Hi Bart. This is THE forum for Tea fanatics here.

um, i pushed submit before I thought a good rose you mught look at. Not a tea or noisette but a bourbon, Blairii 2. Like Zephirine Drouhin, this is a rose which will cope with the precise pruning to use on a catenary. Flowering on the current seasons wood as well as older wood, these climbing bourbons seem extremely amenable to catenary work and I find it quite easy to separate just a couple of good canes to travel (in my case) the length of my wall, supported by wires and also leave some of the canes to get a bit more twiggy and bushy to hide my washing line post. They grow long, long flexible but thick canes every season so you can get a renewal system going well while the thicker pillared growth is happy to be lopped to size every year. I am a complete ignoramus about teas or noisettes (apart from MAC which is a beast) but hey, rest assured, if there these roses are also good for swags, there will be loads of suggestions from this lot.

Suzy, this lot loves you, too...fanatically.

Sherry

Hello Bart!
Where in Italy do you live? I'm in the province of Piacenza close to the border with Parma, in the hills, also with a steeply sloping piece of land that I garden on.
Welcome to the forum!
Melissa

Thanks for your answers,everyone! I live in Tuscany,at the foot of the Appenines, between Prato and Bologna. I don't really know what zone it'd be; in a rose book I have they put most of Italy as a zone 8,but I don't know. My garden is on our piece of land that was formerly abandoned,with a beautiful view and bad soil. I have to work very hard at improving it.It can get awful windy out there,but it has a south-western exposure, and is protected from north wind.It gets awful hot in the summer, with that exposure, and the light is not ideal,in the sense that I get more afternoon light rather than that of the morning, but oh well.The place where this swag is to go will be pretty protected by the huge, ugly metal shed that the previous owner put up (this is shaped like a half cylinder, and eventually I hope to remove the metal siding and leave the arching framework, and cover said framework in roses and wisteria! But that will have to wait...)For this swag, I am thinking it might be nice to try for 5 repeat-bloomers.Eventually I hope to do a second one at the foot of the garden,with ramblers,because down there it's more exposed to wind,but this, too, will have to wait-I haven't even gotten that area fenced in!So many big projects that I dream of,who knows if I'll really get around to them.
Sherry,thank you for your detailed description of Maman's habit and ways. I, too, have E.Veyrat Hermanos, but have not yet gotten it to bloom,it always covers itself in buds, which then never manage to open. I moved it (it had pathetic soil)last fall. It still didn't bloom, though it's putting out lots of growth as a plant. If it doesn't do something impressive soon,it's getting the shovel. Do you do anything in particular for your E.Veyrat to help it to bloom?
And another question:Does anyone have any colour combination tips for swags? Thanks again for your welcome and attention,cheers,bart

hello Bart
I got my Tony Lord book (Designing with Roses)out so here is a list of roses for pergolas, arcades and catenaries, which, according to his criteria. are graceful in habit, flexible in growth with pendulous blooms and refined foliage, with a height of at least 4-5 m. As the list is quite long, I will limit it to pinks.

Awakening, Blairii 2, Blush Rambler, Cl.Paul Lede, Dorothy Perkins, Edmund Proust. Elsa Robichon, Flora, Frances E Lester, Francois Juranville, Jean Guichard, Kew Rambler, La Follette, Laura Davoust, Mme Driot, mme Gregoire Staechelin, May Queen, Narrow Water, New Dawn, Tea Rambler
Can copy out entire list for you as I rate Tony Lord quite highly.

Campanula, thank you so much for this list from Tony Lord. If it's not too much trouble, I guess I WOULD be interested in seeing the whole list,or at least the "red" ,"orange" and "purple" ones that he would recommend.I am thinking that I'd like to have a darker,intense pink/purple on the center post,then two medium pinks, and on the end posts,paler colours.On the PB forum, someone suggested Pink Cloud as being a possible candidate.Being a "relative" of New Dawn,I'm thinking this might be worth a try,seeing as Tony Lord recommends both New Dawn and Awakening!I am also thinking it might be wise to have a mix of old and more modern roses on the catenary,for health reasons, and also for contrast. I'm pretty much settled on using Emmanuela de Mouchy and Elie Beauvilain. No one has commented On Mme. E. Souffrain;maybe I better make a seperate thread about that. Because,on HMF,the photos of this look decidedly yellow,but I saw a photo on a French rose site in which it looked quite pinky (i.e.,giving the idea that it's a bit like Jaune Desprez,a sort of soft blend)If that is so, it would be perfect for one of the end posts...thanks for all your help! regards, bart

Hi Bart, Here we go:
Adelaide d orleans Aimee Vibert
Alberic Barbier Albertine
Alchymist Alexandre Girault
Alexandre Tremouillet Alister Stella Gray
Auguste Gervaise Aviateur Bleriot
Awakening R.Banksia var banksiae
R.Banksia var lutea Black Boy
Blairii two Bleu Magente
blush Rambler Celine Forestier
Chaplins Pink Climber City of York
Cecille Brunner cl Climbing Ena Harkness
Climbing Iceberg Climbing Mme Testout
Climbing Mrs Herbert Stevens Climbing Paul Lede
Crepuscule Crimson Shower
Debutante Desprez a Fleur jaune
Dorothy Perkins Dundee rambler
Edmund Proust Elisa Robichon
Emily Gray Felicite Perpetue
Flora Frances E Lester
Francois Juranville Gardenia
Ghislaine de Feligonde Gloire de Dijon
Jean Gauchard Kew Rambler
La Follete Lamarque
Laure Davoust Leontine Gervaise
Mme Alfred Carrier Mme Driot
Mme Gregoire Staechelin Marechal Niel
May Queen Mermaid
mulliganii Narrow Water
New Dawn Paul Noel
Paul Transom Reve d'Or
Rose-Marie Viaud seagull
Sombreuil Summer Wine
Super excelsa Super Sparkle
Tausendschon Tea Rambler
Treasure Trove Veilchenblau
Violette William Allen Richardson

Tony Lord does not distinguish between arcades, pergolas and catenaries so you will have to be discriminating here. Some are obviously insane to try on a catenarie (Treasure trove!)The whole project sounds lush and romantic - a pleasure to plan and execute.

Hello, Bart, and welcome to the forum. I hope we'll be hearing a lot more from you as you continue with your projects. As far as Mme. E. Souffrain is concerned, I don't believe this rose is available here, or perhaps I should say I've not seen it offered here.

As far as E. Veyrat Hermanos is concerned, I wonder whether it's possible your conditions don't suit it. This rose grew like a weed for me and bloomed within the first six months. I had it against a wall that had morning sun only but I live in a warm inland Mediterranean hilly area with lots of solar radiation. I grow Reve d'Or and it does seem to have rather pliable branches and has good rebloom. Have you considered Cl. Lady Hillingdon, by the way? I don't know if it meets your criteria since I've only grown it against a fence but it does get quite large, and I don't recall that it was terribly rigid or thorny. Rebloom was quite good.

Ingrid

Campanula, thank you so much for posting that long list for me and going to so much trouble! This is VERY useful, because it also suggests what TYPES of roses, I mean in the sense of families, etc., might be most adapted.For example, I see that the great majority of the ones on the list are basically ramblers.However, I take your point about the lack of distinction element. For example, I have a Desprez a Fleurs Jaune that has to be moved (it's very unhappy where it presently is). I thought about using this for the catenary but decided against it, for fear that DFJ would just get too big (besides,I think it might enjoy some afternoon shade)I assume that Tony Lord is a UK writer/gardener? Because climate must be taken into account as well.In the Botanica rose book, they put UK and Italy in the same USDA zones, more or less,but the two climates are SO different(though this fall,I must say that it feels like rainy Ireland here ;it just doesn't seem to want to stop.)I want to look up some of the ones on the list that I don't know. One oddity: for me the Supers Dorothy and Excelsa are definitely out of the running; neither of these two seems to want to even CLIMB in my garden!In fact, I probably will eventually buy a new plant of Super D (it is just so beautiful) and try again from scratch;maybe try acidifying the soil,I have this alkaline Appenine soil.
O,Ingrid,EV Hermanos is growing like a weed for me ,too, but a non-flowering weed! Let me correct that:the problem is that the flowers won't open.At first, it was growing in what I must admit was wretched soil; the plant grew,and it was covered with buds,which all refused to open,even though the weather was dry. I moved it last year and put it in good soil,yet this year it still did the same thing as far as blooming goes:lots of buds,none of which manage to open really,they just ball,or rot or something.Now, with all the rain, the plant is growing like a maniac,putting out 2-3 meter long canes,very flexible and practically thornless.If only it would bloom,as a green plant it's great, but we don't grow roses for foliage really.I'll give it another season,but if it doesn't do something good soon as far as flowering is concerned, I'm afraid it'l get the shovel
Yesterday I sent an e-mail to a German company ,asking if they can ship to Italy (I can't read German, so hopefully someone there can read English) I really hope they will answer me,because I would so like to order some of their rose, two of which I am thinking of specifically for the catenary: Henri Barruet and Asta Von Parpart.These are both rambler types, supposedly with some potential re-bloom.If I really do manage to get a hold of these two roses, I'm thinking of the following colour scheme for the catenary: Mme.E.Souffrain and Henri Barruet on the end posts, Emmanuela De Mouchy and Elie Beauvilain on the next two, and the dark Asta Von Parpart in the center.If they don't answer me, though,maybe Paul Transon would be good in place of Henri Barruet... cheers, bart

Thanks to help from a forum friend that's a lot more knowledgeable than me,I contacted a French company (Roses Loubert), and have ordered both Henri Barruet and Asta Von P. But 2 experts on that forum don't think Asta would work on a swag, being a Multiflora! So I got another one, called Mosel. On HMF this is described as a "Lambertiana" rambler. Anyone know anything about it? Thanks, bart

I thought Lambertianas were basically hybrid multifloras? I don't know Mosel, Bart, in fact, the only Lambertiana I am at all familiar with is Aglaia, which is quite a vigorous rose. It was in our local botanics, growing over a wooden arch and easily grew 5m as well as being quite bushy too.

I looked on HMF for "Lambertiana";they define them simply as roses bred by Lambert! (fat lot of help that is).So, I looked up Mosel again;you are right, Campanula, it is a hybrid multiflora. Now, I don't know if you've been following my conversation with Hannes on the PB forum re Joasine Hanet and Asta Von Parpart; neither he nor the Old Rosarian think this latter would work for a catenary; the comments suggested to me that Asta,being a hybrid multiflora would be too rigid, with too many basals.it's parents are an HPerpetual and a hybrid Multiflora. On the other hand, Mosel's parents are Trier and a climber,Madame something-or-other. At this point, none of the dark er coloured ones seems sure-fire to me. Marie Nabonnand and Zephirine Drouhin I already have and don't want to move,ditto Mme. Solvay. Hopefully, Hannes will recall something about Mosel's habit, but at this point I'm beginning to think that I should take perhaps an experimental attitude,and try either Mosel or Pink Cloud.That way, I'll have three fairly safe bets (Emmanuela de Mouchy, Elie Beauvilain,and Henri Barruet) and two maybes: Mme.E. Souffrain and Mosel/Pink Cloud,and if these don't work, I'll replace them with some one of the others.Oh, I forgot: Alexander Girault. Ilove that ,have a couple of them, but the oldest one has gotten huge this year,and has more basals than I can count,so if too many basals is a reason for exclusion,Alex. G would be out.Multiflora hybrids might work;I had two Multiflora Carneas,and both sent out some very long canes...I read somewhere that Aglaia is one of Trier's parents...cheers,bart

Hmm, I looked up Mosel on HMF - that is a lovely rose. One thing that struck me was the range of size - 200cm - 400cm which always makes me think aha, pruning fun, as a rose which has such a variable range is, to my mind, nicely malleable. Hey, I forgot I am also growing Goldfinch, another multiflora, in exactly the same way as you except I am using posts and wire as a narrow (and low, 4foot) edging.

After much hemming and hawing, I think I'm going to go for Mosel in the center , and maybe also Noella Nabonnand;you know, one on each side of the central post,one trained to the left and one to the right...that way, if they don't get real big, they'll still work. Or does that sound too daring? What do you think, forum friends? cheers, bart

This thread is very interesting. Now I'm wondering about the details of training the roses on the catenaries.

I've been studying climbers and rabmblers and came up with these possibilities: Summer Wine, Sombreuil, Soaring Spirits, Gardenia, White New Dawn, Frances E. Lester.

I'm wondering if Souvenir de Mme. Leonie Viennot would be a good candidate as well.

Hello, once again, it's bart and her rose catenary or swag. I've recieved my plants,and looking at them have made some revisions in my plans. I got an enormous grafted Pink Mermaid from Loubert, whereas my own-root Emmanuela de Mouchy is small and I think might be better off in a pot for the first season. So, now I'm thinking about the following arrangement:the single-flowered Pink Mermaid on the center post,flanked by the purpley Mosel and Noella Nabonnand,and on the ends,Henri Barruet and Clbg.Paul Lede.Does anyone know if Noella Nabonnand would get big enough and be flexible enough for the job? Or do you think it's be better to stick with the plan of: Mosel in center, flanked by the orangey-pinks Paul Lede and Elie Beauvilain, with Pink Mermaid and Henri Barruet on the ends? thanks for any comments and/or considerations. regards, bart