I don't like that strident red color that the knockouts are... kind of jars my eyes. But others really seem to dig it and they are selling a lot.

I like the austin english roses just because honestly they are the best performing roses in my garden, for years now. They just keep going with no special care through our nasty cold winters. I ignore them, rarely fertilize them. They like the midwest, they are still blooming in mid-october and it has not been above like 60 for the past 3 weeks here.

I also have once blooming antiques - and really love those too.

I won't chase yah with any type of sharp object at all I like your self have found a certain appericitaion to the REAL antiques and rares I was somewhat not impressed with a certain chain resturant thew in some Knock Outs there all over the place in the areas here and look very scarly and gruff what we realy need is a nice deer or two to give em all a triming to the root. The Knock Outs are sold for cheap cheap cheap at Depots and Lowes

David Autins getting over worked Well lets just say the big guy store that seels for less was selling em by the 100s at 11.99 a gallon pot and that was just one Wall Mart. It's that over used phrase of disease hardy, disease tollerant that flood these markets.

I did some reading on how to find some rare and old to antique roses and I figure we got a few hot spots around here in which I am sure to fond some. I hope to find there names now and get at least three different ones from cuttings.

Now that I think about it I'll lend you my prunners and loppers. Hope you like Fiskers.

I have experimented with many kinds of roses. OGRs (Old Garden Roses) do not repeat very well and pests attack the buds that they do produce. The best repeating OGR is Rose de Rescht.
Many Austins have died on me. Try Evelyn.

Many Buck roses have also died on me. Quietness is good.

I also grow Generosa roses and they are a mixed lot. Madame Paule Masad and Jardin de Viels Maison did well their first summer but they have not been through a Chicago winter yet. Francis Blaise died and Florence Delatre is pathetic.

I also have a few Delbards. Madame Figaro died over the winter. Madame Bovary survived the winter. It is tall, bristling with thorns and produces occasional baby powder smelling blooms. I am not sure they are worth the extra money.

Mary Daly is an unimpressive polyantha.

If you find OGRs that bloom better than Rose de Rescht and survive the winter in zone 5, let me know. And as Henny Youngman would say, take my Baronne Prevost, please!

Yo KG,

There are precious few things worse than a stalker but one of those things definitely is a stalker with her snoot in the air ;-) First it's what is and isn't beautiful in an HT, what a crock full of critique! Do you have a license for that ? Beauty always lies in the eyes of the beholder and yet here you are with but another rant, this time against all things Austin. You really do need to get out more :-)

Jeri,

What Austins have you found that do well in z24, I have a Bishop's Castle in a pot that is doing great and a Pat Austin in the ground that is doing so so.

Yo, my favorite Stalkee, LOL! I conveniently "forgot" that my favorite Stalkee has a kablooming Kaboozle of gorgeous Austins! LOL! Isn't it hilarious how easily I forget!

Yes, I do know that Austins are "gorgeous" flowers, but what I hate is how they overtake the antique world so that people forget the special beauty of "true antiques". To me Austins belong in the hybrid tea class. And are no better than the over-hyped sculpted hybrid tea "perfection" form. Beautiful flowers-both the hybrid tea and the Austins, but I still don't believe that Austins should be classified as "antiques". They're a modern rose to me! and should stay that way. The whole growing attitude of Austin from what I've read from other threads are that they are a highly commercial hybridizer that very jealously guards how they sell as well. I say it's time to support the underdogs, LOL!

Also what I find hilarious is that the English are as guilty of hyping their Austins as the U.S. is guilty of hyping their hybrid teas.

Hmmm, Predfern that is a very interesting observation about the rebloom. Antique Rose-ers other than Austin-ers, speak up. Any recommendation, photos to show off, anything? For example, Krista showed me a photo of her very lovely Stanwell Perpetual which is fragrant and repeats well and is hardy! She is in Zone 5, New York. Again, it'd be wonderful to have some "beautiful underdogs showcased".

Boxofrox, again, pardon my snootiness, but it's the snootiness for the underdog-the "undiscovered" antique roses. And yes, I still do love your Abraham Darbys to the MAX. I just want the other unheard of roses to remain in existence and hope that we will have some champion truly antique-ers to share their growing experiences....Boxofrox you have my permission to prune my snootiness with a pair of pruning scissors, LOL!

Now, knockout, hahaha! that is my truly most hated roses of all. I call it the Walmart of roses, LOL! but we won't go there. I'm just thinking that Austin just needs to rename itself. It is not an antique rose, in my very un-humble opinion, LOL!

I can't think of a rose I have met that I didn't like ... my collection here represents all the classes (I think) and there are good things and bad things about all of them.

My once-blooming OGRs are beautiful shrubs. They're covered in flowers in the late spring and early summer, and they provide a healthy green background for the rest of the year. Even visitors who poo-poo once bloomers stand in awe at the size and health of Banshee. It's a beauty. I'd better avoid the subject of Rosa Mundi or The Bishop, because I'd be here for days.

The Wichuriana ramblers are another once-blooming choice that can add a lot to most any garden. There's not much that can compare to Leontine Gervais or Alberic Barbier or Aviateur Bleriot in full bloom. They are healthy and are almost carefree, except for a bit of training now and then.

For rebloomers, the absolute most reliable bloomers in my garden are the Polyanthas (I won't suggest Chinas or Teas, since you're in Zone 5) Every day in season, there are flowers somewhere on almost every Poly in the garden. Right now, all of them are in full bloom for fall ... and they're really strutting their stuff. Would the multiflora-based Polyanthas like La Marne or Echo do well in your zone? How about Marie Pavie or Cecile Brunner?

So you can see that I'm not exaggerating, this is what La Marne looked like here on Thursday:

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(I was out with my camera, trying to capture full-bush shots of blooming roses for a blog post that I'm working on. It's a lot harder than you would imagine.)

I have an unknown Polyantha I call "Route 17 Pink Poly" that I rescued from a house that will be demolished to make way for a shopping center. The original plant is about 5 feet high, it gets no care whatsoever, and it blooms (somewhat) all season. Something with this kind of spirit has earned a place in my garden, and I'm proud to have it here.

Austin roses have their place in gardens ... I have lots of them here in my garden. The original Austins, with their heavy dose of old-rose genes, behave more like the old roses. The newer ones are grandchildren or great-grandchildren of the older ones, with less old-rose in their genes, and they can behave a bit more like modern roses. If Austins (or even KOs, for that matter) teach people to love roses, they have done their job.

Those of us in the old rose world are happy to share the word about our favorite types of roses to anyone who is interested and will listen. That's what I do for customers here who visit the nursery and the garden each weekend. Lots of old-rose show-and-tell. It's good to visit gardens, and talk to other rose gardeners in your area ... that's the best way to see how things work where you live.

Connie

As I've said a few time here Austins' really annoy me. First because all 9 I've tried died. Yes most were really beautiful but soon were gone. At bottom what really annoys me is Mr. Austins' overly aggressive marketing as if he was schleepiing (Sp?)hamburgers! And GW makes it even worse by classifying his output as Antique! English roses my foot! What happened to all his fellow countrymen like Harkness!

One thing about Antiques is they are tough. Charles de Mills has been growing in my God forsaken "pasture bed" while at least 20 other roses of all types have perished.

- [just arrived in Oz, looking around and awed at the beauty and splendor] "Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas any more."

"Why in the HECK is Austin called an Antique!"

Now - he is getting old - ( David Austin Sr.), but I have not heard any one but you call him an antique up until now!

"To me it's like some over-spreading hybridizer that takes over and won't quit" - AHHH yes - first we build him up - then we tear him down! - now that is getting older than an antique ... Why is it so important for you to make him quit?

It overshadows the delicacy and rarity of some of the beautiful roses that people like Krista (KTopp) and Maureen and Ingrid are letting me know about:

Now - I wonder how Krista and Ingrid got word of these roses? Had it not been for David Austin Sr. and Graham Stuart Thomas - they probably would not have heard about these roses ...

No wonder rare and special roses are lost! People keep getting only the Austins ...

Now let us examine the above statement: do you have any clue who helped preserve and market antique roses - when they during almost 4 decades fell out of favor among rosegrowers? David Austin sr. sold old garden roses long before he started his hybridization program. To this very day he still offers more varities of old garden roses - making the last part of your claim "People keep getting only the Austins..." - utterly false.

Funny that hard pressed, you loose you posture and exlaims - Antique Rose-ers other than Austin-ers, speak up - Any recommendation, photos to show off, anything? Are we getting desperate?? And then ironically mention "Stanwells Perpetual" - it was the first favorite Old Garden rose of David Austin sr. - which he has mentioned many times, and probably has made this rose known and grown, very widely among rosegrowers all over the world How very amusing and entertaining.

"To me Austins belong in the hybrid tea class".

May I recommend some winter reading about classifying roses? How many classes of roses are recognized by American Rose Society? Why are they classified this way? How do they classify Austins and why? Nuf said.

There are many really great roses availble today - of so many different classes. If we do our home work and get some experience about which roses do well in our different climates and conditions, all of us can over the years find some roses we will enjoy and like.

The idea and assumption that Old Garden Roses - like Rose de Rescht or Stanwells Perpetual and whole classes of old garden roses like Bourbons, Gallicas, Teas and Chinas are rare (like some unique antique furniture) - is totally untrue and off the mark. More plants of these, than any other time in history, are growing in gardens all over the world (And not just in a few royal gardens in Europe). Giving rose lovers more choice than ever. No one forces anyone to grow Austins or Knockout roses - with an internet connection and a credit card there are more roses to choose, than it will be possible to grow and get intimate knowlegde of - in a lifetime.

[after a pause] We must be over the rainbow!

Yes there are even Rainbow Knockouts now!

And yes I like to prune hard when needed! - my trusty Felco tools are always sharp and ready. A rose is not necessarily rare or antique because people do not know its name or are unfamiliar with rose classes or unable to pronounce the French name. Souvenir de La Reine de Drama does however have a magic appeal to certain people .... :-)

Connie, once you get everything going in Virginia, would you come to Tulsa, and start a nursery? I like the way you talk. I love almost all roses.

I had not realized that teas and chinas could not be grown in zone 5. Those older roses are very happy here.

I only have one or two Austins in my garden. Cottage Rose is very pretty, and so are Lilian Austin and Heritage.

Someone said that the OGR's don't rebloom, and that may be so, since they are usually blooming. SDLM and Cramoisi Superieur are outstanding. And there are so many others that are also beautiful.

Sammy

Thank you Niels. That about says it.

Serenasyh, Austins have never been classified as antique. Nor do they belong with HTs.

It is through David Austin that people around the world have "rediscovered" antique roses. He brought back the form and fragrance of antiques through his new hybrids at a time when they had nearly disappeared in the rose world and some were in danger of being lost forever due to the popularity of HTs and other modern roses. It was because of David Austin that many people became interested in OGRs. This is certainly true for me. I started with the Austins and then later purchased many OGRs.

DAs also have the magical advantage of repeat bloom. Most OGRs are once-blooming (at least the hardy ones), and the ones that do repeat do so on a much smaller scale than the DA blooming machines. It is mid-Oct. and I still have plenty of blooms on many of my DAs right now. Plus they are hardy, which is a big plus in our colder zones where we are limited in what we can plant due to hardiness.

As far as disease resistance, I have several OGRs that get the worse blackspot ever, far worse than my most-susceptible DAs. Yes some OGRs are disease-free and tough as nails, but certainly not all.

I take personal affront to your statements as I feel David Austin has opened up the world of roses vs. narrowed it, and you really need to read up on all that he has done with his programs. Or you and Jim can form an "I hate Austins" club, if for no other valid reason than to be contrary.

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My hero.

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Gertrude Jeckyl

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Brother Cadfael. How could anyone not love that?

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Evelyn. I bet Josephine Bonaparte would have been impressed with the apricots and would have rushed to import them to her garden.

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Charles Darwin. We can also thank David Austin for bringing yellow into OGR form. No small feat.

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Perhaps you've never heard of Chianti? An early Austin hardy climber bred very close to gallica form.

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I don't know about you, but gazing at this beautiful rose makes me wanna go back and find out about the antiques. (Redoute)

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Let's not forget William Shakespeare 2000

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This was a stroke of brilliance on behalf of Mr. Austin (Molineaux)

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Stick your nose in this one (Sharifa Asma). We should be thankful that one of David Austin's priorities has been preserving the heady fragrance that has nearly disappeared in many modern roses.

Veilchen, those are absolutely beautiful.

Gertrude is so beautiful, but after the first bloom, I only got about a total of 5 for the rest of the season. You are fortunate to get her to rebloom. I tried cutting her back, but she only wanted to bloom once in my garden.

I hated pulling out Sharifa Asma, Charles Darwin, and William Shakespeare, but they needed to be sprayed in my neck of the woods, and I don't spray.

Thanks for sharing such beauties.

Sammy

Near gone are the old days where roses met America. My grandmom had one that her grandmom mom bought under a hat in the migration era back in the 1700's This tradition would be repeated duing "The great move west" I dont want to claim any real David Austin knowledge or to the English methods of cultiavting and hybyding but I do get an idea to what an antique is and I will take some comfort knowing I can look in my yard oneday and see a bit of the past with out concern of who realy did it while relishing in it's beauty and history.

I don't get it. People who don't like Austin's roses or find they don't do well for them can simply ignore them. I don't believe there is some vast conspiracy to force us to buy them. There is alot of information and alot of choices out there. There are so many beautiful roses to chose from. I love 'em all.

Sammy, Gertrude doesn't rebloom for me as well as most other DAs, but she sure is gorgeous, smells divine, and actually repeats slightly more than my Compte de Chambord, from which she derives much lineage.

As someone who grows hundreds of roses in frigid zone 4 no less, of EVERY class, I respect all opinions because we all have different desires and expectations. The antique roses are my first loves and my favorites; however, I also grow dozens of Austins (which grow wonderfully here),,,and I also grow hybrid teas, floribundas, miniatures, shrubs, landscape roses, and yes...I even own a few of the maligned Knock Outs. Some do better than others, but I love to have as many kinds of roses as I can possibly grow here. I love ALL roses.

mendocino rose....I'm with you on this. It is one's right
to love (or not) any rose they choose. There is no right or wrong. If someone does't like Austins, Knock Outs, hybrid teas, or whatever.....don't grow them! A few of us
got into hot water for liking a particular Austin which is just plain ridiculous. If this isn't the place to discuss or promote a favorite rose, than where is it?

Roses are just like people. It takes all kinds to make the world go round. Some you love, and some you avoid.
But when you find the ones that make your heart happy, thats who you stick with.

Celeste

I forgot to add.....
I am a champion of the old roses, and my DH and I are preserving many old roses we search out around New England. We have a nice collection of 'found' old roses
that we love dearly. We also take care of the 'mother' plants where we found them (where possible) so that they
do not perish. I think its wonderful that so many people are having a renewed interest in the old roses.

I have dozens & dozens of old roses that I have purchased as well, so I am also enchanted with the antique roses. However, I don't think we have to argue that any one class of roses is superior to another. Its all a matter of personal taste and personal experience. As I said, I grow as many types of roses as I can and Austins add grace and beauty to my garden in harmony with other roses. My gardens are a harmonious blending of many different types of roses and I love them all. Love & plant what you want. So many times on these forums there are arguments pitting one kind of rose versus another and it starts getting hostile. This place is for friendship...
and love for this flower we so passionately discuss.
There is no universal perfect rose, just different folks liking different roses, and all opinions have validity.

Rose season is over here, and I'll miss them all.
If it wasn't for this forum and my photos, I would never
make it until next mid-June! Peace,

Celeste

Serena, I'm curious as to how you know that 'people are only getting the Austins'. Do you have any Marketing data to back up your claim?

Celestial, I'm with you. I like all kinds of roses..I have a few Austins and I like them. I am fairly new to roses and I don't think I would have ever known about english roses had I not seen Austin's at the nursery and spent time gazing at the beautiful roses in his catalogue. I have several kinds of roses and my Austins are mixed with my Tea roses. I love them all.

If one doesn't like a rose don't buy it!

I love orange roses but I know many don't like orange. I love multi colored roses but I know many don't. I HATE Mr Lincoln..it turns purplish-red when it gets older in my climate and I hate the color! However, I know Lincoln is a favorite rose of many rose lovers. My late friend loved pink roses..pinks of all colors..but only pinks and I thought that was boring! To each his own I guess!

And Serena - I wish you could see our smiley faces, warm goodhearted humor and nature - and don´t feel too pruned (read - whacked down) because some of us disgree and love our Austin Roses (you would too ) - if you ever saw how well some of them are doing here!

Take the Crocus Rose: In it's 6th season here, it has become a dense little shrub rose 5 feet tall and 4 feet wide - an elegant garden plant putting out 3-400 big flowers in the first flush and is rarely without flowers until it repeats with another huge flush. It is one of the more hardy Austin roses and I can grow it no-spray. It is hard to find roses like this!

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Wow. That is all one rose. How beautiful. Is it vulnerable to thrips? I wonder if it likes the heat of the south.

Sammy

Like Connie, I love them all. I love the knockouts because they are easy and are a good choice for someone that thinks they can't grow roses (to get them hooked). Did I mention I got hooked that way? lol And, I like looking at them in commercial landscaping. I'd rather look at a rose bush than something else they may plant there.

I love the Austins because they were my first try at something other than knockouts, and when I didn't kill them, they got me hooked on roses of all kinds - OGRs and moderns.

Now I have roses of ALL classes. If they look pretty to me, I get them! Perhaps some day my taste will change and I will hate the knockouts, or the Austin, but I doubt it. They obviously meet a need, or they would not be as popular.

To each his own. I think you could have a stunningly beautiful garden of all OGRs. And as a grower of knockouts, I even understand if you look down on my garden. It wouldn't matter - I like my garden anyway. :)

I do, however, worry about us knocking a class of roses. A lot of people come to this forum looking for information and if we are putting down the rose they just bought that may open the world of roses up to them, they just might close the door not only to this forum but also to all roses. What a shame that would be. Thank goodness no one made fun of my knockouts when that was all I had. I would hate to have missed the love of roses that I now have.

Yes it truly is a great rose - at least here Sammy. (grafted plant on multi-flora rootstock). Thrips are rare and few here and I have not seen them cause problems on roses here. It will probably become a little bigger in your climate, because the sunintensity is greater. It will probably make the crream yellow flowers, that sometimes has a tint of blush pink fade more. I do not have any experience about how it does in temps above 90F - my definition of heat. We live under different climate conditions and have different strains of blackspot - this rose only got a little BS and mildew the first years and in it's 4. season it took of ... I think different climates and conditions may be the reason, we see Austins behave differently and our opinions will be different - I also think some roses take longer time than others to show their pontential - I have gotten more patient over the years and now give most roses 5 seasons before I showelprune them. Earlier I was quicker to judge roses - and I got rid of many - especially if they were not very fragrant - like this rose. But since I have so many fragrant roses - I look just as much for growth habit, repeat, number of flowers and disease resistance today. This one is a keeper!

I am sure we can all find some roses that will do well for us - I sure look forward to seeing how the double blush pink knockouts will do up here. They are not for sale here - yet! But I think they will make roses - grow on some people.

Well, we learned about Old Roses before we learned about Austins.
Had we learned, first, that the evergreen roses did better here than Northern Europeans, we'd maybe have skipped the Austins. (Or not.)

Still, Austin's marketing can be given credit for introducing many people to roses that don't look like HTs. So I don't diss the guy. I don't HAVE to buy his roses, after all.

And yes, some DO perform well here (so long as they're watered generously).
Pelicanhead, we do love:

'Golden Celebration,' which is big, frangrant, and resistant to our sorts of fungal disease. (Blackspot's not an issue here.)
and
'Prospero' which grows for us much as a China Rose does, tho a small China. If you resist hard deadheading (just "bend and snap") and don't prune it, 'Prospero' is a continuous-blooming, densely-foliaged, disease-free beauty. You can use it for a short hedge, and it is good in a vase.

There are a few others here, but of the many Austins we've grown, those are the outstanding examples in OUR garden.

(But I still prefer Teas, Chinas, and Noisettes.)

Jeri

All these "florist" roses, everyone grows them, scraggly looking things in the front yards. Wait, ohhh look at these!? Now those are interesting! Abraham Darby, looks yummy, The Pilgrim, WOW, Christopher Marlowe, it's handpainted(!) what the? I must to try them! Just once...

"English "gateway" Roses"! What an "Awakening" (I grow now) I blame him for my "Old Grey Cemetery Noisette"! (Oh the fragrance! Help me I can stop!) I DO blame him for my MAC habit! I couldn't help my self! Now it's, La Marne, Mlle. Cecile Brunner, Souvenir this and that....I couldn't not!

Damn the man!.....and his partner in crime, Jeri.

:-) Allison

Well, one really good thing that came of this is seeing all the marvelous photos of beautiful roses. I was introduced to old roses many years ago by seeing a huge shrub of Mutabilis in full bloom and it changed my life. The old roses seemed incredibly beautiful to me versus the modern ones of that time. Then the Austins came along and I was stunned at how gorgeous they were, and now I'm seeing floribundas that have more of an old-rose look and I buy those too. If I love a rose and think it will do well in my garden I don't care about it's provenance. I've disliked hybrid teas but that was before I came across Yves Piaget and Classic Woman which are both now in my garden. I still don't care for modern roses that look modern, they're just not right for me, but of course many people love them and that's perfectly fine. Roses are here purely to give us happiness and I buy the ones that make me happy and I don't care about their origins. In my sunblasted garden the tea roses do best for me so of course I have lots of those. But I also have Austins which do reasonably well although they probably wish they were back in England. Still, my own-root tiny Wife of Bath is putting out new buds every which way and it's 93 degrees. She's not going anywhere, and neither is Bishop's Delight, Cottage Rose, Carding Mill and others. It's all good.

Ingrid

Now, Ingrid sums it up well.
There's nothing wrong with being inquisitive enough to try all sorts of roses.
We've grown at least a few of almost every sort of rose.
Some were great here, some were dreadful, most fell somewhere in-between.
Tom Carruth said once that Ralph Moore and David Austin had opened the way for the creation of all sorts of roses that weren't HTs or Floribundas.
Whether you care for most of their roses or not, both gentlemen deserve our thanks for the doors their work opened.

Jeri

Hartwood thank you for that GORGEOUS PHOTO of LaMarne. And Celeste, you too are famous on this forum for your rose beauties. I am hoping you can also have photos of those special rare roses.

Sammy, any photos, pleeeeease? It'd be great to see those prolific once-bloomers with the long bloomin' season. In your zone, it can be an inspiration that the once-bloomers can actually have a long season's worth too!

Again, for those of you who do grow the rare roses be sure to post your favorite photos even from times past, that we can enjoy their rarity! Be sure to include the names of the roses.

LOL! Bless on everyone's lovely photos CupshapedRoses, Veilchen-I do think that Austins are gorgeous! They just don't need any help being promoted. They already overshadow the rare roses that just need a chance to get to be known here at our Rose forum. For the Austin-lovers if you come to Kansas you will perhaps realize what I mean and why I'm very despondent about the rare and Old World roses. Kansas gardens have NO TRUE ANTIQUE roses, you can't find them at any! nurseries either. There is a basis for what I am saying. Visit Kansas and you'll know what I mean. You can find tons of Austins. Austins take over the entire Kansas market. Who can blame a rose for being beautiful--whether it be HTs or Austins, but I think Austins don't belong on the Antique Forum as Jim Conner says. Yes, they belong to the beautiful category, but not the special category of real Antiques. I also have a sad lesson in that as a newbie, I came to the forum without realizing what a wealth of other roses there were besides just the typical standards. Now I can only choose a few select areas remaining that should be dedicated to the rare roses.

It's time to Bless and photograph the Old World Beauties now! This is their time to shine so I am hoping for more of Hartwood's gorgeous photos romantic roses. And Celeste's stunning roses. Ingrid can you grab some of the views of the "ancient" roses?

Anyway, thank you everyone for the still all so friendly ways. And for tolerating my failure to clarify. What I meant is Austins belong in the modern rose category-- they should not be classified as romantic, old world or antique roses. I think of them as modern-day roses just like floribundas and HTs are.

Serena...if you hop over to the Antique Rose Forum, Anita has a post over there about unusual or lesser-known old roses that might interest you. I posted some of my photos there.

Celeste

If anything, we should worry about the Knockout roses taking over. Serena, you're not alone in living in a place where it is rare to find antique roses for sale in the local nurseries. But, for the past two years, I have seen the Knockouts completely take over the rose displays everywhere. Around here there were the usual offerings of HTs with a few rugosas and Austins thrown in. Now this past summer I have noticed virtually no Austins for sale anywhere any more. Just mostly Knockouts. And if anything is farther from an antique rose, it is a Knockout.

I have had many disappointments with the Austin roses. Living along the coast here in Oregon I thought they would thrive here. I spent hours (literally) drooling over the catalog & taking notes & deciding what to buy, only to end up shovel pruning many of them after a few years of catering to them & having them disappoint me.
However - there are still a few in my garden that are superior & that I would never part with. I think it's unfair to classify all Austins in one big group. They really do vary as to how they perform in different areas of our country.

I agree with Veilchen, the last few years Knockouts have taken over. 90 percent of roses are K.O. in St. Pete/Tampa. Oddly, we have been getting $5.99 promo roses. Liv Tyler,Eden,Dianna Princess of Wales, Mary Rose, WS 2000, as well as a bunch I passed on because I already own or do not want the color. I think that the K.O. are actually bringing down the price of roses. But we have less variety.

Yes, We do still get the Premium Roses, but I find lately, as often as not, that the same rose is a promo in the smaller containers. I like to shop online, but unless I am "crazy" over a rose, I will not buy it,shipping kills the deal.

I balance a few hundred roses, all types, old and new.I like Chinas n Noisettes the most. But I like Austin's also. I can not grow some of the OGRs.David Austin's roses give the look in some cases. If they take off in the South, they can get rather large.

I do actually have a K.O. I didn't want it for the first couple years. I like the rose, always has bloom on it. I hate the Yellow Knockouts.

It really is just about finding what you like, (I like stripes/spots, others would cringe)and finding what grows best and adapting.

Wow! Gorgeous, Celeste. Those rare beautiful roses are totally amazing!!!

I would love to grab the images and plop them here as eye candy. I actually do web design and can easily do so. Sometimes reloading and trying to stick in photos into threads one-at-a-time is quite an inconvenient hassle unless one knows HTML code and can quickly yank those photos simultaneously.

But it's far better to just post the link so that others can see, unless Celeste says it's o.k. to re-post the eye-candy here... Those French truffle-delicacy eye-candy, or patisseries et confectionaires from Celeste are truly outstanding and can promote the Antique roses! Absolutely breathtaking, Celeste!color>

I have to likewise ask Krista if she can bring her Marchesa here as well...

In that thread you mentioned some of the most deeply fragrant rare roses, so later on in the day, I will be HMF searching for my 2010 collection.

LOL! GAAAAA! to think that I could have had a Souvenir du President Lincoln instead of 2 Mr. Lincolns-- I could have had one of each! Must be magic in the name. P.S. I think the French have got the name right. To me the name Mr. Lincoln is unacceptable for one of our greatest, most special Presidents, if not the greatest President. To call the rose Mr. Lincoln does not do enough honors.

Everyone, here are the intensely fragrant, truly antique roses that Celeste had recommended: Pierre Notting, Heinrich Schultheis, Souv. du Pres. Lincoln, Pompom Panachee, Boula de Nanteuil, Crested Sweetheart.

And here are the actual photo links to her beautiful roses.

Celeste's beautiful and rare roses

serenasyh, I don't know what part of KS you live in, other than it probably is the northern half of the state, but I'd guess it is in a larger city maybe? I ask--because you said something about the abundance of Austins in KS. Not in my part of KS (Zone 6). I sometimes think I'm the only person in town who has ever heard of Austins and even owns a dozen or so. Not even my garden club knows about them. And I have never seen any in our local nuseries and garden centers--wait, Home Depot in the past couple years has brought in a couple of Austins that really look like sick puppies--so they don't sell well at all.

I call Austins modern reproduction old roses and I love them. Would have another dozen if my yard were larger.

Oh yes, I also grow HTs, floribundas, hybrid musks, hybrid perpetuals, rugosa, etc.--not very many old roses, but that's because I had already filled up my yard with roses before I knew much about old roses.

Kate

Hi, Kate! I live in Kansas City and in the heart of sprawling suburbia. Lots of people seek their Austins at the local nurseries and several Kansas Citians do prefer just the Austins because they love the cup-shaped blooms and!!! the guaranteed fragrance.

But I have to back-track a little and say that one of my absolute favorite gardeners here is Boxofrox, and we are always trading banter and fun conversations and such, but seriously I do adore his garden, hence I am a total Stalker! It's funny how I truly did forget that his garden is chockful of gorgeous Austins. And one of the roses that I keep stalking and demanding for is his Abraham Darby, LOL! which he always obliges, Bless him!

Yes, every Austin rose is indeed so beautiful. So I completely! missed the mark in putting such an inflammatory wording-- resenting. I do not resent, I just really, really worry about the welfare of the old roses. No one buys them or seems to be aware of them unless they are rose aficionados and rosarians. One of the reasons why I was so concerned about the Austins is because in our Kansas City nurseries, Austins are a very popular sell! There's like 20 listings of Austins a little under half the number of hybrid teas, floribundas, and grandifloras combined. Nurseries refuse to sell ancient roses because no one has heard of them. Their attitude is why should we bother with the ancient antique roses--no one has heard of them, no one will buy them, everyone loves Austins, we will only sell these!

I am very! concerned that the ancient old world roses will die out if they fail to reach public knowledge. That is all I should have said. I actually started a new thread to try to reverse my botched, totally screwed up attempts and to try to re-focus on letting the regular rose forumers discover these unknown beauties! So if anyone here can help me bring light to these special rarities, please help! I realize that the Antiques people just stay within the Antiques forum, but by doing so, newbies never get that chance to know about the old ancient roses. Photos paint A THOUSAND WORDS! Without the photos, no newbie or regular person would be interested, I fear. And I really, really want to help out the old roses and those who continue to bravely sell them. Here is the link I restarted.

celebrating rare-and-hard-to-find roses

Serenasyh I live in St. Joseph an hour north of you. I have roughly 300 roses of mini, mini-fl, floribunda, and Gr/HT varieties. All modern of course.
I have tried many times to grow David Austin roses with absolutely no luck whatsoever. I love to look at the DA catalogue and it always tempts me to order some more but now I know better. They just don't grow for me in my gardens.
Also, I think that the Knockout roses are some of the ugliest flowers of any kind I have ever seen. To me they just don't look like roses at all. I don't see how they can compare to a beautifully grown modern HT or floribunda or mini/mini-fl available today.
In my humble opinion it is worth the effort to spray and fertilize the modern roses when I get the lovely blooms they can produce.
John

jont1

Another aspect of Austin roses that bothers me is it seems that Austin roses is less particular about the growing qualities of their roses. In other words they are focused on the looks, fragrance and repeat blooming performance. All fine characteristics of any rose but my favorite breeder, Kordes, also seems to worry about other basic qualities such as the ability to grow under various conditions which for me and apparently you I have found to be lacking.

But it is not only Austins but many others have failed for me. I need to work on the pH of my soil which is low. More lime this winter/spring! I also have in many places shallow soil. Another factor that I've found bothers Kordes roses less than Austin's.

Bottom line is that so many rose growers on GW naturally buy what is readily available without making the extra effort to seek out something like Kordes or Tantau roses. Or for that matter roses from the host of other breeders from around the world. Well of course that is a major project so I don't really blame those that have great luck with A's. I would too if my experience was the same.

Interesting topic, We have a star writer amongst us, "Niels", well written, well said, as usual. Also Vielchen and Celeste, very enjoyable posts getting your points accrossed nicely. Great pictures Vielchen and Niels.
Pauline - Vancouver Island.

I thank Mr. Austin and a photo of Constance Spry from Mottisfont Abbey (in a Wayside Catalog) for bringing me to roses, period.

Without any gardeners in the family, I had never seen any type of rose except the staunchly upright hybrid teas in yards I passed while walking home from school, or the occasional florist roses in a bouquet. I was baffled when my mom would say "I love the smell of roses" The only rose scent I'd ever smelled was in rose scented soap!

I didn't know roses could drape over arbors, nor had any kind of form other than hybrid teas. So researching Austin's roses brought me to discover old roses.

There is no reason to resent Austin for his success. I believe his success has helped the revival of old roses- gateway drug... err rose. :)

I also believe that finding Austin's roses in local nurseries is a good thing. There is no reason to believe that if his roses weren't there, that the nursery would be offering true old roses instead.

I wouldn't worry about the popularity of Knockout either.

What I want to know is where I can get my mitts on Beales' Leah Tutu, photographed earlier this year by Andrea Georgia at the Chelsea Flower show.

PS. I enjoyed all of the gorgeous photos.

I admire Mr. Austin and his genius in creating such captivating roses with true old-rose form. I have many of them. I am glad they are around. The more choices in roses, the better. For me, it does not interfere in my love for growing antique roses. In fact, I have purchased some old roses when I researched the lineage of some of the DA roses.

I suppose the only critique I have is that so many of his roses are inconsistent, depending on the area. For example, when A Shropshire Lad was introduced, it was promoted as a rose for all zones and then only recently it is touted as a better rose for colder zones, since it does not bloom well in warmer zones. Same thing Constant Spry. DA Texas told me it would bloom fine in California. Well, it needs winter chill in order to bloom at all. Gertrude Jekyll is another one that is better for colder zones. Meantime, I needed a repeat climber in the areas where I put these in the garden and was instead testing Austin roses in a warmer zone, that years later the company now recommends for colder zones. Meantime this trial and error thing is costing me $$$$$$$$. Oh well! You live and you learn. Fortunately, there are many DA roses that do great in CA.

P.S. My other issue is that I wish DA Texas would offer own-root roses, since I would like to try the new ones own-root.

I really can't resent any rose that has been produced. I, myself, do not particularly like knockout roses are they are the cliche rose for every person on the planet, but they serve their purpose and perform well even if I don't like them.

I personally love Austins. I'm actually planning on owning at least 1 of every rose he has ever put into commerce. Austins are most definitely "modern" roses, but not hybrid teas. I also have to agree that ultimately, Austin's roses led me into the interest of OGRs. Even Austin himself is fascinated by OGRs and it was his inspiration to breed from OGRs to create a more stable, fragrant, disease resistant, and repeat blooming collection of roses that had qualities of many OGRs. I would say he has more than achieved his goal and I admire him for it. I too share his passion for the OGRs and their form and fragrance, which leads me to hold an appreciation and desire to also grow OGRs. Graham Thomas himself wanted to bring out the rejuvenation of interest in OGRs as hybrid teas began to take over the market, and Austin helped educate consumers on what an OGR can be like with his introductions. I think this boom in English roses also helped aid in rekindling the desire to look and research into relatives and OGRs in theirselves as people now garner much more interest in them.

Connie, I apologise, I omitted to compliment you on your beautiful picture of "La Marne" accompanying also a very enjoyable post. Thank you. It is posts like this, and there were a few in this topic that really get me thinking about OGRs. I only have a few, most of them ramblers where the one-time blooming period is of course spectacular, so I think I could work on getting a few more old roses to go with my collection and I am sure I will feel more sophisticated when I do. :)

Pauline - Vancouver Island

The Austins seem to be thrip resistant in my garden that is an absolute mess from thrips. Maybe it is that they are offspring of old roses, I don't know. I know that those are the only ones I enjoy in the summer since they aren't a mess.
Nancy

I have 4 Austin roses; Tradescant and Abraham Darby are my the best. Darby is always full of blooms all summer long. My wife love Austin roses, but she does not take part in taking care of the flowers; she admires from afar. The thing I do not like is t the amount of space they take up. In the spring I have a tremendous amount of winter kill to cut away, however,they always take off and do fine.

Geez. Is there anything you do like? I have Austins and OGRs and HTs and Teas. I'll grow anything I like. If you call making pretty colored roses that smell great and bloom a lot 'overspreading', I don't know what to say.

Serena,

Well, isn't that the pot calling the Mister Lincoln black?

I told my Husband the only man I would ever leave him for....

David Austin. :-)

Austins are not considered "Antiques". The original owner of GardenWeb (not iVillage) lumped discussion of Austin/"English" roses in the "Antique Roses" forum, because the form of the Austin roses is similar many old garden roses, and at the time, many folks who grew Austins were also gravitating towards growing old garden roses.

Old garden roses were here before Austin, and will be here after. If the roses that Austin, Meilland, etc., hybridize look like old garden roses, and can be used to draw folks into growing old garden roses as well, that is a good thing.

If the "newbies" don't take the time to review all of the links to the different rose forums, then we can always direct them to the other places (I try to do that whenever appropriate). But, if it is a modern hybrid tea that looks like a florist rose that they desire, then this is the place.

Redsox, I thought I was the only one to have a crush on David Austin!