Just a guess from the old days, since the x denotes a cross, you'll have to grow out many 'til they flower to get the one you want.

Dan

'Course it also depends on exactly what you mean by true from seed. The term cultivar is actually not as pinned down as it probably should be, but, at least for most woody plants (and most especially for interspecific hybrids, as in this case), seedling offspring are not considered to be part of the same cultivar as their parents. Even if you eventually end up with a tree with many of the general aesthetics similar to the parent, it's not the same tree.

most likely.. momma is dying...

i want another.. but really might not need to blow another $125 on a named one .. if the nut grown tree has any version of a red flower ..

might even get lucky and get a better red ...

soooooo .... what are the odds it will be red flowered.. IYHO ....

ken

You're liable to get a range of pigmentation among seedlings. I'd just look for a cheaper specimen from a nursery, 125 dollars is not a fixed cost.

A retail outlet I worked at had flowering plants in ~5 gallon pots under the cultivar name once, these had varying pigmentation showing the wholesale supplier was selling seedlings instead of grafts.

The seedling offspring will have red flowers, but the quality of the plant is variable. It's said that the seeds of many x carnea hybrids are sterile. Don't know if that's true, or not.

IIRC - and its been a long time - 1 in 44 chance, as it is a tetraploid. This paper claims the plant breeds true. As an undergrad long ago I wrote a paper about the ploidy of Rhododendron and the breeders built large greenhouses to grow out enough to get the fl pattern they wanted...

Dan

Aesculus ÃÂ carnea does breed true - it is an autopolyploid, so in effect behaves as a true species. The parent species are both diploid, as were the original hybrid plants, but at some point early on in the development of the hybrid (probably by 1896), it became a tetraploid. There's quite a lengthy explanation of it in Bean's Trees & Shrubs Hardy in the British Isles (1976 edition).

Resin

"Aesculus ÃÂ carnea does breed true..."

Can you clarify that statement? It sounds like you are saying that the progeny of Aesculus ÃÂ carnea is the exact same as the parent, but I'm thinking that you are really saying that the hybrid species can produce offspring that are genetically viable as Aesculus ÃÂ carnea (not clones of the parent). In other words, I equate "breed true" as "produces clone (or near clone, as is common amoung some annual cultivars) offspring", but I don't think that is what you are trying to say. Hope that makes sense.

I'm a bit unclear on that as well, as I'm picturing needing a large bench to grow out enough to ensure you get the trait you want...

Dan

O'Neills red is an interspecific hybrid of A. pavia and A. hippocanastum. You may get some small deviation from the parent tree, but they are fertile. For O'neal's the propagation is normally done by seed. So, if you can germinate them successfully you can expect like offspring and ornamental quality. I checked this out and found validation from the University of Florida. Linked below. Good luck.

Here is a link that might be useful: O'neal's red

Calliope,

Your link seems to me to suggest that Aesculus x carnea (not 'O'Neil's Red') comes true from seed (which is what I think Resin was saying). I think we are right back where we were, unless you have something else.

Perhaps, and I am not sure on that. But if A. carnea are typically done by seed, and they listed several cultivars, it implies it. I do A. pavia by seed and have numerous buckeye and chestnuts on site and I'm sure some are hussy enough they cohabitate, lol, and I have seen very little variance in all the seed-grown buckeyes I've produced. The key difference in the O'Neal's is the double bloom, no? No matter anyway because the OP wants a red bloom. I can guarantee it will be.

Ken,
If you think you'd be happy with flowers almost as red or almost as large, go with the seedlings. Who knows, maybe you'll get 'Ken's Improved O'Neill'. If you want 'O'Neills Red', I think you'll have to go shopping.

I love a question where all the academics weigh in.

I think we are right back where we were, unless you have something else.

No, at first 'we' didn't think this hybrid would come true, then Resin and calliope set us straight (thank you!).

I agree that there will be seedling variation but I suspect ken just wants the same-ish red or better & isn't looking to wholesale the parent.

Dan

I'm not an academic. I am a nurseryman and have been one for twenty three years and I grow buckeyes. The OP wants a red blooming tree. It will definitely be a red blooming tree. That's all he/she asked about and it's been answered.

"No, at first 'we' didn't think this hybrid would come true, then Resin and calliope set us straight..."

Really, I must have missed something because I don't see the first shred of proof of this (if you are talking about the cultivar mentioned in the original thread). I wish Resin would chime back in, because I'm wondering exactly what he meant. Dan, if you see something that says Aesculus 'O'Neills Red' comes true from seed (produces 'O'Neills Red'), let us know!
_________________________________________________

"I'm not an academic..."

I'm not either, but I play one on Gardenweb. LOL

Not exactly sure what you want to know - I could type in what it says in Bean, but it's about 20 lines of text, rather tedious to copy out . . . I'll see if I can get it scanned with text recognition, later.

Resin

Oh my Calliope, I meant no offense at all. I can see why my remark could be interpreted as edgy.

First, "academic" does not mean "booklearning and no practical experience." to me. I bet my new Butterflies magnolia that you read everything you get your hands on about your trade. That you compare reviews and digest scientific articles as well as trade literature.

I appreciate when people with a lot of experience and knowledge acquired from years of gardening and reading weigh in. It exposes me to a different level of discourse and information than is generally available in ordinary gardenweb discussions.

Then there is the benefit of the personal voice that shines through every discussion. Each gardener and gardenwebber has a unique way of making observations, teaching, correcting, defending his or her point of view.

I don't think most of us think about what our writing says about us when we send off something to GW. But everytime I have been misunderstood or misinterpreted I sure think about it. And that after 1100 pm is should keep my finger off the damned SEND key

Have I made the meaning of my hasty comment clearer?

Marie

I don't want to waste space being too apologetic.

Resin,

All I'm wondering is if your comments were meant to mean...

a) Aesculus x carnea crossed with Aesculus x carnea produces Aesculus x carnea

or

b) Aesculus 'O'Neills Red' crossed with Aesculus 'O'Neills Red' produces Aesculus 'O'Neills Red'.

I'm thinking your meant "a", but I'm a little confused because of the wording.

Also, while your at it, if the answer is "a", do you know if Aesculus 'O'Neills Red' is normally a grafted plant?

ok peeps.. do we need a time out ... lol ...

the title asks about actually getting an O'neills ... which would preferable ..

but i did widen the scope of the issue by asking if it would be close enough that i would be happy ...

so i did get answers all around ...

what really irritates me.. is that the kids carry the nuts around.. planting them where ever they lose focus on whatever they are doing ..

and for the last 5 years.. i have just been killing them when i see them ... why..oh why.. didnt i ask this question long ago ...

i will plant it.. and hope that in god knows how many years.. that i can remember to report back on the result ...

thanks to all ... you are inspirational in the depth of your knowledge .... and of course.. your passion.. that you would all start arguing about it.. lol ...

ken

Hi Brandon - yep, it's 'a', not 'b'. The named cultivar would have to be grafted.

Resin

Thanks Resin!

Do not let the nuts dry out very long before getting them planted. I have best results from harvesting them just as the husks start to split and planting immediately. They're at risk as well for theft from rodents. I usually hedge my bets on Ohio Buckeye by starting some in pots with wire over them, and burying some immediately outside into soft soil and leaf litter. I don't have to stratify A. pavia, and start them in the g'house in sand flats with 100% success rate........but I suspect A. carnea will need to be cold treated.

I don't know if you could use any of the parental stock like A. pavia on which to graft but I suspect that chip or whip grafts would be successful if you can get compatible rootstock. If you could get mama tree to hang in there a couple years, you'd have scion stock or buds handy for your new seed-started rootstock.

Idabean..........no, I didn't take offense at your comments. I think I took it like you meant it. I like it too when the whole peanut gallery chimes in with their thoughts on a subject. Horse chestnuts and buckeyes just happen to be one of my passions and some years I start upwards of a hundred trees. Some of my babies are all over this county, I suspect.

Yep I'm pretty stoked Calliope on some Aesculus turbinata var. pubescens I'm stratifying right now until the greenhouse can be turned on in mid-Feb or until any radicals may emerge.

I haven't dealt a lot with Buckeye/Horsechestnut but... the plan is to winter sow em in pots. This is the only Horsechestnut species I'm growing.

You definitely are right about wire-caging pots (hardware cloth should be used). Here's a photo of how oaks are grown... this fella has a heated "cool greenhouse" ...I think the temps are probably at 35-40F all winter. He keeps his oak seeds in the fridge until the radicals emerge and when they get to be about 3" long, he pinches off the bottom 1/3 and then plants them in pots that are carried over in his semi-heated greenhouse. The hardware cloth stays on all growing season and is easily-lifted off after the saplings drop their leaves the following autumn.
{{gwi:450229}}

Any info about Aesculus turbinata's germination... would be appreciated.

Dax

thanks,Calliope
Marie

the leaves have fallen off... its nuts are still hanging ...

can i harvest them ... before the dogs and the squirrels get them???

ken

Ken - I have collected A. flava (Yellow Buckeye) seeds off the ground and had them sprout with near 100% success the following spring, but they were sitting in moist dirt and leaf litter, so hadn't dried out.

As far as harvesting right off the tree, I'd think if they come off rather easily, like with a knock or a quick shake, they're probably OK to harvest.

The A. flava in my neighborhood is dropping nuts like crazy now, and its leaves are in full fall color and falling as well, but I'm not sure if x carnea typically matures them later - especially in MI since it probably bloomed later than it would have here anyway.

This post was edited by hairmetal4ever on Wed, Oct 22, 14 at 9:37

thx...

leaves gone.. very hard frost last night.. i will check them often ...

last time i checked.. they were pretty tight on the tree ...

i just have to beat those dogs to them... but dont want to harvest them if not mature ...

thx again

ken

I've seen the claims that seedlings of A.x carnea come true... but I grew out seedlings from buckeyes collected from one in a local city park - no idea if it was Briottii or Ft. McNair - planted one in my side yard. Produces white flowers, like A. hippocastanum - though less showy.
So...I'm slowly reworking it to a good red/pink-flowered form.