Thanks so much Marian for being here as well as all the other fine folks. I am haveing a hard time right now and it is solice for me to be here, chatting with all the fine folks here who have a good word, a thought or some surprise for me!

I don't want to get to into my problems, however I need to say that it is with Pam. Some of you know about this relationship of 3 months. Sorry to be sappy and endulgent but I feel like s**T. I have fallen somewhat for Pam and I am being played with, and ignored to the point where I want to call it quits, which is what I will do with unstated words, since, per her request, she is unavailable to me. (she live right across the street) I am hurting but I will get by... but all I can say is that all my life ~~> it doesnt pay to be a good guy. You gat trampled on, disrepected ... to top it all, they want the a**hole! \
I give up with women.

Thank you all from my heart for the support here, I need it right now.

It does pay to be the good guy! You just got to find the good girl you deserve! When something is not meant to be,even if you want it to be,it will not be! I dont know you or your situation,just that you sound like a friend of mine ,that felt all was lost because he couldnt have the girl he wanted! Well thank goodness they didnt work out,because had they worked out he wouldnt have the woman of his dreams right now! She was tired of the a**holes and just wanted a good guy,well they found eachother and are as happy as peas in a pod,planning a wedding! Just keep in mind everything happens for a reason,and your queen is waiting for you somewhere,dont give up! :)

Marian, I wholeheartedly agree. This is by far the best place around, and I for one feel blessed to have found it, and all the wonderful people on here. I have never in my life known a group so kind and generous, so loving and caring. I feel we are like family, and I treasure it!
((hugs))

Barry,hang in there the ladies that are worth caring about are just as afraid as you are,of reaching out,and getting there hearts broke,I know I was single for 10 years before I trusted again,just know we are here for you,and most of us know how it feels to be treated wrong,when you least expect it the right one will show up.
Bonnie

I will chime in as well, just LOVE the folks in here. Even though I have never met any of you, I feel as if I know you all so well. Like Barry, when we don't hear from him, we know he is sulking somewhere :) When we don't see Marion for a day or two, we know she is working. When kylie is missing, we know she is roaming on the "other" brug spots :) You know what I mean ? We just kind of know each other *great big smile*. Karyn, Gloria, Annette, Kristy, Mary, Daniella, Eloise, Carmen, Ria, Linda, Theresa, Mike, Barb, and Shawn (I know I forgot some, but I'm old :) ) It is a pleasure to talk and get to know you all. Thanks for being here !! Love this group. Edna

aaawwww!! I love you guys! I can't wait till I actually have stuff to give you all, too! thanks so much for the great start :D

by the way guys, edna sent me the vigna caracalla seeds inside the most adorable card ever. it was a birthday card with a duck on it, and inside she'd crossed out the happy birthday and written "he he, can you tell I'm out of cards?" I had the biggest laugh! XD she said she felt stupid but I thought it was the most adorable thing I'd ever seen.

every time I receive anything from you guys, I'm so totally warmed by the kindness and generosity that is so clearly evident in the time and effort you've taken to put together such a nice package, and obviously the contents therein, a living product of your love and expert care at home. I cannot tell you all how much I appreciate your advice and generosity, and I hope to someday contribute as much back :)

anyway, (gruff) I uh.. yeah you guys are pretty cool. *cough* yep.

lmao Ria. I got a cute card too, cute lil boy & girl w/a puppy standing on a rock cuz the tide came in. It's so cute, I think I may stick it in a frame in my bedroom bathroom..Iv'e got the ocean theme goin in there.

Barry..I wanted to address this in my last post..but those pesky lil creatures called children are so demanding, lol. Don't give up..theres a good woman out there for you..and sorry to say, but it doesn't sound like it's Pam. She's not good enough for ya, son. It's gonna be hard since she's right across the street..but just wait, think how she'll feel when she sees you found someone else and you keep bringin the new one home. Pam will be peekin out her window, kickin herself in her butt sayin.."damn what did I do?"
Yeah love sux, but your heart in time will heal, and another will take hold of your heart..and hopefully she'll be the one. DONT go meetin any chicks in bars!!! Keep yours eyes open at the grocery store..at the nursery..You'll be fine. Remember we are all here for you, and WE care about you!

LOL Ria. . .pretty cute.

I agree Marian, this place is really terrific! I'm here each morning and a little at nite, but I just don't always have time to post, or don't really have anything to contribute when the experts are on! It is like a family - and we share a common hobby.

Barry - keep your chin up. Like Daniella said - don't go to bars, go to the grocery store.

And for cryin'onacrutch - do NOT hang out in the canned food section with the guys - go to the fresh veggie section - ask a lady how to tell if an avacado is ripe. Look for the lady with the quart of milk, not the gallon. If she has a gallon, she probably has a family. Don't ask the lady that has lucky charms, or twinkies, or cookies. Odds are, she has family and children.

A single lady will probably even have a SMALL bag of lettuce, enough for a couple evenings of salads for one. Especially if she only has 1 of things. BIG sign. (grin)

THAT'S where you'll find the women, and no competition from other guys.

They're all staring at the canned chili, and the cling peaches.

Had a friend tell me - ya wanna find a guy? Hang out there, the canned food section. The guy with the yellow mustard, the cart filled with Chunky "Fully Loaded" soups with the black label. . .theyr'e definately single. (grin)

LOL. . .Ha!

Barry I can tell you right now that there is someone searching ever so hard to find you. Don't be too picky. Remember that it is what's inside the package that really matters. Sometimes beauty is only skin deep. Have you tried finding a real lady at church somewhere. There are usually a lot of single women hurting, just wanting someone in their lifes looking for the man of their dreams at church.

I will say it is a wonderful place to meet either a man or a woman. Since I don't know your age I can also tell you that the older you get the more women in the church are looking for an older man. There is probably 20 women to 1 man. Pretty good odds if your a man. (grin) If you find one in the church you know she's probably going to have a good heart and someone that takes relationships serious and wouldn't play with your heart strings.

I just have to be very honest with you Barry. Sometimes life just SUCKS. You do your very best and still get hurt. There has been many times I've asked why me Lord. Trust me, he knows what he's doing. We don't understand, but he knows all and sees all. When the time is right, Miss Wonderful will Waltz into your life.

Cheer up my friend and know that we all love you and we know your special. (wink)

Hugs Marian

Yes Edna I was "roaming" just a little bit...LOL
Marian I'm glad they made it...This is the best place with the best people...I'm not going to be around for a while.. My sister just found out she has cancer and has had to have some pretty radical surgery.. she is still in the hospital but as soon as she gets out I will be headed to Kansas for a while and she doesn't have a computer...I may not be around but I will be thinking about ya!!!
Karyn!!!! THANK YOU again!!! for all of the wonderful seed you have sent I just got another package this week. very exciting!!!!
Ya'll do ROCK!!! ALL OF YA!!!!!!
Kylie

eep! I hope the surgery goes well...

we'll miss you :) have a safe trip!

Ria

Thanks everyone for your comments, I especially like some of the advise about finding women at the grocery store. The trouble with this is that I have tried approaching women there, but never thought to check her groceries to cull out the single ones!

Maybe thats why I get ignored allot in the store! Perhaps I will use the tactics Dweeb mentioned, that was great! Problem here is that I am really bad at small talk, I just want to get to the point, but since this is generally not acceptable, I fumble with words and don't make a good impression, or I totally turn people off. I have never been good with people. Still I try, but at 57 the prospects are not great, and by the way I don't think there are many women out there that will take a sensitive guy with allot of feelings. You have to be strong and suppress your emotions or women think you are week. I personally am very emotional, I have come to accept it. Women dump me all the time because of it; but instead of developing a hard shell, I will continue as an expressive person. I won't sacrifice this best part of me that is probable why I am a musician, artist.

However, because of my highly charged emotional state, over this relationship, I ignored my feelings, went over across the street and told Pam it was over. I gave her back her things - don't think she saw that coming. What's got to be, has got to be; I wont be a worm anymore. Talk to me, even say uhgg!! once in a while, or go away! THERE.

Sorry if my ramblings are inappropriate for this forum, but I have become comfortable here, So... thank everyone who read this, hopefully meaningful bunch of words.

Ox

Kylie,heads up girl,if your sister is any thing like you she will be fine.It has a lot to do with a positive outlook,I won't go into a lot of detail,but I had some major problems with that illness,so far I am 12 years out I own a few less body parts but I am still here.You know how we are we will pray and just love you through it,if you need me to listen,you know where I am.hugs to you and your sister,Love Bonnie
sending you an email

Barry.. Once the sun starts shining and you can get out and get your hands dirty you will have a new and better attitude and I'm sure that LIFE will roll a little easier.. There is the right woman out there for you.. feelings and all. LOL but you can't force it...It will sneak up on ya when you least expect it.. Meanwhile you are stuck with us...;^)

Thanks Ria..
Kylie

Thanks Bonnie and Congrats to you on your health...She is 11mo older than I am and very much like me.. She has a great attitude and so far that down the road path for her is very promising.. everything so far has gone very well..We'll still take all the Prayers we can get.. LOL
A girl can never have to many Prayers...

Go to church. Lots of social stuff there. If I were single I would do the Yahoo singles thing. Quantity is good bound to be some quality in there. There is the one for you; look a lot deeper than the surface.

Maybe a M gardeners society might be a place to look. There are so ..... oops time to stop. I am way out numbered.

Jim

Kylie, your sister will be in my thoughts and prayers as
will you, that is so nice of you to be with her at this
time.
Karen

You guys are making me cry! You are all so wonderful,problems & all. Kylie, you and your sister will be in my prayers.We'll miss ya! Barry, it must be the Leo in us! I sound just like you. My son is a Leo too! We're more sensitive and care deeply ! Some great advice here, hang in there!

Theresa

Thanks Karen! My life is incredibly blessed...My husband allows me every opptunity not to just do what I need to but what ever I want...
Then there is the Blessing of my friends!! Thanks Ya'll

O Kylie, I am sorry you & your family are going through this. I know what it's like. But thank god all looks good. You & your family will be in my prayers. Sendin ya lotsa o'love and (((hugs)))!!!
We will miss you greatly while you are gone.

Hey I'm a Leo too! Barry, dont change a bit..not for anyone! Your ramblings are not inapropriate at all..that's what friends are for right!?!

Poor Barry, I agree, try church. Maybe a gardening club. My friend from church found her fiance on eHarmony. We were all laughing about it just today at lunch.

Don't give up hope, my best friend's father remarried at age 92 & was married for a good many years before he died.

Linda

Kylie - my very best to you and your family and your sister will definately be in our thoughts and prayers.

Take care. You know we'll all be here thinking of you and your sister.

Barry, I would`nt change a thing.
I too believe the perfect person is out there for you.
The best thing you can do right now is take care of you.
Get dressed up and go out and have a good meal, get out of
the house.
I for one believe that it is wonderful if a man can cry
and show thier emotions, I dont call that weak at all.
You will get through this and meet the one for you.
Just hang in there!
Karen

Kylie, your sister and your family are in my prayers. Cancer is horrible, but we have come so far with medical advances that I know your sister will be fine. You are such a wonderful, caring sister. God bless.

Yes, I agree that everyone on this forum is very kind, and like Edna I feel like I know everyone even though we have never met. Everyone is so willing to share with a newbie, I can't wait til my brugs are big enough to share.
Chena, you and your sister will be in my prayers.

Kylie, I will pray for your sister. Please let me know her first name, so I can pray for her by name.

Ox, I am impressed that you can be vulnerable. So many people think that having a hard shell is strength, but that's simply a generalized fear reaction and not strength. It is really much stronger to be vulnerable. And as you are being vulnerable, stay away from all those damn people you can't be safe with when you are vulnerable.

Relationships can only grow when there is an approximately equal amount of self-disclosure. And when you are vulnerable and tell someone your feelings, it is an invitation for them to be more open and vulnerable. If they cannot be, you'll find out pretty fast, because often they will be rejecting to avoid the fear of vulnerability. Stay away from those people, because the relationship will never gain any depth.

As you become vulnerable, do it slowly with info that is not extremely close to your heart, so that you can get an initial sense of whether this person is safe. Then you can progress from there.

I agree with others, who say stay away from bars. You'll mostly find barflys. Church or synagogue is a great place, but not just any church or synagogue. Call the preacher, priest, or rabbi--you don't have to identify yourself, and simply say that you'd like to eventually find a nice woman and settle down and that if they don't mind your asking, HOW MANY SINGLE WOMEN DO YOU GUYS HAVE IN MY AGE GROUP. Go where there are a bunch.

And if you're a serious searcher, you can usually make two services on Sunday mornings at different churches and another Sun evening at another church. Catholic churches also have services on Saturday evening as do other denominations. I don't know the schedule at synagogues, and maybe some of you who are Jewish can help Ox with that info.

Remember the stats, that we get rejected 90 per cent of the time when asking for dates and don't dwell on it. Just move on to the next person you're interested in.

And then after developing a relationship, we all get rejected at times and have done the rejecting ourselves. Don't know how old you are, Ox, but physical beauty is very important up to the age of 25 and then the kind of person she is becomes much more important.

Of course there are many multiple people out there who will want to spend time with you. I'll tell the ultimate example of that from my own life and experience.

On internship in New York City, 1969-70, one morning in staffing at Bellevue hospital, two guys were interviewed. Not just one, but both of these guys had murdered their mothers, both had cut out their mothers' heart, and both had cooked their mothers' heart in a frying pan and then ate it. I realized right then that no matter how bad or ugly anyone ever got, there was someone out there for them to be close to.

I'll make the assumption that you are not that bad off. So looking and meeting people becomes fulltime in your spare hours, right?

This year is a prime year to meet lots of women in political campaigns. You can just take your ass down to a local place and sign up. You can sign up to work in democrat and republican races, for president, for Senate, for Congressional representatives and state and local races, and stay where you have the most prospects.

At these places, you are also more likely to find smart women who are willing to put themselves out for the interests of others. And better than church for good women hunting, you get to talk to them more than at church.

Of course when the tv cameras are there, you probably don't want to be seen by the public cheering at the McCain rallies AND the Obama or Clinton rallies. Happy hunting, Ox.

BTW, the quickest nonverbal binding strategy is to generally adopt the body language of the person you are interested in. And whenever you can, keep a palm open and keep that open palm from being facing down. It's fine in a sitting conversation to have your hand at your ear with your palm facing the other person.

And the final thing. Assuming the light on the person's eyes stays constant, if she is interested in you, her pupils will slightly dilate. If she's not, they'll stay the same, and if you piss her off, they will contract. So if in the conversation, you reach out and touch her arm or shoulder, look at those pupils to find out if they're expanding or contracting. If they expand, she likes it. If not, they'll contract.

Jim

Jim

JIm, thanks so much. Your advise gives me more encouragement to stay on course. I don't know if you are saying it, but those people willing to show there vulnerablilities are a low percentage in todays population, so I will have to wark hard at finding the right person. Thanks for putting that in perspective.
I like the Dirty Harry line: "A man's got to know his limitations". I learned a while ago that, although at times it alludes me, the ability to show your weeknesses and accept them is a strength.

I appreciate you lengthy message, especially the part about reading a woman through her eyes! That is priceless! Thank you!

I have to agree that the people I've met on this forum are by far the most welcoming and fun group I've met online. Barry come to the DC area. You'll be fighting women off with a stick, especially in your age group. The ratio of men to women is swayed so far in the male's favor. At this point in your life you need to find someone that wants you for who you are. You can't and shouldn't change just to suit someone else. That will never work. Besides that you need to be happy and content with yourself before you'll be happy with a partner. Spring will make everything look better. Kylie I hope that everything goes well with your sister.
Karyn

Well I have to say.. yes Karyn. And we all can have our bad days and week momments. I can admit last two weeks I was feeling vulnerable; I feel better now, especially after giving myself a break...and because of this big bunch of brug breeding buddies. I am human, after all, (except when it comes to growing plants, in which case I am king, 2nd of course only to guru Karma ;0) )

This group is like therapy, If someone is away, people get concerned. You guys are incredible!(getting mushy)

I will say again, someday we all have to meet in St. Louey for a party; Kyle will bring the booze and Karyn the cannabis. hahahaha.

Right,Ox, those who show vulnerabilities are a low percentage. One way to find if the person you are interested has the strength to be vulnerable is to show vulnerability in a way that you are not really vulnerable. This is a deception and a bit dishonest.

Years ago I saw a woman in treatment who had no friends and no one really wanted to talk to her. She was brilliant, gorgeous, built like a brick shithouse, and had excellent social skills. She had grown up thinking she was unlovable and to compensate tried to be perfect so no one would have something to criticize her for. Her reasoning was if she could be perfect that people then would like her. Faulty reasoning of course.

At the end of the first session and explaining gently her false reasoning, I asked her if she'd mind if I gave her an assignment. She said she didn't, and I assigned to f up something. She said strongly, "I CAN'T DO THAT!" I reminded her that she was bright and creative and that of course she could. She continued to protest, and I replied that perhaps she could in time.

At the time I saw her, she was in her mid thirties with a fairly long pattern of trying to be perfect and hiding her imperfections from others. She came to the next session with a big smile, and I said, "So what happened to YOU?" She said that she had f up something and I excitedly said, "Tell me."

She was in the hospital lab one morning and after a blood sample had been tested, she looked around and no one else was in the lab. She dropped the glass vial on the tile floor, and blood went everywhere--all over the cabinets, up on the table and all over her white uniform.

She began screaming and people started pouring in and asking her what happened. She breathlessly explained that she had dropped the sample and that she couldn't believe she was so clumsy. People started hugging her and told her that they didn't think she could make a mistake. She had so many hug her, that instead of going home and changing her uniform, she wore it the rest of the day.

People would stop her in the halls to ask what happened and then hug her and then the same in the elevator. To make a long story shorter, it was amazing the number of mistakes that she was easily able to make in the future and then tell people about. None of course were "mistakes" that would hurt a patient.

In time, women began to even let their husbands be around her in social situations. There too, among the husbands, she was always careful to make mistakes and tell people.

Good luck to you, Ox.

Jim