This is a nutrient loss for normally deciduous plants.
The roses have faced the recent rain and cold with considerable aplomb. I see that some of the tender red new growth on the Teas, Polyanthas, etc, has wilted; but the green growth is still robust. The roses that tend to be evergreen are in full leaf, and 'Sanguinea' and 'Aloha' (IS 'Aloha' made of plastic??) are even managing to bloom. 'Fantin-Latour' is perfectly green and fresh, magnificently healthy. No one knows what is the ancestry of this rose, which has been classed among the Centifolias, I'm not sure why. Recent thinking appears to be that it's a China hybrid of some sort, possiblly developed as a rootstock. The China ancestry might explain its reluctance to drop its leaves. Among the normally deciduous roses, there's a variety of reactions, some coloring and dropping their leaves, others keeping them, like the bewildered trees. But taking the garden as a whole, it's an inspiring sight.
Melissa

Melissa I so enjoy your posts. I'v \e never been to your part of the world, but readung your posts I sure feel as though I had.Here in Western Washington, we had the driest summer ever. 200+ acre brush fire some 4 miles from my home. The pastures are only now recovering. The autumn has been its usual rain then followed bby days of clouds. No real storms. Occasionally we have gotten some sun. I call these "Pastel Days". Like you my garden phillosophy is slow as she goes. No fertilizer other than aged and fresh horse poops. Watering in the summer only when absolutely necessary. Which is funny since we pay only a flat fee annually for water no matter how much we use.
This summer the blueberry bushes and the rugosa roses suffered from my limited hand with the watering.
Mild weather thus far. Most of the rose bushes still have green leaves; but the rose buds aree frozen in time and have stopped growing.
We bought new winter coats for the horses as they outgrew last years coats. I only put the coats on when the temp is below 32-30 degrees during the day. So far the coats are in plastic bags. Thats probably the key...buy winter coats...no winter.
I remember you once lived in this area so I thought you might enjoy hearing how things are going here now I wonder if this is Global Warming...probably not as we had two back to back freezing cold early winters.
Jeannie

I wholeheartedly agree with the thesis statement - that is, that time is probably the most significant factor in how good a rose looks.
I try not to be brutally frank here, because anything stated that way brings out the politeness police, and so I've hinted before about the significant difference between gardeners and all the others - exhibitors, those that grow for the vase, those in the trade, etc., for examples. That difference is that gardeners grow roses to be part of the garden/garden landscape. They consider the ultimate height and spread when planting and plant to allow for and accommodate maturity. And then they wait years. Now the waiting patiently part is not always accurate; it may be more accurate to say that they wait with discipline.
I noticed a long while ago that the photos on HMF are often of young plants and I realized that was one reason we weren't seeing many full bush photos there.
There are many photo sets on HMF that support the time argument by documenting early flowering years and subsequent ones. In some cases the contrast is drastic. This is rarely discussed, but a worthy subject.
Here on these forums, folks often report on their initial impression of a rose in its first year. Some even rant and lambast early performance AS IF the rose were some well-paid contractor whose work was shoddy. I exercise disciplined patience with plants, but I find it increasingly difficult to have any patience with those kinds of posts. The worst part is not that posts of that sort have little or no value; it is that these posts potentially malign a rose that might not deserve it. And the scary part is that I think that there are organizations that teach this behavior and have for many a year. The damage done by such "authorities" may be irreversible because of the enduring nature of ideas.
Not to mention the reinforcement of those ideas here: GARDEN web.
In sum, such commentary reflects less poorly upon the rose in the eyes of a plant person than upon the individual growing it.

Sandandsun - I agree completely, and you put it so well! As Melissa points out with her now mature rose bushes planted in 2005, it can take several years for roses to grow into their glory. Patience is not only virtue, it is a necessity.

I also have NO patience with those such as my local ARS affiliated rose society - they "shovel prune" HALF of the roses in their small rose garden each year, and replace them with the "exciting" new introductions. None of their roses ever get a chance to mature.

We all need to help newbies - the Lord knows, I am still a newbie about many things, but when I read a post one here about some rose or another that is only 6 months or a year old, and the poster plans to dig it up and discard it because it is not living up to their expectations, I have to take a really deep breath prior to trying to explain why they should not.

Jackie

I bite my keyboard - I mean my tongue.
The frequency at which it occurs, and moreover the tenacity and ferocity of its presentation when I read it, has become increasingly unbearable.
Some folks should ONLY grow Knock-Outs. Knock-Outs are designed for that market. They are the closest thing to instant gratification that exists in the world of roses. And I truly believe that the market is still less than saturated.
In the case of the society I could only speculate. Maybe they have very limited space? Or they believe that they must function as a "test garden" without understanding what that actually involves. (That's me biting my keyboard).
I'm so glad that someone feels that I have been sufficiently tactful. In future when I'm seething with commentary, I will try to remember to reference this thread. There truly is no reason to have to input it repeatedly. Maybe if enough of those posts get pointed to this thread, some effect will become evident?

This post was edited by sandandsun on Tue, Jan 8, 13 at 0:34

Yowie..so good to hear others who look at life as I do. We live 1/4 mile from South Puget Sound within the Oakland Bay watershed. Runoff from excessive fertilizing is incredibly damaging to the Sound. My neighgbor works for Taylor Shellfish. He really grits his teeth when he hears about people in the ARs who recommend applying the blue stuff Miracle Grow every week to 10 days to improve the bloom display. The oysters cringe more than he does.
We actually walk the pastures to pick-up poops and put in the compost pile, rain or shine. I know that's over the top.
Thanks for letting me squawk.
Jeeannie
ps. I dont like to toot my own horn, but I am a certified master gardener. The program is nationwide. They are available to answer questions aand provide direction .One of their stated missions is to do no harm.

I agree. Patience is a virtue in gardening. I think some people should grow Knockout to begin with. Perhaps it will give them confidence to go on and grow with their gardening experience.

I am truly enjoying this discussion regarding the patience needed in growing roses. I, myself, didn't know in the early years of rose growing that old garden roses take years to develop and mature, although the folks at A.R.E. did share that information with me when I purchased my first OGR. I guess there was a little bit of incredulity in me because the only roses I had been exposed to in my youth were the hybrid teas offered by Jackson and Perkins that my mom ordered each year. Those roses greened up and grew quickly, were pruned every February, and grew right back to their original size by the end of the summer. Well, now there is NO doubt in my mind that time is the best thing that we can provide an OGR. They are so often ugly ducklings that eventually become the beauties we want them to be. The trick is to not discard these ugly ducklings too quickly. I also found that fertilizing and pruning them to death is not helpful in getting them to their awesome maturity.
Molly

I freely but with some shame admit to being one of the offenders, and in earlier days on a large scale. Some of the roses that I discarded could not stand the concentrated heat here, but who's to say they might not have toughened up in future years. Harlow Carr and Angels Camp Tea are two such examples. Also Janet, which I should have moved instead of discarding. I have no such regret for General Tartas and Monsieur Tillier, which crisped in the heat, because I came to learn that I greatly prefer roses on the cool end of the pink spectrum for my garden. A recent rose I discarded, The Dark Lady, would probably anger some since it was very healthy, with a great root system, leaves and flowers. However, it was bright red instead of more on the purplish side, and I found the rose to be much too modern-looking for my taste. The Duchess of Albany, a sport of La France, was placed in her spot, and I'm infinitely happier. More and more I respond to roses that look antique, whether of recent or older vintage. Overall, though, the true regrets are not huge in number since color is terribly important to me, and quite a few didn't make the cut for that reason, and I feel no guilt, especially since a good number found new, more appreciative homes. Nevertheless, the basic premise of giving a rose a chance to mature, assuming there are no aesthetic considerations, is an extremely sound one. I've been nursing a small twig of Chaucer, a side shoot of a very poor specimen I was sent where the one main cane died, for well over a year now even though it's barely grown at all. Maybe that's veering too far in the other direction but who can say? It may surprise me yet. In my case the use of precious water is also an important consideration. I think ultimately it still must be the gardener's choice, since factors may enter into the decision to discard a rose that the forum is not aware of. We all grow roses for different reasons and so our reasons for discarding one will also be different, and perhaps not always understandable to others. As long as I can justify that reason to myself (which in retrospect in some instances is not the case), I'm content.

Ingrid

well hey, the main reason I do not discard stuff willy-nilly is because I am a cheapskate. I am not impatient but I am avid for knowledge and mostly, the best way to get it is to keep on trying things out. For sure, it takes a long time for shrubs and trees to reveal their full potential and I feel these years laying heavily - so many things to find out, to experiment with, to learn.....and truly, without sounding desperately arrogant, there is very little to learn from many books and magazines. They deal in the unversal while I want to know specifics. There is often an agenda - to push this or that new fad or whim, while I want to learn techniques and skills through hands-on experience. And I need to know what works for ME, in MY garden, in my area, with my budgets, philosophy and style
Also, it may take a long time for a plant to reach maturity but I know whether the plant is going to be good in my garden in a fraction of a full growth cycle. I am not building a garden which will ever be completed - I am gardening, evolving, learning, changing. I want to be flexible, dynamic and open to other ideas....and in order for this to happen, we take risks, we make mistakes, we learn. And also, I am barely breaking the surface of gardening knowledge when I want to roam deep and far - how many more summers will I have, how many more plants do I want to sow, plant, taste, feel, smell?
So no, although I rarely discard a plant for any aesthetic reason, I would never, ever disparage anyone who does - these brave souls are often the innovators, the strivers, the boundary-pushers, not just sheeple following the latest must-have lifestyle accessories. Cut them a break, SandandSun. I have been sniffy and even a bit supercilious myself (not an attractive trait of mine) but curiosity is a useful trait, I think.

Perhaps it could be said that we grow patience as gardeners if we allow ourselves to do so. Most of us first come to gardening with great plans and hopes of transforming a small piece of the earth. It takes some trial and error to develop a long perspective. To some it never comes. To those of us for whom it does, it it one of the many gifts of becoming a gardener.

Recently I have been planting ornamental trees in the bare area outside my fence. I hope to live long enough to see them make a significant presence in the landscape. I will never see their maturity.

Rosefolly

Thats ok look at what we leave behind for others to love.
JULIA

I'm so relieved to read Melissa's post. I grow my roses the same way - with toughlove. Amazingly, I have lost very few. And now the rewards are coming after years in the ground (2006 was my big planting year). During those first few years I was sure I was doing something wrong. Most of my roses are teas, chinas, noisettes, locally discovered HPs with "" names and other foundies, received as bands from Vintage or rooted cuttings from fellow OGR lovers, based on recommendations from local experts like Jeri. Like our fruit trees, they take time to mature, but when they come into their own in the garden they're proud, tough and beautiful survivors.

I want to add that my comments are on the subject in general and not in reference to any specific post - or I would have posted them in a specific thread rather than in this thread with its related general subject.

Also, I read and post on this and the main Rose Forum. I chose to post here since OGRs are mostly available own root, and the evidence of experience more likely resided in this forum.

I could agree with the idea that one could have early indication of a plant's potential for success in one's garden, but not that one could know whether a plant is going to be good in one's garden in a fraction of a full growth cycle. That is my point - that plants will not demonstrate their full potential until after they have become established.

I completely agree that personal preference is nonnegotiable, but I don't see that this truth detracts at all from my point. I retreat on my statements not a bit.

rosefolly:

"To some it never comes." - So very true.

I hope very much that your personal prognostication will not be accurate or even nearly so.

We do perforce a lot of planting for future generations, as I'm in my mid fifties and my husband is in his late seventies. We started our current large and ambitious garden eleven years ago, at an age when a lot of gardeners are beginning to retrench. Five or six years ago we planted a five foot tall cedar of Lebanon, a variety which when it reaches maturity is about the most magnificent tree you can grow in this part of the world. Because of our dry summers, plus a not overly friendly environment, it has been growing at a rate of about 2"-3" a year, sturdy as anything of course, and my husband is going to have to attain a very ripe old age if he's to live to see this tree even reach a thriving adolescence. (Once it does reach maturity, it's going to shade out that entire section of the garden, which will be have to be redesigned around it--it's a very broad-spreading tree. But it will be worth it.) This winter DH has been planting seedling oaks in the hope that they'll keep our garden from sliding down to the bottom of the valley, with our house following. He'll have to live to be the oldest man in the world to see these oaks as young trees. DH is not designed by nature to plant for future generations, he wants results NOW. Years of this strategy not working, and some positive results obtained planting baby trees and shrubs that did grow--we have a six foot tall yew hedge that started as 6" plants--have somewhat tempered his natural impatience. In fact, DH, who started out helping me in the garden for my sake, not the plants', and whose taste in plants ran to flowers, and the more, the bigger, the gaudier, the better, has actually admitted recently to a fondness for watching things grow even when there's not a bloom in sight. So, though he got off to a late start, he looks good to be spending the last part of his life growing things and admiring his plant babies in various stages of development.
Jeannie, I saw and appreciated your message when I first started this thread, but then it seemed to drop off a cliff and I was reluctant to resuscitate it just to say as much to you. So I'm saying thanks now for your kind words. I hear it's cold up your way; I don't know about how much precipitation you all are getting.
Melissa

well, a tea rose takes around 6 or 7 years to reach maturity in our climate (UK) and I sure know that after a season or two it is going to be a goodie or a disaster. I guess the 'fraction of a growing cycle' was not terribly clear ( a couple of seasons) but generally, a plant which is growing poorly usually reveals its discontents fairly early on - whether I choose to attempt to rectify this (and I am less inclined to labour over iffy plants these days) or give it away and move on often depends on the initial investment - a plant I bought, often on a whim, has considerably less emotional significance than a plant nurtured from a seedling...
I once grew trilliums from seed - 5 years in pots and after one year in the ground, disastrous. I keep seed trays for three+ years but I recognise a duffer a lot faster than I used to.....and, after many discards, I generally have a good idea what the problems might be.
Melissa, I will be sowing tree seeds for my wood, expecting my great grandchildren may benefit from my choices, so yeah, I can do long term too....but sometimes, I just want an immediate hit of flower.

Oh, Suzy, so do I. Of course over the years I've developed a habit of putting many plants in the ground and largely forgetting them, just watering and weeding them if needed, but not investing much emotion in them while they're puny. A hundred seedling oaks are important, but not exciting. Ditto for many young roses once they're in the ground and starting their task of growing. It's a different story once they begin to flower.
Just at the moment the sky is gray, I've had a cold for ten days, and the garden is in the middle of its messy winter homeliness. It's hard to get really excited about anything. Possibly I'll be less cool, less calm, when conditions improve. The next nifty thing coming along is the flowering of the hellebores following by the sarcococcas. Oh, and Berberis darwinii has buds. But a return to health and blue skies will be mighty welcome. We've planted several lilacs and a couple of Italian cypresses but the future in which I'll be enjoying them seems remote.

Melissa, in regard to the cypresses you mentioned, we have two that flank the top of the driveway. We planted them about five years ago and they're now at least 12 feet tall, and they started out as one-gallon plants. They've never received any supplemental water after the first year, but by now they most definitely make a statement in the landscape. Your winters are colder and I don't know whether that would affect growth, but I have the feeling that you'll be enjoying yours sooner than you think.

Ingrid

Melissa, here's a Christopher Lloyd quote. "Never take the 'I shan't see it' attitude." It's clear that you and DH know that instinctively. Or maybe you've already read "The Adventurous Gardener".

For the sake of newcomers here I want to say that no one on this forum pulls out roses willy nilly in their first year - except I did once in a case of pure beginner's stupidity. And that is my point. Judging some as non-gardeners for a beginner's error or even for finding themselves at a stage in life where they don't want to invest a lot of time in a plant that experience shows will be displeasing just doesn't sit well. I want to assure beginners that while we try to strongly encourage them to stick it out with their plants and not be hasty, we do not condemn or belittle those who have an impulsive moment as most of us imperfect gardeners have had - early on or even recently. I also don't think we badmouth roses here. We state results in our gardens. We also stress that all gardening is local, i.e., don't make plant judgments, pro or con, based on a dissimilar gardening location. Maybe I'm being super touchy, but I don't want people to feel reluctant to share their garden thoughts and activities because they might be judged poorly. I'm happy to say that we mostly accept everyone gently and without condemnation here, and we also enjoy each other's idiosyncrasies.

Personally, I have recently given away several roses for cause, but I don't plan on sharing the names. On the one hand I don't want to discourage others from trying them, but on the other hand people are looking for info on roses here. Oh, well, some of my reasoning is sentimentality. I don't want to say anything bad about a rose I loved for over 3 years, and also if I didn't love them, I don't want everyone to know how ugly I can get toward a rose that failed me.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Nicely said Sherry.
Daisy

Sherry,
Didn't I encounter something like this: "Garden as though you were going to live another eighty years"? That's what it is for me. If anything can pull me forward into the future as I get older, keep me going year after year, it will be my plants.
Ingrid,
Thanks for the encouraging words. In fact, that was the weather and my cold speaking and not an objective assessment of the situation. We've been planting Italian cypresses in the garden for several years now and have discovered that in our situation, as in yours, they grow very well, and with no summer water or particular care. Yours sound like they're a handsome addition to your garden. Italian cypresses are one of those plants that are both aristocratic and formal, and at the same time perfectly at home in semi-wild surroundings, which I gather is perfect for your garden. I'm planning to experiment with one or perhaps both these newly planted trees: keeping them topped at about 6' so that they function as tall broadly columnar shrubs. A friend in central Italy assures me that it can be done, though no one treats them that way here.

The opening sentence of this thread:
"As I was walking up the Rose Road yesterday, I cast a glance at 'Sharifa Asma'..."

I think it needs to be pointed out that the size of our gardens may have a lot to do with how we need to garden and what we need from our plants. Maybe if your garden is big enough to have a "Rose Road" you might be missing some of the issues involved in gardening something closer to postage stamp size.

I've gardened a tiny plot and now I have 40 acres. It is a completely different mindset. Sicking something in the ground and giving it some benign neglect for a few years is nothing for me now. When I had a small garden every square foot of dirt had to work for me. There are limited focal points and tighter design restrictions and it's harder to not notice something languishing in the middle of your beds--or maybe your only bed.

"The right rose for the right place" may mean that a rose that takes years to establish is the wrong rose for you and wrong rose for the limited space you have available to garden in. Certainly no shame is figuring that out and doing something about it.

Oh yeah, for those of us who get a winter, the plant appearance calendar is the only thing that gets us through. Those long days of summer seem a distant memory - it is a case of staying out as long as my feet can bear it (I swear, I am going to try battery feet warmers, despite the ridiculous costs). Garden work is mainly raking out brownly wilted leafage and the usual, endless weeding. The vegetable beds are easy - friable loamy soil that is easily tossed about with a flick of the fork but the perennials and such, require grubbing around with pointy sticks. Dandelions and hateful centranthus have joined mallows and couch grass on the rabid list - this horrid quartet insinuate themselves into the very centres of beloved miscanthus, asters and heleniums. A few years ago, I completely dug everything out, separating skeins of rhizomatous rootings - a long, cold and bloody task which worked for about 3 months till April. Gave up. Unnatural attrition and resigned neglect has seen off a number of iffy specimens and pale loiterers (callistemon, various salvias, even a couple of Phlox) leaving a Darwinian self-selected bunch of thug types which either ramp to enormous heights in about 3 weeks - fennel, rudbeckias, panicums or cover the ground in clumps of weed-blocking plantage (so goes the theory, ha!) such as heleniums, asters, monarda. I can generally get on top of it because it is a late starter on the plot. Nothing much happens in this patch till May but it really takes off with tanacetum, alstroemerias, verbascum, oriental poppies and a whole bunch of hardy annuals - red flax, Love-in-the mist, calendula, daylily leaves and tree paeonies. overlooked and by a huge freestanding R.moyessi. Not a subtle and refined space but moyessi holds the whole thing in equilibrium - deep red blooms in May/June and scarlet bottle-shaped heps in autumn - top rose. Once the late spring show is over, I wander off to other beds, pretty much ignoring it until the hooligans push and barge. It does look pretty good - nothing needs staking or falls over and a huge canopy of compositae types (and butterflies) have a moment in the sun. It then looks terrible. All those pictures of hoarfrost on foliage and seedheads are rubbish - what I get is a massive haystack of tough and sodden herbage which laughs at my enormous strimmer and is home to a zillion slugs. Still, this is my first couple of days since the Xmas couch-fest (apart from a bit of gentle seed-sowing) so obviously, I am rambling more than usual.....

subk3,
You make an interesting point; there may be a good deal of truth in it. Back when I had a sixth of an acre to garden on, not two acres, it seems to me I gardened quite a lot like I garden now, but that's still not postage stamp sized and it's been a while. It's worth thinking about.
Suzy,
My garden is Darwinian, and it relies heavily on shrubs and subshrubs because they are what are sturdy enough to compete with the grass and weeds. The woods in their leafless winter nudity are very dignified compared with the mess of the garden. I keep hoping that the various trees and shrubs in the garden are going to grow to the point of discouraging the grass, but we have a long way to go. So far the garden has progressed only from thin grass to thick grass.
I'll feel a lot better about everything once my cold goes away and the weather improves enough that I can get outside and work. Meanwhile the plant shopping list for next fall grows. Right now my mind is full of evergreen shrubs (sarcococca, box, mahonia, epimedium,..).
Melissa

This thread has morphed into so many different point of views, And each is valid. Sure has opened my eyes.
Gardening for the future: When I was in my 30's I didn't plant fruit trees as I expected to move...I didn't. Same thought in my 40's. Last year at the ripe ol' age of 64 planted a dozen fruit trees. Plan to add a couple more from Green Mantle this spring.
Melissa..this winter has been mild but rainey here in Arcadia. We got about 4" of snow on Christmas morning. I believe it was the first Christmas snowfall in decades. North west of me during the last week of November they got hammered with snow..Union, Hood Canal area. I cannot recall such different weather patterns which exists here in close proximity.
Like everyone I cant wait for spring. This evening I put the finishing touches on a few seed orders. Hurry Spring.
Jeannie

Jeannie, you will actually get fruit from your fruit trees in two to four years, depending on what kind of rootstock they are grafted onto. Well worth planting at any stage of life.

Now lately I have been planting native oak trees. If I live 30 more years (I'm hoping for 40!) I will still never see them at maturity. but it will have been worth it, my gift to the future.

And own-root roses well suited to their climate can also live a very long time. Who knows? Some of my roses may live that same 30 (or 40) years. Even longer if they are not dug up. Look at Jackie's garden.

Rosefolly the hopeful

Neat thread!

I'm in the "plants are pets" pool. When I first started visiting GW & read the phrase "shovel prune" I thought it meant what is locally done to wisterias that are vigorously growing but are shy-bloomers, i.e. take a sharp-shooter shovel & spade a circle around the plant to shock it into blooming.

Imagine my surprise when I realized what the term meant on the rose forum--Eeeek!

That said, I understand the "life is too short to waste on a poor choice/or poor performer" attitude though I personally have never shovel pruned anything. Have dug a few up to give to someone else that wanted them.

Also have moved around too many times to enjoy the maturity of the many plants my family labored to plant over the years. Last place we left, we had lived in the longest & I hear from friends that the new guys ripped out several decades of gingers, azaleas & some wonderful tropicals that we (& the guy before us) had planted. Oh, well--I knew that could happen & had invited everyone I knew to dig out whatever they wanted beforehand. AND I had kept about 10 yrs worth of roses in POTS, so they could go with the move.

Grew mostly own-root OGRs & they take a long time to mature in that area--& never matured to the huge sizes that CA posters report. Not only did flower appearance improve each season, but so did scent & disease resistance. I enjoyed watching them 'grow-up'.

I planted some OGRs for a pal in centralTX who knew nothing about them. He was very willing to take my advice, which was: "water them & KEEP YOUR HANDS (& CLIPPERS) OFF OF THEM FOR AT LEAST 3 YRS. THEY WILL LOOK LIKE HELL, BUT LEAVE THEM ALONE & THE 'UGLY DUCKLINGS' WILL BECOME SWANS".

They are so gorgeous now--huge bushy plants covered in flowers (most were HMs), about 12 yrs old--I'm jealous as heck!

If money was no object, I'd haul in tons of good rose soil here & bank it into raised beds with drip watering installed for (more)immediate gratification. Enjoy reading about all your gardens & gardening philosophies:)

Bluegirl, I love your post!! You've just affirmed my life! Must be nice never to have sp'd a rose. I haven't done it in a long time - sort of like becoming a virgin again.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Gee, thanks, Sherry! I love your webpage :)

Thanks, bluegirl! I'm with you on this one: plants are living beings and shovel pruning (a pretty insulting euphemism, I agree) or pruning (amputation)for no good reason seem insensitive to the rest of nature's right to exist. I just came from a public rose garden where perfectly healthy roses were ripped out and instead of being offered for adoption to local rose club members were chipped to death and sent to the greenwaste dump. People still don't seem to understand that plants are alive!

Ugh, that is sickening. Rose lovers would have done the labor for free & adopted the plants. That strikes me as wasteful & frankly, CRUEL. A church in my area did the same thing to a huge memorial rose bed that I had regularly weeded & trimmed (for free, & it wasn't even my church--just volunteered because I enjoyed driving past the beautiful garden).
Then one day I drive by & every dang rose is gone--gee thanks for letting me know, folks. I'm sure the people who donated memorial roses felt the same.

I don't know why people think roses and other plants aren't alive, but just "dead" material for us to manage. We seem to treat the whole of nature this way - as just "resources" for us to use and dispose of as we wish. And with the current environmental situation, we see where this attitude has got us!
So much landscaping is what I call "exterior decorating," as if plants were as dead as couches or chairs, to be removed or replaced at our whim, with no care for their right to exist.