Hi Sandy,

I'm totally jealous - I'd love to be in Florida right now! I have spoken to several butterfly conservatory curators and here's what they've said....government regulations prohibit conservatories from providing host plants for tropical species because they are not licensed to be breeders, plus the USDA does not allow for the release of non-native species into the environment anyway. But we already knew that much. The butterflies do breed (just try to stop them!) but have no hosts to feed their caterpillars. Although, I have been to a couple of conservatories that didn't know that banana trees are the host for owl butterflies or that nasturtiums were a host for great southern whites or that grapefruit trees were a host for African citrus butterflies, etc. The curators ended up having to pick off the eggs each morning and dispose of them :(
Basically, you can't stop what comes natural for the butterflies, you can only limit the opportunities of their offspring to be successful. I don't know if this would prolong the life of the butterflies or not (probably just the fact that they are in an enclosure away from most predators helps) since the males use a lot of energy for mating, but I bet the egg-filled females are frustrated!
If I win the lottery some day, I want to build my own conservatory just for native species so I could provide them with all the host plants they need! I'd have to post "Caution: caterpillar-crossing" signs all over the place :)

Judy
www.ButterflyNature.com

And Judy, if I win the lottery someday, I'll have you build it and be curator!

I've often wondered why butterfly houses only seem to contain non-native species.

While I find Alexandria Birdwings, Morphos, and all the other topicals beautiful, I still think that Buckyes, PVS, Zebra Longwings, etc. are just as beautiful.

And the opportunity to use our native species for environmental education is so important. Look at how children respond to Monarchs. It's a native, and by no means rare, yet it inspires environmental conservation in many.

The ability of our native species to survive our cold winters is fascinating. And some are no less threatened than some rain forest species.

Not all information is correct from butterflly houses. Some of the volunteers will either make up answers, misunderstand what they were told or the museum passes information because they do not want to tell the correct answer. I know because I volunteered for a museum. An answer of I don't know is very appropriate. Someone asked me how old are butterflies and if they were around during the dinosaur age. I later found out that they came much later than dinosaurs. I did some research and found out the answer myself.

Laying eggs just may lessen a butterflies lifespan. As I see it, it takes energy out of them to mate and lay eggs, but it isn't the total answer. Butterflies do mate in the exhibits even without host plants. They will lay their eggs wherever then can and, of course, the eggs hatch and the larva die. You have to have special licensing from USDA to raise exotic butterflies (more money for that). The USDA is very concerned of butterflies in the exhibits escaping out into the wild and the cause and effects of that. When the butterflies die, the exhibit people gather them up and freeze them for 48 hrs to kill any diseases the butterflies may carry, before they are thrown out or reused elsewhere. Now back to the question: I have seen and taken pictures of butterflies mating in the exhibits. I was at the Gainesville exhibit and they do have caterpillars that they raise. This was outside of the exhibit. They explained that this part of the exhibit was used to educate the public. I agree with Judy's answer as we did have banana plants and the staff would get rid of the caterpillars when no one was looking.

The exhibits pass the information that holding a butterfly will kill it. That answer is somewhat true. If you do not hold it properly, you just might, but a butterfly losing some of its scales is okay. It just doesn't keep their butterflies looking pretty. I have seen some people holding butterflies while they are trying to fly away. I saw a young kid (2-3 yrs old) purposely step on a butterfly in the exhibit when the parents didn't expect that etc. You just never know what to expect in the exhibits.

Butterfly Sue now in FL

"And the opportunity to use our native species for environmental education is so important. Look at how children respond to Monarchs. It's a native, and by no means rare, yet it inspires environmental conservation in many."

Here here, Emmayct!!! I totally agree. Maybe people's interest in their own backyard and the things in it will be piqued by going to a Butterfly House... who knows.

Judy and Sue - thanks for your responses, lots of interesting info. Interesting about the USDA stuff. I guess most of the Butterflies in these Houses would be non-native as they all seem to be "rainforest" type habitats. Didn't think of that!

Shame about the kid sqaurshing the butterfly - oh DEAR! is all I have to say!!

Appreciatively,

Sandy

I don't know if I could actually go to a butterfly house or conservatory. I think I would prefer to see butterflies indigenous to the US, in their natural habitats, and many states now list good siting areas.

Susan

Well now that's sad. I always assumed that they raised butterflies too. What a waste. : ( I wonder where the breeders are, U.S. or other countries. I would think if there are butterfly conservatories that are also breeders, they would be able to raise more rare butterflies rather than just common ones that are easily replaced when they die. Perhaps conditions need to be more sterile than a public facility to be able to raise the butterflies successfully.

The only one I've been to is the Butterfly House in St. Louis. Has anyone ever been to the one in Houston? Houston is on our list of places we might visit this summer. I've looked for reviews/ratings of the different butterfly houses and didn't find anything.

I enjoyed visiting the one in St. Louis very much. Of course, I like seeing the plants almost as much as the butterflies. My kids loved it.

According to the curators I've spoken with, the conservatories buy the tropical butterflies from places like Costa Rica, Brazil, etc. The good news about creating a demand for these butterflies is that as a result, instead of cutting down rainforest trees to sell as timber, many of these people have switched to raising their native butterflies for export to our zoos and conservatories. They don't remove the butterflies from the wild...instead they grow the host plants just as we would and raise the butterflies themselves. Once they pupate, they are shipped all over the world for release into the conservatories. So as a result, the economy of these low income countries is improved and we get to enjoy the beauty of butterfies that we would never get to see in our own country. There is nothing quite like going to one of these conservatories and being surrounded by hundreds of dazzling butterflies! It really is theraputic, and the kids are just wild about it. And I'm hoping that eventually butterfly-farming will help to save the remaining rainforest.

Judy

I don't know, Judy. To me, it's kind of like the zoos used to treat animal exhibits; confined, cramped quarters, and they always and still do have breeding problems. Now, they've finally gotten a hint, though, that wild animals do better in a habitat created similar to their own. I supposed the exotic butterfly exhibits are similar to their own as well, but to me, they are meant to fly free, etc. What about interbreeding? Is that a possibility? I know they've already created a hybrid butterfly, but don't recall between which two butterflies it is. And escapes could bring us another catastrophe like the Cabbage White and the Gypsy Moth eventually.

IMHO, we've already "messed with Mother Nature" enough and at some point we should just leave her alone and let her do her job.

Susan

Sandy - Have you been to Butterfly World in Coconut Creek, Florida? I came across a link for it yesterday. It says it's the largest in the U.S. (world's largest?) and they do have a breeding program there. Wish it was closer to Disney World. I think it would be easier to get my DH to stop there.
Susan - I think you would enjoy visiting a butterfly house. The one I visited was fairly large and the butterflies had lots of room to fly free. It's beautiful inside with all the tropical plants and waterfalls and such.
I couldn't get this link to work on Firefox for some reason but it worked on Internet Explorer. There's a virtual tour with photos.

Here is a link that might be useful: ButterflyWorld in Coconut Creek

You probably have a good point Susan. My thinking is that if they can reach just a few of the visitors that come through the door and change attitudes and gardening techniques, they've done a greater good.

Branson had an added attraction for the younger ones. Amber was fascinated with all of it. She's learned it's more fun to attract them closer to us with plants than using nets that might harm them.

photos from a few years ago. clickable thumbnails

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randy

...ya'll just have to come to south Texas during our peak butterfly season (Fall season). We get about 320 species as last count. All flitting around on their own...no cages...no displays...just some really good butterfly parks filled with the right larval hosts and nectaring plants. Of course, our warm temps also help.

~ Cat

Here is a link that might be useful: South Texas NABA chapter site

Susan - aren't most of us here in forum doing just that - "messing with nature" (as in bringing in cats and raising them ourselves)? ;) The people running the houses are just doing it on a grander scale, perhaps. Hopefully there are responsible, knowledgable people in charge and they know what they are doing. If not then I believe it's up to us as visitors to delve into these places, ask questions and make a stink about it if something smells fishy. Just my opinion! :)

Christie - Butterfly World looks amazing! Unfortunately we're on the Gulf Coast and don't think we'll be able to make it over there with our schedule. Dang.

Randy - is Amber your daughter? SO cute! Great photos!!

Sandy

Hi Sandy,

Amber is my daughter. We grew extra tomatoes last summer for hornworms. She loved going out to the plants and getting a head count. Think she counted 10 one day.

Cat,

Going down for that sounds like a great trip.

randy

Sandy, no I actually don't think of it as the same thing. I raise them on the plants they would be eating anyway, and release them to nature when they pupate. In the exhibits, they don't release them. They just fly around in a contained area, much more contained than they would in their actual open habitat areas, which could extend for miles and miles.

I guess we all have our own views on the exhibits and that's okay.

Randy, I love that pic of Amber and the cockatoo! Very smart birds! Very smart daughter you have, too! I can just picture her now, counting hornworms! Hee Hee. She'll love counting Monarchs and other butterflies, too!

Susan

Hey Susan - I meant humans "in general" messing with raising butterflies... you and *most* people here know what they're doing .... but sometimes people don't, and end up killing more eggs cats due to lack of knowledge - ie not keeping things clean or not knowing about parasites/viruses, and thus releasing butterlflies back to nature that nature perhaps intended not to live.

And who's to say that the cat you brought in was not meant to be a meal for another of nature's creatures? This also could be considered "messing with nature".... anyhow, here's to getting all deep and philosophical here and COMPLETELY off the topic of butterflies mating behaviors! :)

And of course I do understand what your views on exhibits and agree wholeheartedly with the idea of things living the way they were supposed to. I find zoos terribly depressing. Just playing devil's advocate! :)

Sandy

I have been to the butterfly house in Houston. THe museum was really nice with so much to offer. I know they probably have changed some of the exhibits by now. THe butterfly house was nice. I would rate the St. Louis one better, in fact, it is one of my top three favorites. The Houston one is worth a visit and I like to sometimes compare the exhibits as each is unique and offers different things.

I have a page with as many butterflies places to visit listed on it as I can and try to keep it updated which can be hard to do. I find some of these places very good and some not. If I visit and find them not too good, off the list they go. Some places I have been to but my pictures did not turn out or I just haven't had the time to prepare a page on them.

Here is a link that might be useful: Butterfly House and Festivals etc to visit

Sandy, I feel like we humans are what caused the loss of so much habitat for the butterflies in the first place, and Mother Nature has now endowed us with the earnest desire to help replace it, and to help the butterflies persevere. For every caterpillar that may expire in human hands, you're right, they would probably be eaten by other birds and insects. However, I believe there are plenty of caterpillars to go around. I have lots of caterpillars that I don't raise. Sometimes the insects get to them before I do. LOL!

Humans have killed a lot of caterpillars - like the Karner Blue - simply by virtually erasing their habitat. More butterflies are lost thru habitat loss than anything else. And, yes, that is by the hand of homo sapiens. There is just simply no way to make up for all the lost habitat, but I try in my small way, to protect the butterfly eggs, cats, and butterflies, as much as I can. The best way to do that is by knowledge. Reading, forums, internet searches, providing food plants in the form of nectar and host plants. I try. That's the best I can tell you. I try. I used to believe the same way that you do. Just leave them alone in the garden and let them do their thing. However, I heard Steve Irwin once say, that the only way you can truly appreciate and want to save an animal, is by holding it, touching it, being close to it. That is what makes a person want to "save" a species. So, I just merely am an instrument in helping the egg hatch, the caterpillar grow, the chrsalis hang safely, the butterfly to emerge, and then I release it into it's environment to live out it's life, however long that may be. Now, that I have raised a few, I want to "save" even more. Not spraying chemicals in my garden encourages many other insects, including those that feast on eggs, caterpillars, and butterflies. They have plenty to eat or they wouldn't stick around. LOL!

Sorry to be so wordy, but raising butterflies inspires me to no lengths. I'm not criticizing or anything. I'm just conveying what it means to me.

Susan

Susan - I wholeheartedly agree with all you've written - and try to implement the same intelligent research/good gardening habits in my own little corner of the world. Mostly native, no chems, etc etc! Totally.

Like I said previously, just playing devil's advocate. :) The circle of life is an amazing thing, and unfortunately very few humans understand or care about it, which is absolutely why there is such major habit loss for most of the wildlife in this country. It's good there are people out there like you who do understand it.

Back to the Butterfly Houses, again, I have to agree with Randy - that maybe visiting one will inspire someone somewhere to do something in their little corner too, or give city kids a chance to hold a butterfly and be close to it and appreciate it, even if they don't have grass in their backyards as us lucky folks. A tropical butterfly is still a butterfly, and maybe it will inspire them to get out and "take a hike", as it were, to seek out the locals.

Maybe these little guys will have "given their lives" living in an enclosed space to the greater good of butterfy appreciation worldwide - much like when some people here were euthanizing migratory Monarchs and shipping them off to Monarch watch for research purposes... all for the greater good! :)

Sandy

The Huntsville Botanical Garden (Huntsville, AL) recently opened a 9000 sq. ft. butterfly house, replacing a much smaller one that became a wild success. It is their policy to bring in only native (to the U.S.) species.

Visiting such a place as a child (or with a child) has an enormous impact, and leaves a lingering impression that is likely to foster an interest to learn more. I take my adult classes to the facility whenever I'm teaching entomology or IPM, and the experience is an important one for everybody.

This thread has inspired me. I live in Grand Rapids,MI and we have an annual butterfly exhibit for two months at our Fredrick Meijer Gardens and Sculpture Park. The butterflies are all tropical, as far as I know, but it is an overwhelmingly popular attraction. We,ve gone at least once per year since it opened, and often several times as relatives and friends come to town and want to visit the exhibit. What I'm thinking, is that we could have photos and written materials describing our own butterflies (including the Karner Blue!) along the areas where people wait in line to see the butterflies. I bet I could even get the park to establish a native butterfly garden, complete with some sort of screen house for protecting a few of the cats the garden might attract. The place has been there about 15 years and has been phenomenally successful. Unlike the rest of Michigan, that place has more money than it knows what to do with, and I think this kind of project would be a perfect extension of the current arrangement. There is already a Native Michigan Prairie area that contains native wildflowers and grasses, so really, they're half-way there already. I'm so excited! I'll have to call someone Monday morning.
Martha

Martha, so glad you could join us on the Butterfly Forum. We are really a fun, informative group, and I think you would help inspire us and others, too! We really love new people who decide to participate on the forum (well, we love new people even if they choose not to participate).

Your ideas sound great! I especially love the idea about incorporating the Karner Blue into your literature to encourage others to try to increase their declining population by planting lupinus perennis. There is a NABA chapter in West Michigan. You probably already know about it, but I will attach a link in case any other Michiganers might be interested.

You can get a head start on host plants if you want, by winter sowing seeds, but if you have plenty of funds, you may want to just purchase native plants. A non-profit might even be able to get donations from native plant sources. Just make sure the plants have not been treated with chemicals or the larvae will die.

Michigan is a very progressive state, so you have a lot of sources available, it seems.

Please come back to the forum and let us know what you find out from your phone call, and GO BUTTERFLIES!

Susan

Here is a link that might be useful: West Michigan NABA Chapter

Martha - what a GREAT idea! Glad this thread was inspiring. :)

Just read your page here and wish I had the room to plant more things like you do. We had a huge strawberry patch growing up - man I miss that! And the worm factories sound great. We have an awesome little compost heap in our backyard that is just crazy with worms and good stuff.

Keep us posted on your phone calls and progress - I hope you are successful in convincing the powers that be to implement a native garden near the butterfly house.

Sandy :)

Go, Martha, go.

The natural extension of a tropical butterfly house in colder areas would be a natural butterfly garden outside the exhibit. It could inspire many others to try attacting their own native species. I'll be they would be as awestruck as I was when I saw my first buckeye up close. Our natives are just as beautiful as the tropicals and are much more accessible.

Good luck, and let us know how it goes.

Maryann

I have been to Butterfly World in Coconut Creek. It is larger than some others I have been in but there were many more butterflies in the exhibit than in other places. I also liked that they did have our native butterflies in with the exotics. They also have an extensive variety of Passionvines that are gorgeous and healthy plants to sell that are reasonably priced.

It is near Boca Raton off I-95.

They also have a Hummingbird exhibit, which is really neat. You can get up close to the birds.

Just FYI. I left phone messages with a few different people at my local butterfly conservatory re: the possibility of an outdoor native butterfly exhibit in the future. I got one message back that someone had sent my idea on to the education department. I'm still very excited and I'm determined to see this happen. I'll keep you all informed. Once I know more, I'll post a separate thread.
Martha