Correct Notation for Scientific Classification
Reuel
9 years ago
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terrestrial_man
9 years agoReuel
9 years agoRelated Discussions
Understanding Scientific Nomenclature
Comments (23)Hello Paalexan ... "The short version of all those disagreements being that whenever you have high hobbyist interest in a taxonomic group, some of the hobbyists want to recognize all variation at the species level, which leads to large numbers of spurious species." I agree but at the same time taxa are being divided by new data which in a morphological or better yet a "visual sense" are very simalar .. example : the breakup of the genus Opuntia. This makes new taxa a bit "spurious" to the serious hobbyist. Also .. I think ... the motivation to accept new nomenclature differs between taxonamist and hobbyist. To the taxonamist new names often demonstrate scientific progress of some kind .. to the hobbyist confusion as to who is called what now ?? To the hobbyist the cost of accepting new names are not justified by the benafits. In this sense the taxonamist is the "splitter" and creator of too many "needless" taxa. In addition groups like Cactii and Orchids are also fairly complex in morphology and have been researched considerably more then other taxa and to no ones fault one would expect a long nomenclatural history. All this is complicated by variabilty introduced by cultivation. Lastly .. Who really is the taxonamist ? Does anyone or a single group really have the final word ? A hobbyist could very well bethe "expert". I would guess that in many groups of plants it is much easier for a single expert or small group of experts to agree and set nomenclature. In other popular groups of plants their is a very large audience that needs to agree on who is called what and why. More chance for disagreements and even intentional "revolts" against name changes. Just some more thoughts ... good chatting with you .. thanks for the Journal references ... very helpful !! Good Day ......See MoreSystem of classification and nomenclature
Comments (30)"but if we are to attempt to name a species and have that name have any indication of phylogeny then there has to be evidence for cohesion within a group. " Yes and there is a lot of evidence to support the cohesion of many taxonomic groups ... you keep pointing to the glass half empty .... ( Universities like to do that .. Iremember ... now LOL ) My original and only point from the very beginning of this thread is that our knowledge of taxonamy is good enough to identify any plant on the earth unless it is unknown to botanical science ... and once that plant is studied it too can be named and classified and it's phylogeny shown to the best of our current day knowledge ... a major goal of all of taxonamy ... You barked at that statement ... remember ...said it was completely untrue ... frankly I find it quite amazing you can not grasp that LOL your getting lost in philosophy ... You seem to think the world must stop until we answer the question "What is a species" ... my point we have been answering it for two thousand years ... thats why we have over 350,000 plants named and classified to show thier phylogeny the best as we can know it to be today... taxonamist were quite busy getting things done long before you or I went to college ... OFCOURSE there is more work to be done but we are better prepared today then we ever were before in botanical history. Good Day ......See MoreTaxonomy
Comments (29)tdogmom - I guess you could call any Papilionidae that use Artistolochia a Pipevine Swallowtail. And that includes a big bunch of them if you consider the world genera of Papilionidae that do use that group of plants. That would would include many of the tropical Graphium species from North, Central and South America, the South Pacific, Eurasia, Africa, etc for example. Susan - That would be a massive list to assemble even just for the lepidoptera that are or could be encountered in North America, especially if you include all of the Macrolepidoptera, Microlepidoptera, their species, subspecies, forms, races and aberrations and the synonyms. Hundreds if not thousands of books already have those lists and IMO if anyone wants to take the next step it would start with buying one of the few good books already out there. I say few because all are not created equal and depend on how an author interpret's known data. Unfortunately some of the best are long out of print even though they are not up to date with the changes in taxonomy since they were written. Have to cut this short... son just showed up for a days visit. I'll be back with some comments on Battus....See MoreAre all yellow beans wax beans?
Comments (32)Hi zeedman, hope everything is going well with you. Thanks again for the two kinds of "MN" cowpeas, they did wonderfully even with the bad growing season we had here. My project is making slow progress. I have more raw data to go through than I have time available. Much bigger project than I anticipated (as is usual for me). I thought it would be safer to have all my hard work on an offline computer so I acquired a second one that is dedicated just to the project. I linked a database to a spreadsheet. I settled on using the database for general information and I give every variety its own number. That number is referenced on the spreadsheet for further details and information. The spreadsheet offers a quick side-by-side comparison of varieties by using category checkmarks. Works pretty good. The thing is, the more time I spend and the more knowledge I acquire, the more obsessed I become. Beans sure are fascinating. A big problem is categorizing because of all the different terminologies and because many beans have multiple uses. The yellow/wax was one small issue, but there are more such as Romano beans versus flat beans, Lima (and Fava?) versus broad beans, French beans and filet beans, horticulturals and shellies, etc. Are cornfield beans distinctly different from typical pole beans or just regional terms for the same thing? Why are runner beans varieties of Phaseolus coccineus but 1/2 runner beans are varieties of Phaseolus vulgaris? That kind of confusing stuff. I am having to constantly go back into my "finished" data and correct errors or update information. Two steps forward, one step back. Second big problem is that I wanted a photo of each variety with beans set on as well as a photo of the dry seed beans. Not going to happen in my lifetime. ;-) Was such a distraction and time-killer that I dropped the whole idea for now. All in all I would say I am generally making progress, considering I only have time to work on it in the winter. I am a lot farther along now than when I last posted on this thread, but have a long way to go. I branched out into greasies, cutshorts, fall beans, teparies, tropical and subtropical beans, asian beans, foreign varieties available commercially, extinct varieties, etc. I also am working on cowpeas and soybeans just because I am so interested in them. When I get frustrated with the snap and dry beans I work on these categories instead. The biggest eye opener by far is how much duplicity is out there. I am convinced a great many varieties are actually the same ones with different names. I have come across seed companies and even growers and market sellers that arbitrarily change the names for selling purposes. Heck, I am even guilty. I got some bean seeds in a trade and the woman, an immigrant from eastern Europe, didn't know what they were so I named them after the nearest towns they came from in her homeland. What am I to do, call them "Unknown 1" and "Unknown 2" forever? I don't think what I did is quite as bad as changing a name to make a variety sound "cute" or make them more marketable, but the end result is confusion just the same. Finally, I hate to sound greedy, but I think this project may be worthy of publishing if I can get it finished, rather than free-sourcing it on the web. Several people I have shown it to have suggested looking into that possibility. Wasn't my original intention but because it is so complex I now feel I should try to get some kind of return on my investment of time and energy, if possible. This is nowhere on the priority lists, though, and if it ultimately doesn't happen it is no big deal to me. My personal collection is growing. With this year's orders and trades I am at well over 100 varieties of bush and pole snap and dry beans, asian beans, cowpeas, and soybeans. We have an informal little local club of hobby growers that are all interested in these so we coordinate and plant different varieties and swap seeds with each other. Pretty fun. Take care, -Tom I know it is improper to ask - wrong forum, wrong thread - but if anyone has any white wax beans would you be willing to part with a few seeds? I really want to acquire some. Thanks much....See Morebrandon7 TN_zone7
9 years agolycopus
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9 years agoReuel
9 years agolycopus
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9 years agoReuel
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