Yep, I think this forum is a good blend of enthusiastic newbies and seasoned gardeners that offer a good balance of knowledge and support.

The whole Milkweed genus gave me immense trouble when I first came here. I was always running into too many common names to figure out what people were referring to.

I've been raising leps and their host plants long enough that I've learned the proper names of most of them - what I forget, I can easily look up.
I prefer scientific names, also, for the reasons you mentioned, but I never know if others on the forum like me using them, so I sometimes use both names with a slash separating them.
Sherry

<i>Papilio polyxenes</i>
Papilio polyxenes
Now you have your italics!
-Jmcat

ROFLSHMTH!!
Rolling on floor laughing so hard my toenails hurt...excellent points all, but what about those of us who can't remember a scientific name to save our souls, much less our phone numbers or addresses? :) :) :)

We'll try, Ladobe, but 'crusta senex' or not, you're too darn sharp. :) :) :)

misssherry - IMO whether folks like you using them or not should have no bearing on it. You just took the next step in elevating your interest and understanding. Putting both is a good compromise. But since you always share your long experience and insight with others here freely, and many really pay attention to what you have to say, you have the opportunity of also teaching the next step, even if they have to "look it up". Miss Sherry's Biology 101 is in session.

jmcat - Thanks. Hadn't been here enough to know you can use code in posts.

onafixedincome - Touchy toe nails huh? LOL No doubt proper classification takes some time to learn and understand, and it's harder if you don't have a strong background in Latin/Greek like I do (which I learned early on just for my interests in nature). But when you do start to understand the Latinized names, they are quite descriptive and informative, start to make sense and eliminate any confusion of what the organism in question is. Took you some effort and time to learn the localized common names too, especially if you learned all those associated with the same organism in its entire range. And time and effort to learn the abbreviations associated with all those common names that are used here. But many common names don't even give a clue what family a species belongs to, let alone which genus - both often important with regards to their life histories and so needs to provide for in your garden.

Bottom line... folks should use what works for them and at the level they are comfortable with. For most here it is just a hobby and not a lifetime endeavor like it has been for me. Either way by promoting good habitat everyone here is benefiting the jewels of nature.

I will continue to use proper classification in my posts, mainly because I believe in it and I've done it too long not to. But also to be there for any who want to learn, and because I did not and will not learn all the common names let alone the abbreviations used here. I can't cast stones... I'm guilty of being lazy and using things like "leps" and "cats" myself. LOL

And what's wrong with "leps" and "cats" and "BFs"? I do agree that proper taxonomy would be better for species names, especially for newcomers to the forum who don't know the abbreviations we use. Like you pointed out, you can easily look up scientific names, but not a "PC" or whatever.
-Jmcat

I use both, but I often have to look up spellings. The curse of being an auditory learner: Everes comyntas or Evyres comintes?

Speaking of that species (the Eastern Tailed Blue), what's the deal with Cupido comyntas? Is that the new new genus or the old new genus?

Jeff

I have learned a great deal from you, Ladobe. Thank you for your participation in this forum.

I knew nothing about Lepidoptera until I discovered this forum two years ago. It will be good practice for me to learn latin names (although I can not pronounce half of them). I will make it a point to use only latin names ... this will be a great learning experience :-)

Edna

PC
Personal Computer
Computus infernalis
-Jmcat

jmcat - Nothing really wrong with using them I guess, especially by anyone who wants to here. I said that because I never did until I started hanging around this forum. Lepidoptera, larva/larvae/larval... yep those are right. LOL

jrcagle - Don't feel bad about having to look up spelling. That to will get easier as you learn to understand Latin and how it associates like characteristics together. So will pronunciation (and believe me that is another constant debate with even professional entomologists).

As for Everes comyntas/Cupido comyntas, they are synonymous. Lepidopterists, both professional and serious amateur, constantly argue about classification and do the research to try to prove their point of view. Some of them are what I call the Super Lumpers, some the Super Splitters. The assigned and recognized taxonomic names following the Linnaean classification system is largely based on shared similarities and cladistics. So, some authors feel they are proven to be one genus, some the other genus. Sooner or later one will win out and be the universally accepted genus assignment. FWIW, the genus or family is where most changes occur. Species names if valid in the first place usually remain pretty constant, with new research adding subspecies, forms, aberrations, etc to the original species name more often than actually changing an assigned species name. That does not always hold true though. An example would be Papilio coloro, which used to be P. rudkini and by many researchers is still lumped in as a subspecies of P. polyxenes. Don't worry though, these changes don't happen often. Even I tend to follow the taxonomic names I've used the longest rather than try to keep up with the changes now that I am out of the loop with the professionals.

Edna - Thanks girl. While my answers might seem too detailed and long-winded for most here, they are intended to be for those who want to learn. In 1964 when I first started studying lepidopteran life histories and genetics I didn't know all that much about them either. It's been a long and very rewarding journey though. I am still learning after all that time, and have picked up on some fine experiences leading to new ideas written here by others.

Larry

I think that for the vast majority of those who utilize this forum on a regular basis, the use of the acronyms aren't such a big deal. I do agree that using the species-specific names or taxonomic names are much more valuable, especially when identifying a butterfly that one is unfamiliar with. Using the acronyms just makes it much easier on the typist, which is why we have a listing, thanks to Larry Gene, in the FAQ, for those acronyms. On my various butterfly blogs (I actually have several now, although I only 'advertise' two) I do use the species names so as not to confuse anyone.

For example, I know that the 'Lady' butterflies can be quite baffling. I mean, many call almost all of them 'Painted Ladies' but there are distinct differences amongst them, however minute in the colourations, for example. Had I myself, not taken photographs of one I'd seen recently ovipositing on my Hollyhock, I would have sworn that the little green eggs were from a Painted Lady aka PL (Vanessa cardui) when in fact it was a West Coast Lady aka WCL (Vanessa annabella). Both lay greenish eggs and both use the Hollyhock and Malva as host plants (I had eggs on both plants) so those photographs helped tremendously. Of course, over time, the larvae would be a dead giveaway but it was nice knowing in advance what I was raising.

Another example...My husband had called me on the phone just two days ago stating he'd seen an unusual butterfly in our backyard. He said it looked like a Cabbage White but had an AB pattern on the tips of its wings when the wings were open but then again, looked like a Painted Lady or like some sort of camouflage when its wings were closed. He isn't one to sit and over-worry about taxonomic names as the relatively common names are what's easier for him and frankly, it isn't important. He was more interested in knowing what the heck our visitor was. As I worked late (nothing unusual) he got online and exclaimed, when I got home, "What the heck is an English butterfly doing in our backyard?" He'd somehow found a site that showed a picture of what was only listed as an Orange-tip without any taxonomic name. I peered over his shoulder and said, "Is that what you saw?" and he said, "It was like this one" so I told him to check the Sara Orange Tip. Sure enough, it came back with the species name Pacific Orange Tip, taxonomic name Anthocharis sara.

So, yes, taxonomic and species names are important. But, just as important, are the common names. I think of the common names somewhat like a nickname...know the common but also be aware of the 'whole' name. This way you won't confuse your butterflies.

Note: Recently I edited a butterfly handout for someone. One article contained within the handout repeatedly incorrectly spelled the taxonomic name of a most 'famous' butterfly. The article was written by a lepidopterist. (it was photocopied from a research journal, no less)

Yep, gotta be smarter than the spellchecker...not sure if that counts as a tech advancement or a step backward, frankly. And it's no darn good with scientific terms anyway. :)

Here's a question for you, ladobe...Why is Battus philenor (and polydamas) not a Papilio? It's still a swallowtail, with similar habits etc. The morphology of the caterpillar *is* markedly different from, say, Anise or Black ST, but...looked at Giant ST lately? LOL!

THAT one, I admit, I'm curious about.

But as for this one...what ARE we to make of it? It's real, it's a butterfly, but...

Pterourus troilus fakahatcheensis ??

Fake-a-hatch, eh? *grin*

I agree we should use the universal latin names for the butterflies, but since most people on the forum are in the US of A, we pretty much can agree on the common names, too.

We occasionally do have a european butterflier who stops by for an ID, but rarely.

I am familiar with the latin names of plants, shrubs and trees, and if I am looking at a host plant site that offers both latin and common names, I choose latin, because I'm much more in tune with the latin names, and common names can be very deceiving. For instance, "Daisy" can refer to a wide variety of plants.

But, I am going to try to brush up on my "latin for leps"! We appreciate you so much on the forum, Ladobe!

Susan

Yes, Ladobe, I too appreciate your input here!

When I first saw you were from Nevada, I thought...What kind of Leps could he possibly find in the desert? Know that I've just returned from there, I know better. I saw the most beautiful birds, lizards, insects, and plants there.(And the people were very kind. They are the most courteous drivers I've ever seen.)

This post has inspired me to make an effort to learn the proper names. Thanks.

Maryann in CT

tdogmom & Susan - We may mostly be in the US & Canada, but common names can and do vary depending on where you are in North America, both with our bugs and with our plants. It surely is a big help to those new to the forum to have a FAQ to go to for help with the acronyms. Would be an even bigger help if there was a FAQ listing all of our species by taxonomic name, all known common names and the acronyms used here. Big project though. Pretty certain I would never be called a lazy typist (just a long-winded one). LOL So I'll use the proper taxonomy for those who care to learn them even though I am starting to learn some of the other names used here.

onafixedincome - Battus is one of those problematic genus assignments, and as far as I know the jury is still out whether it is in fact a valid genus or a tribe. Most determinations are based on natural concepts under the modern Linnaeus system, and they can change because of new knowledge gained in things like genetics, evolution and morphology. Battus verses Papilio are mainly separated because of shared physical characteristics that differ between those in each genus. I could list at least some of the main ones, but I think that goes beyond answering your question at this point. They are also separted by some because of Battus using Aristolochia and its close cousins for its larval food plant, presumably to afford much the same protection as Danaus plexippus gets from feeding on Asclepias. But that is problematic too because some species assigned to other papilionid genera do the same thing, especially in tropical genera. When all of these differences are considered together in doing the dertermination of a bug, the genus it most closely represents is usually the one they are assigned to. Hope that at least partially answered you question.

Maryann - Glad you enjoyed your visit. It is surprising to most first time visitors how friendly most of the residents in the Capitol of Sin really are. It's actually a great place to live and safely raise a family, with less crime than most cities its size and an endless list of things to do 24/7/365 in year-round mostly shirt sleeve weather. Most residents are very courteous drivers, but they are also speed demons here and drive super fast. When I want to get from point A to point B across town, I drive the Corvette instead of my truck. And since it's verey easy to get a speeding ticket changed to a parking ticket here, the LE's don't bother with speeders unless they are driving wreckless and endangering other drivers lives. It's even common when going WAY over the posted speed to notice you are following a LE on patrol. So, we don't have Fender Benders here. LOL

Larry, our FAQ does contain info on the acronyms we use, which is very helpful. When I first joined this forum, I used it a lot because it was a completely foreign language to me. I got used to it quickly, though. I used to work for the federal government, and knowledge of acronyms was an essential skill.

I got used to latin terms because I was a paralegal for many years, and the law incorporates a lot latin terminology.

Susan

Ladobe, I'm no scientist, but I've raised hundreds, maybe thousands of Papilios - P. glaucus, P. troilus, P. polyxenes, P. palamedes, and P. cresphontes - and battus philenors, and I think battus is very different from the others. The caterpillars and the chrysalids of Papilios are similar to each other (especially P. troilus and P. palamedes) whereas battus has its own individual characteristics, even an unusual, uniquely smelling frass. I assume this smell comes from the aristolochia that it eats, so polydamas swallowtails' frass probably smells the same, I don't know for sure never having raised them.
Sherry

Susan -

Well, a little critique on the FAQ and the use of these acronyms (not directed at larry gene or anyone in particular so please donÂt be upset about it). IÂll just pick some examples from this short list and how they can be confusing to new visitors to the forum, both a rank newbie and seasoned lepidopterist.

-
BST--black swallowtail
BS--Black Swallowtail

Is one for P. polyxenes and the other as a color characteristic? I assume these are to represent a particular species (P. polyxenes) and not all the other swallowtailÂs that are black (and there are a lot of them that are)? Could be taken either way by someone who hasnÂt frequented the forum long enough to know the difference, and so no real way of knowing exactly which bug it is referring to.

-
ladies, lady--painted lady butterflies
PL--painted lady butterfly

Vanessa cardui, V. carye (annabella), V. viginiensis, or does it refer to all painted ladies in general? Unless the latter, they also are confusing what bug is being referred to. I wonÂt get into the fact that "Lady/Ladies" is used locally for totally unrelated lepidopteran species on other continents because few here travel to those places to pursue this hobby. Painted Ladies is also a common name of certain plants that are grown here though, African violets comes to mind.

-
TS--Tiger Swallowtail

Papilio appalachienis, P. canadensis, P. glaucus or P. rutulus? I know, we go by the location of the person using it. No that wonÂt work some of their ranges overlap. LOL
-

Back when I did seminars open to the public I did use "local" common names (if they had one) for a particular species along with their taxonomic name, and occasionally terms such as "swallowtail" while pointing out to the kids why that general term applies to them. But many species do not have even "local" common names and at best can only be lumped under descriptive names commonly used to describe the family they fit into (like skippers, sulfurs, swallowtails, etc.) unless you also site the taxonomic name.

So like I said before, I canÂt cast any stones. Still say you all should use what works for you and IÂll use what works for me. Sooner or later weÂll all understand what the other is referring to, and in the end thatÂs all that really matters for the purposes of this hobby forum.

missserry -
I knew you have reared a lot of livestock, and for a long enough time to have a huge jump on understanding, making comparisons AND discovering new things in this field. But I'm no scientists either unless I get a little credit for starting my after Vietnam life as a Marine Biologist. Like you I learned about Lepidoptera from long expierence as a very serious amateur, and being lucky enough to have the opportunity to study them with some of the worlds most knowledgeable professionals and amateurs.

It's only logical that what a larva eats will effect the charcteristics of its frass (and the scent of its osmeterium in Papilionidae). Within the North American Papilionidae its the most apparent in the Parnassiinae though, who have very acidic and wet frass due to the preferred Sedum (Crassulaceae) their larva dine on. Also makes them much harder to rear successfully as they are very prone to disease (I practically wrote the book on rearing this group). Papilonidae (and many other genera) in the tropics can also have that charcateristic, with some using very toxic plants and so passing toxic frass.

Keep at it, and let me know when you rear about 35K in a year (the highest number my ex, son and I ever did in a year). ;-)

I don't plan on raising 35K leps in a year, Ladobe - I'd like to live another year to raise more! :)
I guess it's the tentacles on Battus philenor caterpillars as much as anything else that makes them different. None of the other swallowtails I raise have them, as a matter of fact, none of the other leps I raise have them.
Sherry

It's true that the Battus philenor have a most unusual odour to their frass and I am sure that it probably has a lot to do with their food source, the Aristolochia plant. MissSherry, you are right in that they are definitely quite different in appearance from other 'swallowtails.' My sense of smell is quite sensitive and I tell you, this most recent batch of Battus philenor (although I would much rather utilize the acronym PVS for Pipevine Swallowtail, however, you could call the Gold Rim a Pipevine Swallowtail since they also utilize Aristolochia as a host plant, right, ladobe? ;P)

Anyhoo, the Battus philenor certainly has a characteristic odour that is unique. Their little spikes are unique as well since the 'other' so-called swallowtails are all smooth. So, separating them does make sense.

Just a thought...
CalSherry aka tdogmom

Just a suggestion for Larry_Gene, but it would be easier for people like me, if we had a list in our FAQ on the latin names of the butterflies???????? Perhaps Ladobe could help work on it, but I know that LG has a grasp on latin names. Haven't seen much of him this year yet. Anyone heard from him?

Susan

tdogmom -
I guess you could call any Papilionidae that use Artistolochia a Pipevine Swallowtail. And that includes a big bunch of them if you consider the world genera of Papilionidae that do use that group of plants. That would would include many of the tropical Graphium species from North, Central and South America, the South Pacific, Eurasia, Africa, etc for example.

Susan -
That would be a massive list to assemble even just for the lepidoptera that are or could be encountered in North America, especially if you include all of the Macrolepidoptera, Microlepidoptera, their species, subspecies, forms, races and aberrations and the synonyms. Hundreds if not thousands of books already have those lists and IMO if anyone wants to take the next step it would start with buying one of the few good books already out there. I say few because all are not created equal and depend on how an author interpret's known data. Unfortunately some of the best are long out of print even though they are not up to date with the changes in taxonomy since they were written.

Have to cut this short... son just showed up for a days visit. I'll be back with some comments on Battus.

OK--I;m going to chime in here as a newbie. At first, my gut reaction was overwhelming depression that I would have no idea what people were referring to, but then I guess I did learn the abbreviations and use them myself now. Eventually as the proper names get used, I'm sure I'll catch on.

I know what the v. caudis is now (I think) and the battus and the papillonidae simply because people have been referring to the butterflies using the latin terminology.

But, I wonder if the exclusive use of the latin terminology would alienate really new people? I'm not so sure how much I would have hung around if people were batting around these terms. It would have seemed as if it were "professionals only" here.

With all of that said, it will be a new endeavor for me to learn the latin classifications.

I'll use both the common and the scientific names with a slash separating them, unless I forget, of course - that happens a lot these days.
Sherry

bernergrrl -

Those are some very good points. But you still chose to learn the common names and acronyms being used. Luckily itÂs a short list as it has been shown they are not always correct for what they are being used for. Like with anything else there is a learning curve with Lepidoptera, and a large curve if you include taxonomy. Those using what works for them and adding proper taxonomy as they learn it have the right idea I think. In the end they will greatly benefit for their efforts, as will those who learn by association from their efforts.

A bug is not a bug necessarily by another name. ;-)

Larry

bernergrrrl, I agree with you. I think back to when I first joined this group as well and had I read only words like Papilio cresphontes, Battus philenor, Papilio rutulus, Vanessa cardui, etc. then chances are I wouldn't have hung around for very long, thinking I'd stumbled upon a group that was above my head, particularly for someone just learning! I think the low-key and friendliness, together with the way the forgiving nature of the folks on this group is what promotes the feeling of bonhomie and love of continuing what we do. If we use an acronym, for the most part, I think it is understood that what butterfly is found in one part of the country is not always the same as one found in another. We've shared how a particular plant is not always as well-liked by butterflies from state to state and whatnot as well. :)

Excellent comment Sherry. One of the true values of this community is the diversity and friendliness of its members. We are of so many different backgrounds yet are all fascinated by butterflies.

I often get emails from people like John Himmelman and Dave Wagner because we belong to the same group(CT BA)..I know they are way otta my league in the lep circles..yet they are always enthusiastic and down to earth.

It keeps everybody interested. Even so, Larry's post has inspired me to try a little harder to learn the proper Latin names.

Such a kind and accepting bunch.

Maryann in CT

Exclusive use of scientific names on this forum would discourage many current and future participants.

However, being bilingual is an advantage in any situation where both common and science are spoken.

The two naming systems are 6 of one and half a dozen of the other when a wide variety of people are involved. Simply ask for a clarification when common names are lacking in precision. The scientific names with their synonyms and re-splitting/lumping can be just as time-consuming to deal with as the common names. Tracking down moth names has made me ornery concerning this naming topic!