I was going to rent a sod cutter but decided that would be too difficult to manhandle. Then a friend told me she used Round-Up, waited a couple of weeks & put down layers of newspapers and mulch on top, letting the dead grass turn to compost in the soil. So that's what I'm going to do, I think. I have St Augustine grass - really tough stuff. I don't really know how long that composting process will take. I have a sneaky idea that I'll still be digging up grass roots when I prepare the beds.
Sherry

If it's nice grass I would leave, plant roses, apply mulch and just keep grasses clipped low. If you take out the grass you will more than likely just give weed seeds a chance to blow in and grow.If you have bare soil something will grow.

I used a couple of sheets of newspaper placed directly over the grass. You don't have to kill the grass first. Then put whatever compost or manure you have available on top of the newspaper, and then put a layer of mulch over that. Let it sit for a while and then plant. You can even plant the roses right into the grass, then newspaper and mulch around them (yes, I know, I'm lazy and was in a hurry).

If, like me, you dislike using sprays/poisons, you can always do it the old-fashioned way--with you and your shovel (not a hoe--a shovel) acting as the "sod cutter." Pick a day after a rain or a watering, dig down far enough to lift up the sod. If too much dirt comes up with the sod, shake the piece to loosen the dirt. Once all the sod is lifted off, dig the entire bed down about 10-12 inches, loosening the soil and chopping up lumps. (If the soil isn't very good, it wouldn't hurt to spread an inch of some kind of amendment before loosening the soil.) Then dig the holes for your roses. And lastly, pile up 3-4 inches of mulch over the whole bed (no weeds, as a result).

It takes time and effort to do it this way, but you won't be sorry in the long run. You'll have better drainage, the weeds won't keep popping back up again and driving you crazy, and you won't have to go back to re-do later what was not done properly the first time. It's worth it.

Another possibility is to make a lasagne bed. Since I have never done that, you might want to use the search box above to find "lasagne" postings. That procedure has been covered many times on this forum.

As for the Round-up option (ugh!), you spray and wait about a month. Then you dig.

Those are about the only options I know. Obviously, I think the first method is the best way, but it's up to you how you want to do it--OK?

Good luck,
Kate

I used pieces of grass sod in the bottom of my rose holes for somehing for the rose roots to feed on when I had no compost.

I would love to read more from others on this but last spring I decided to make the lasagne style bed as I was anxious to get some roses planted. I put down cardboard over the grass, then layered with newspapers, soil + compost and layered again with newspapers/soil/compost. It made a nice raised bed and I planted about 10 rose bushes there. All but 2 were new roses. They have performed beautifully and now I'm thinking of making another lasagne bed this fall. It really is the easiest thing to do but I'd be interested in hearing from some of our pros on here if there is any long term drawbacks to this method. I've read on the links that some suggest you wait 6 months for everything to decompose but having read also that some successfully made the bed and planted the same day, I tried that and it has worked great so far!

There are two ways to handle this, and use of RoundUp is NOT one of them. You can lift the sod out and use it elsewhere in your yard, or you could just run a tiller over the area that will become your new bed. The grass is a form of green manure and can be chopped up quite well in place by using the tiller. Next grade the area and plant your roses. Hopefully, you don't live in an area where there is snow in winter, and where plows throw snow on the area to become the rose plot. If this is the case, and your town uses salt or sodium chloride to melt the snow, there will be a problem, since the salt and SC will ultimately kill the roses. Think this idea through before you do anything.

Astphard:

I second Kate's recommendations for removing the grass. I really don't care for the round up method as I would like to skirt chemical use wherever possible.

Having said that let me ask, are you physically capable to do the grass removal? If not do you have a friend or young person you can hire to do it for you? Is your space large? It the area to be removed isn't huge then you can probably do it yourself with a little self pacing.

I say this because I have done virtually all of the grass removal in our yard by myself and with a trusty shovel. For me gettting rid of a large area of grass has been accomplished by 'hiring' my husband, hiring a college student or doing it on my own over the course of a weekend or a few weeks. It can be back breaking but once done you have your planting space all ready to go!

The only other suggestion I have is that once you remove the grass be sure to shake out any/all soil in the turf if your soil is good. Some people might think that's crazy but I hate to give up good soil

Hope this helps. Kinda long, sorry.

Kate

Perhpas this post should come with a disclaimer for Bermuda grass. NEVER plant a bed on top of burmuda grass. Unless you want to produce bermuda sod.

I was about to mention Bermuda.
Seeing that the Original Poster is in Zone 9a, this is an issue.

We deal with feral Bermuda Grass, planted here many decades ago. It is virtually impossible to eradicate the stuff, and it is our worst problem. The roots go a good 6 feet deep, and it doesn't much matter what chemical you spray on it, or how you mulch it.

Jeri

I just did this bed about a month ago, I have common bermuda too. I sprayed the grass first with Roundup then put the newspaper/cardboard down. Then I added "soil conditioner" on top. I plan on adding a bag of cow manure and then let is sit for a while until I find some time to plant my Yolande D'Aragon in there.
Bermuda won't survive without direct sun, if you do have bermuda, put a thick layer of cardboard on top.

{{gwi:238200}}

Hope this helps.

Bermuda won't survive without direct sun, if you do have bermuda, put a thick layer of cardboard on top.

*** I beg to differ.
As someone who has fought Bermuda Grass for 20 years, I can attest that while it might turn snow white without sunlight, it definitely survives.
Remember that its roots go down at least 6 feet.

Jeri

hhmm.. I have a huge oak tree in my front yard and there is no grass there, just bare soil. I asked the people from the lawn forum what's wrong and they all told me that bermuda will not grow without direct sun. Oh well..
{{gwi:116770}}

Yes, but it is not dead. And if you dig down a few inches, you will find Bermuda Grass runners, underground.

From long experience, I would say that, eventually, the Bermuda Grass will push its way up through your layers of newspaper.
You will then have that decayed stuff with bermuda grass grown through it.
Weedcloth with Bermuda Grass braided through it is even more fun.
Grass-Be-Gone makes Bermuda Grass pretty sick, but if it is sufficiently well-established, it will come back.
I think Bermuda Grass will survive the End Of The World.

Jeri

I am against using chemicals, but let me tell you St. Augustine grass in Florida is a whole different animal. It is thick and sends out coarse viney runners. It is hard to even stick a spade through it.

No, you will NOT kill St. Augustine by just putting cardboard and pine bark or any other mulch on top of it. Been there, tried that, it doesn't work. St. Augustine grass only dies when you don't want it to.

It is also very hard to cut and dig out, as we have done that before too. It is not an easy undertaking if you have a large area to deal with. Hiring someone to use a sod cutter is extremely expensive, and it removes much of your good soil with the roots. I am strong, but I would not have been able to use the sod cutter myself. Sod cutting people also ruin any irrigation pipes, or anything else you don't want destroyed, even when these items are clearly marked. Did I mention it is extremely expensive?

Sorry, but when I have had a few areas that were large (aprox. 60 feet long by 10 feet wide, and larger), I have had to use roundup.

My most recent large area (it took 15 yards of pine bark to make it 1 inch thick) was round-upped the end of June this year. I waited about a week and then covered it with newspaper and cardboard that I had saved to recycle. I then topped it with only 1 inch of mini pine bark, so that I wouldn't have a lot of bark to deal with when I plant this fall.

I just went out and checked underneath the bark. I have NO grass roots left, only soft crumbly soil. It's GORGEOUS. I have had no weeds in this bed. Well, one or two around the fountain, but that's it.

Northern grass is different. But then you're most likely trying to deal with hard clay. If you're in the south, dealing with a southern grass, you need to use roundup to kill it, or you'll end up killing yourself trying to get rid of it.

Sandy

I have had black plastic on my hill to choke out weeds for almost 2 years now. Occasionally I will make room for a new rose so I will cut a hole in the plastic. To my knowledge Bermuda has never been planted on that hill...yet I see runners everytime.

This would mean that the Bermuda is traveling uphill, under black heavy mil plastic ( not landscaping type...the real thick stuff), through soaprock, without water or sunlight and still it is still truckin'.

I hate the stuff...but I am in SC so I know I will never be without it.

Dig, Pull, Cuss.

Ronda

Thanks for all of your helpful comments and suggestions. I don't have the time right now for a full reply (will do so this evening) but wanted to let everyone know that I am in New Orleans with St. Augustine grass. The section I'm going to clear is about 5'x30' and is primarily grass with some weeds that have started creeping in over the summer (very thick and fast-growing weeds which I've only been mowing, not puling out since it's really been too hot to work in the yard). By the board's standards I am young, but I am a rather small female, so if big huge muscles are needed, I'm probably still out of luck. And being in New Orleans we get snow every 10-20 years and have no equipment to deal with it, so salting from the streets won't be an issue.

Anyway, must off to work. Thank for the replies so far!

I've been reading up on lasagne gardening and it seems as though Bermuda grass really is an absolute nightmare to remove. Is St. Augustine as bad to get out and will I have to have all the headaches that Bermuda-owners have when trying to get rid of it? And how deep do the roots of St. Augustine tend to grow (the tales of 6' roots on the Bermuda is a bit intimidating, to tell the truth).

Also, does it cause problems for plants (ie, roses) to start off in the wonderful, fantastic soil in the top 6-8" and then find itself in less than perfectly desireable soil? My soil out front is thick, not really clay but not perfect garden soil either.

So, based on this thread and others that I've been reading, would the following sound like a good plan?

1) Round UP the yard
2) Shovel up the yard
3) Round UP anything that may remain to be doubly sure everything's killed

Sounds like a plan.

What I did, and it has worked for 3 weed free and Bermuda free years:
Round up
Wait 2 weeks then Round up again
Another 2 weeks then Round up again.
Then, finally, lasagna cardboard (newspaper will break down in about 2 weeks in New Orleans) then compost (if you want good soil) then more cardboard, then mulch on top to make it look pretty. Don't leave any gaps in the cardboard, or weeds will grow in the gaps and up through the mulch.

I didn't shovel anything up, but then again, after digging all of the big huge rose holes and removing all of the dirt and then replacing it with good dirt, and then layering all of the cardboard, I was pretty dang tired and winter was over.

For the record, southerners can't just use cardboard and mulch without adding Round Up. I did that this winter. Planted about 50 roses, layered the cardboard, compost, more cardboard, then thick mulch. I've been fighting Bermuda grass all summer long.
So, for the rest of the garden which will be planted this winter, I've been Round Upping all summer trying to kill it for good.

Second what cweathersby said. We got rid of bermuda that wasn't even growing well (too much shade) but it still took forever. We removed the top layer, we rototilled, we rounded up. We put down landscape fabric and rocks. It still peeked through. But I think this year we killed it, or maybe the drought did :)

Anyway, I did read that there is a new chemical that is supposed to kill bermuda. Bayer is making it. I'll try to find more info.

On a funny note, my husband showed me some weird spots in our lawn from the upstairs window. I realize they were my foot prints from the hose to the flower beds. I had mixed up some round up and must have had some on my foot as I walked to the flower beds to spray weeds. Pretty funny.

I dug up some St Augustine in the backyard. Healthy, thick SA will be tough to get a shovel through. The runners are like a qtr inch thick and resilient. Back there I used another brand that said it would kill the root, but in 2 weeks when I was digging it up, it was greening up again. With or without Round-up you will be digging, unless you just cover it and let it turn to compost which I'm sure takes some number of months. If you can't wait, dig in or after the rain or wet down the grass. It's easier then and less dirty. Now if you have someplace to move the grass to, don't treat it with R-U. I had an assembly line going. I'd take a shovelful of dirt out and replace it with an exact fit of the excavated sod. (Have clippers handy to cut the runners that the shovel doesn't get. Sometimes half your load will fall off - still connected to something.) Step on it, fill in the edges if necessary with dirt, and that's it. I think it all would have survived were it not for my grubs. The distance between locations is the killer. Those shovelfuls are heavy.

Digging out the dead and dying grass is hard work. It holds a lot of dirt (sand), and you have to shake it out and toss it in the pile - which will be huge when you're done. The roots don't go particularly deep. Healthy grass roots are way less than a foot deep. Dying and dead are less. It's the runners that are the pain. They go over and under each other and can't be pulled lose or broken easily. They're like cables.

Shoot for a time when the sun isn't on you - if you value your life. Drink plenty of Gatorade to replenish the electrolites & fluids you'll lose sweating. It's doable if done in junks, resting in between - even for a small person. Youth is on your side. I don't mean to make this sound like a trip to the gallows, but, gee, there are similarities. And I'll be doing the same thing in a few weeks - after I finish tiling my front porch. I have more plans & passion than brains.
Here's to us, astphard!
Sherry

Anyway, I did read that there is a new chemical that is supposed to kill bermuda.

*** "Floozieflop." (Fluazifop-P-Butyl) Grass-B-Gone.
It makes Bermuda Grass go somewhat peaked.
You can buy the straight stuff from a farm-supply store.
Kill it? Nope. Not here.
It does make the stuff easier to pull up.
But get rid of it? Nope.

Jeri