a big mistake. I'd be heartbroken if he'd call me up later on and say something like, "I can't figure out what they did wrong; most of the people called me and said that their caterpillars died." Now, that would upset me and then some! Ha, knowing him, he'd probably ask for more! No way, Jose, none in the first place. Get your own. Ha. If I can't get him to see the light, then that's his problem and not mine. He ought to be glad that I'm taking all the time that I am to look up information for him and I've even started milkweed in cups for the people (not that a small milkweed plant would sustain a caterpillar). Even if they would have enough to feed them, so many other things could go wrong that I don't even want to have to worry about any of that. Thanks again.
Cathy

This thread brings up a lot of good points. Ladyisz, glad your goldfish made it! (I was secretly envious that I never had one, but I want on the be quite an aquarium guy later on...)

Tdog, I can't even IMAGINE you gave away your babies! Not me. Nope. I've been asked and always responded that they are best left undisturbed in the place where they started. I work too hard at this to throw their fate into the hands of the unprepared. As someone wrote above, let them learn enought o raise them successfuly....bet they'll feel differently. Funny, as time passes, the more I'm against the commercialization of nature. I am very controlling of my larvae and pupae....but the moment i get a BF, they are free. Free. Cat----good luck...and don't be intimidated, sayine "no" can be hard, but remember, if you say "yes" to him, you're very likely saying "no life" to your larvae.

Paul,

You know, it is funny that you say you can't imagine me giving away my babies! My hubby was like that as well. I told him that I'd prefer to give away some to those who I knew would be able to sustain and take good care of them...making sure they make it to adulthood. :) Recently, Bobbi, whom I do not even know personally, came to my classroom with her little boy, and we spoke about butterflies and whatnot. I was most concerned since I did not know her but she wanted a caterpillar or two. I did send her off with one little baby but she actually had several eggs on some Milkweed she'd purchased! She just didn't realize that she'd had the eggs until the morning she was coming to my classroom. She ended up with a lesson on Monarchs that I just KNOW was a good one that she will most definitely remember and take to heart. :)

The other gal I am speaking of? Now, her heart IS in the right place but like I said, she just doesn't seem to 'get it.' This is most worrisome to me. So, Cat, you are right. Who knows what she is saying when she is making her presentations. I do worry about this. I do know she has given out misinformation (she's shared some of it with me and I've had to correct her) and it seems like reminders just don't seem to sink in. (big sigh)

Education is key. Period.

I must share right now something that is exciting. I will be posting a separate thread soon. I am now a finalist in an Animal Planet/Discovery Channel contest and it is on...butterflies! That's right...I wrote about the plight of the West Coast Monarchs and the loss of their habitat due to all of the construction of homes in California...how children need to learn about the lifecycle of the butterfly and to start planting Milkweed to help provide the host plant to be able to sustain the Monarch. Now I am one of ten finalists!!!! I just got the phone call this morning.

So you see? Education...that's it! If we can just educate more people about Monarchs (and other butterflies, of course) then I think we can help to preserve these butterflies for future generations.

Woo hoo, Sherry!!! That is absolutely great news! Oh, I hope so much that you win because if you win, I know that the Monarchs will surely win. I think just being a top ten finalist is a great honor. So if you won, would you personally be on tv or would they take the information that you give them and use it to do a show on Monarchs? Either way, I think it's fantastic.
Yes, you are most certainly right about education, and I love the idea that all of your little kiddies at school will most likely grow up loving butterflies and helping them. :) Congratulations on that and on the Animal Planet/Discovery Channel honor!
Cathy

As for education, why don't you give or suggest him buy some butterfly weed seeds, give a picture presentation, and start them out doing it themselves. You do not have to 'supply' anything that you don't want to. Pictures say a thousand things. He can go to the library, if he does not have a computer, ask someone else (if he can't) to download detailed pictures of the metamorphasis process and take all of this along with the seeds to his family reunion. 'Sorta like teaching a guy how to fish instead of giving him fish every day'.

If they are truly interested, they will share the seeds and go forth and populate.

Tdogmom, congratulations on your finalist position. Keep us informed on your standing so that we can follow along with you!!!!!

Leubafr (Mary)

Mary, Thanks for your input. I already have plants for him that I started from seed that I had from plants here at my place. So I guess I might as well give them to him, but I see your point. I guess I am kind of going a little bit out of my way hunting up information for him, but I want to make sure that he passes along the correct facts. I already told him that I'd give him printed information and I made it clear right up front that he's going to have to make copies for everyone.

I forgot to ask you all about pupas. If I'd have pupas (big 'if') at the time of his retreat, can I assume that I shouldn't give him those either? With caterpillars, I'd worry about the people neglecting them and not feed them enough or that they'd not have enough to feed them in the first place. With pupas, I'd worry about the emerging butterfly and how it would fare. I know about when a butterfly is going to eclose and watch to make sure it can climb back up to dry its wings if it falls.

I just wish I hadn't allowed him to make me feel pressured into saying that I'd give him caterpillars. Now I'll feel like I'm going back on my word. I didn't outright promise them to him, but I did say that I would give him some if I had any. If only I were a good story teller, I'd just say that I don't have any cats yet. If he'd come here to our place to pick up the plants and printed materials, though, it would probably be hard for him to miss them. Today I told my daughter that I've decided not to give this guy any caterpillars and she was relieved. She's 21 and helped me take care of them last year. I honestly think that she likes them as much as I do.

Tdogmom - how awesome and congrats! Please keep us posted!!

Cathy - I agree with what most people have written here, education is key, moreso than the immediate and sometimes fleeting "wow" factor of having a living creature to take home. If the eggs/cats die many may think it's impossible and just give up. But those who ARE interested, even without the "wow" factor in front of them, will "go forth" and invest/educate themselves and figure it out. You have to be curious and patient, as with gardening, and as we all know unfortunately not everyone is a gardener! You can lead a horse to water...!

I would NOT feel badly at all about changing your mind about this. Say you've given it some thought and done a LOT of research (which you have), and here is the deal... etc. Give out seeds and a basic info sheet. If people don't plant the seeds, no harm done - and you tried!

I would also give out names of books as well as websites, in case people (like you say) may not have internet access. The internet can be pretty intimidating if you don't understand it!

Good luck and keep us posted,

Sandy