Oh yeah... I feel your pain! When I read your title, I thought, "She's been to my yard!!!". I don't have any advice, but I'll bet the folks from your area can offer some suggestions. Hang in there!

Cathy

I would want to know a little more...were you planting own roots or grafted? How large were they--did you put bands directly in the ground or grow them on in pots first? What is your soil like? How did you amend it? Intense heat might not necessarily be the entire problem.

Hey Ingrid:

Sorry to hear about your frustration. We have a few shady areas in the yard that I'm trying to insist roses grow in:) I'm planting Lyda Rose in one of those areas this fall, and I have two Cl. Icebergs growing in pretty light sun. The most mature Cl. Iceberg this year bloomed pretty reliably considering it now lives in the shadow of a big willow tree.

The two roses planted in the shadier side of the rose bed out back are Mary Rose and a young Knockout. The KO bloomed very sparingly, I felt kind of sorry for it. Mary Rose did much better in morning sun only. Next year I'm going to try Buff Beauty over there also where it will get morning sun only.

Finally I had the rose Vineyard Song planted this spring out in the front in prime real estate. It sat there absolutely pouting for months until I moved it into a pot one day, put it in light sun on the patio and forgot about it. Now it is delighted. So next year I hope to plant it in the ground in an area that gets half day sun.

Not sure about the morning shade/afternoon heat question. I can tell you I had Caramel Antike in a pot all spring/summer in the hottest part of our yard and it did great. Still young as a bareroot from Palatine it grew and grew and did not seem to mind the reflective heat of the fence it sat right next to and being stuck in a nursery pot.

My answer barely belongs on the Antique Forum and is kinda long, sorry. Hope it helps.

Kate

Gail, my soil in most areas is decomposed granite although closer to the house, where grass formerly grew, it looks richer and darker. I don't think that's a problem because tea roses that grow along an outside perimeter and have sun all day long are doing fine. Most are own-root bands which I've planted straight in the ground. Again, the roses in full sun started growing immediately. We always use partially bagged soil and partially native soil and amend with some alfalfa meal. Later I fertilize with alfalfa meal several times and have lately also started using some horse manure. Coffee grounds are spread routinely. From what I can see hot afternoon sun and too much shade seem to be the drawbacks to success.

Your garden is one of the ones I envy, it is so gorgeous. However, I also know how much work you put into it.

Cathy, thanks for your support. Misery does love company and it's always good to know I'm not the only one.

Kate, I appreciate your thoughts. Mary Rose I had grown elsewhere in full sun and wasn't aware that it might like part shade. I did like this rose except it seemed rather thorny to me and the blooms shattered rather quickly. But I'll definitely keep it in mind.

Ingrid

Many of my roses are in morning shade and afternoon sun. But, some roses still get at least 6 hours of afternoon sun while others might be lucky to get 4. Sally Holmes gets sun from around 12noon to 4pm, with slight differences as the seasons change. She seems to be fine with the heat and shade and blooms most of the time. Madame Boll, Marchesa Bocella, Rose du Roi (commerce) and Puerto Rico in similar circumstances. They all do quite well. Gruss an Aachen and Marie Pavie also do well in about 4 hours of midday sun--12noon to 4ish. I might add one more thing--for me with own root roses, 2 years is not enough time to tell if a rose is working or not unless it has actually died. Many of my roses are just now taking off in their 3rd year in the ground. Also, many of the Teas exhibit some PM during the hot summer months, but as they mature, the PM is diminishing. Here it gets to be in the 80's and 90's most of the summer months (Norcal) and my roses seem to tolerate the heat relatively well. How hot does it get in your area?

A LOT of our roses get half-day sun only. To be honest, many of them seem
to do better that way.
That might not always have been true, but our summers have grown so much hotter!
And you have a hotter situation than we do.

Roses which were became well established when the climate was gentler, seem
to handle the now-intense sun well.
But cane burn has become a real problem for roses not heavily foliaged.

We have a 20-y-o Baronne Prevost which has out-lived every other HP we
have ever grown.
It grows in an "L" of our retaining wall, and has direct sun for
perhaps 5 hours a day at the most. I really think that's what has
preserved it, where others of its kind failed.
We have even grown some roses under the deep shade of a monstrous
seedling avocado, with surprisingly good results.

Jeri

Ingrid - I should probably not be posting on this, as this is my first year with old roses. BUT - my sun/shade situation is very similar. My roses are in pots (and must remain so, although in bigger ones next year) on my west-facing balcony, so they are in shade until early afternoon (about 1:00 - 2:00). In the summer, when I moved in here, it really got too hot for at least one of them (Nigrette, a small early HT), so I moved it to a more dappled spot. In fact, I've been moving them all around all year in an effort to find good sun for them. Now I've got them all at one end where they get sun from about 1:30 or 2:00 until four or five o'clock (the time change has me all confused), and they seem very happy, though I'll probably have to rearrange them in midsummer next year. In another post a few weeks ago, I asked for advice about a really long cane thrown out by my Mme. Antoine Mari - I got a lot of helpful responses, one of which was from Anita, who asked me if they were getting enough sun. I realized that they weren't, and took steps (with the aid of our wonderful maintenance man here) to bring a bit more sun to the end of the balcony outside my bedroom, where they are now. They seem to be really happy, although I don't think they were ever especially UNhappy...I think they're going to be fine. None of them have bloomed much for me, but I think they'll really take off next year, as they look so healthy.
I have several Teas, a few old HTs, and one Polyantha. The poly is Mlle. Cecile Brunner, which Vintage Gardens has listed as one that will tolerate shade. I have seen it growing in hot places (Central California) all my life, and it always looks great, so I think it must be very adaptable. I have the shrub, but the climber is wonderful too. If you have the Vintage catalog, there is a list of shade-tolerant roses of different classes at the back on page 339. If you don't have the catalog, let me know, and I will post the list.
Another thought: could it be that the roses which originated in the Middle East and other Mediterranean areas be more amenable to conditions like yours? I haven't read anything on that subject, it just seems to make sense to me. For instance, I think Rose de Rescht is from somewhere in the Middle East.
Well, lots of words from a real non-expert, but thought I would weigh in just in case.
Laura

Most are own-root bands which I've planted straight in the ground.

Perhaps try potting up and getting a 2 gallon-sized rootball before you put it in the ground? I've never had a good result from a band put directly in the ground. In contrast, a 2 gallon-sized rootball usually takes off quickly.

HOOV SAID: I've never had a good result from a band put directly in the ground. In contrast, a 2 gallon-sized rootball usually takes off quickly.

*** I agree!

I know people have said that it works for them -- but we have never seen
good results here, done that way.
We pot up, usually to a 1-G., and (because our conditions can be rough)
often from a 1- to a 5-G -- waiting to pot up when we could see roots
at the bottom of the pot.
We do the same thing with cuttings that we have started here.
Yes, it is a royal pain to nurse them up that way, but for us, it is better.

Jeri

Hi Ingrid, I feel for you because I know how much you lov e roses. I think the advice to pot them up once or even twice is good...a bigger plant will have more oomph. Also, have you brought in any compost or manure? In my area there is a public leaf composting facility where you can get a big load of it for ten dollars. YOu might check and see if there is anything like that, though I bet in your area there are not that many deciduous trees. STill, adding organic stuff to a rocky soil will help it retain water. Peat moss to me is iffy but is reputedly a good water retainer once you get it wet. You might get a soil test from your local agriculture extension agent.

You might check with the Florida and Arizona forums. I THINK I saw once where a Floridian sinks large pots in dry areas and plants in those pots. I don't know why that would help...maybe the moisture wouldn't leach out into the surrounding soil as fast. I am trying it in a dry area in my yard. I have some arid areas where it's hard to get roses to grow. I think many roses grow in the middle east though, so once they get established, they can take a lot of heat and drought. Maybe potting them up would really make a difference. I just got through planting some big ones in challenging spots.

Hybrid musks can take some shade. I have a Ballerina growing and blooming well under a tree.
Good luck,
Linda

Ingrid, I can echo what others said about Spice doing well in a partially shaded position. Mine is on the northeast side at the corner of a deck and does well. It is two years old now and has produced many, many white fragrant blooms.

I gardened in Dallas and grew antique roses for a couple of years - think weeks upon weeks of 100+ temps - Archduke Charles, Marie Pavie, Climbing Pinkie, Duchesse du Brabant and Katie Road Pink never flinched at the heat and sun. Mine were from ARE, though, so were not bands. I just know these can take the heat and sun and less than wonderful soil.

My conditions now are a lot different than yours, but here, 2 yo Puerto Rico does well in a lot of shade and interestingly, so does Mrs. BR Cant, who is planted between two pine trees and gets am sun only. I really thought I'd have to move her, but she has had no bs and has bloomed a lot for a baby in the shade. I have no idea how she'll do long term, though.

Best wishes, Ingrid; I know that you'll find some way to make your reality fit your dreams.

Ingrid, I have those same conditions also. The garden faces a bit to the northwest and usually gets sun after 12:30 or 1:00. I am only now incorporating tea roses into that border but so far most of my roses do okay, some mildew and rust but usually after summer when there is even less sun. I believe my hybrid musk Jeri Jennings will be fine where it is only no blooms for a good while. Patience is my mantra. Others are waiting in 1 gal. pots until I decide where the best place is for them to go. I'm lucky to have my sunny spots at the garden center where they can get good sun and rich soil all day. When something does not do well at my house I dig it up and find a place for it over there. I have not yet tried putting a band directly into the ground. I figure a little rich potting soil is a better start for them. Also, you mentioned a ficus tree in your yard. Any way to make it go away???
Mary

I so appreciate all your comments. Overall I don't think planting bands into the ground is the problem except for the polyanthas that were planted in the spring and experienced the hot afternoon sun a few months later. All the tea roses I planted as bands in full sun have done very well. A five-gallon Gourmet Popcorn I planted in a too-shady spot declined slowly to where it bloomed very little and became gangly. It's now been replanted in a sunny spot and has buds in November. I really think the problem is 90% location. That's the reason I inquired about roses for shady locations and for afternoon sun.

I wish I could get rid of the ficus but it's the one thing that shades the front of the house and it would be much hotter without it there. We have summer temperatures in the high nineties but it seems much hotter with the many large boulders and bare hillsides retaining the heat and the 1500 foot elevation and very low humidity.

Thank you all for the rose recommendations. I'm certainly going to take note of them and consider them for future plantings. Also, when I plant roses in the hot afternoon sun areas I'll first grow them on in pots to give them a better start.

Ingrid

Hi, Ingrid, I feel like we're twins on opposite coasts. My problem is keeping leaves on my bushes. My front garden gets all HOT sun from 10am until sunset, and I found that they all seemed to breathe a sigh of relief when I put down a thick layer of oak sawdust in August. I wish I had been able to get hardwood chips, and I'm hoping I did not do a bad thing putting down the sawdust, but that's another issue. I think the thick mulch keeps the roots cooler as well as holding the moisture better. The surface of my soil was like a dust bowl after the horse manure compost ran out of steam. I read that the fine roots of young roses do not like the hot soil that comes between waterings.

Also, out of desperation I use Fafard's Soil Conditioner (finely ground pine bark), bagged manure compost and bagged topsoil to amend (replace is probably a better word) my limey sand. I remove a good 8" of native ground (hardpacked sand) and then combine enough amendments to bring it level. I also add a LOT of food at this point since I don't think my soil has any in it. I add garden sulfur, greensand (though I have run out), lots of alfalfa pellets, Milorganite, cottonseed meal, RoseTone, and sometimes bloodmeal. Earthworms love the milorganite and it doesn't burn. I was told last year that I was using too much nitrogen, but that first bed is doing the best. I was just working on Maggie's bed today, and it is nice black soil now (but I had used horse manure compost there instead of the bagged stuff and topsoil.) My point is that I think amending (or getting rid of) your hot native soil may provide a cooler, more hospitable home for your roses. If the roots are cooler and moist, maybe the sun won't be so hard on them.

I have Bubble Bath (a Hybrid Musk said to be "very tolerant" of shade is a spot that might be getting 3 hours of sun. It was a real act of faith, watching it not do much since March, but it is putting on canes and new growth and has had 2 or 3 bloom clusters recently. And it's already pretty big. I also have Arcadia Louisiana Tea in pretty much total shade all summer under & in between 2 oak trees (accidental - planted in March when the sun was lower), and it had almost no BS and did bloom some. So it is at least shade-tolerant.

I know just how you're feeling. I move from the remorseful "Did I make a BIG mistake tearing up my yard for roses?" to sheer exasperation that nothing I do seems to help. But I'm holding on to everyone's mantra "Roses Take Time". I'm thinking next year will be better, and the year after that will be better again. If you could see all my leafless or at best shrunken-leafed roses, you'd know we are kindred spirits. If I don't run out of money for fertilizer before these roses "establish", I think I'll be OK.

Do you have Louis Philippe? I told DH today, if it gets to that point, I'll take everything out and replace them with LP. I love that rose. His beautiful red & pink flowers are just getting bigger now that we're not in the 90s (just UP TO 90) and his smell of Cherry candy is wonderful. No BS, just quickly rotating defoliating and refoliating. And Natchitoches Noisette doesn't seem to mind the heat at all.

I do think summer is our winter in that the roses just seem to stop and go dormant. Mine in the front were nothing but sticks for almost 2 months. And now they only have teensy little leaves on them.

Don't give up, Ingrid, spring is coming.

Sherry

Sherry, if you've told me before, I've forgotten ... where did you get your 'Louis Philippe'?

Randy

Randy, I have 2, and I got them from 2 local nurseries.

Sherry

I would echo what others have said about the bands...I always grow mine in pots for a while. I just got an order from Vintage, and all the bands are in gallon pots and a few in 2 gallons, and they will stay there at least until March when they will go in the ground.

Aloha Ingrid-

Rose growihg can be a little maddening, can't it :) i have been thinking about your post and hope you don't mind if i share a few thoughts.

to me 15 roses doing well is GREAT! 'the right plant for the right place' is true i think, even for roses.

there are quite a few roses in my garden almost certainly not in the right place-not even remotely close to the right place, to be perfectly honest. i am breaking this news to myself gently. replacements have been ordered and in a few months they will help convince me that the underperformers really are terminal. so this is the silver lining to roses that don't do well in my conditions-i get to try new ones!

I should state first that I don't have room for climbers or very large roses.

Forgive me but i must ask-Are you sure? even if it laughs at your conditions and smothers its giant self in heartstopping blooms year round ; ) big roses can add a sense of drama and abundance to a small space.

i receive monthly articles from an agroforestry publication. a few months back Danny Blank/ECHO wrote about the soil food web-the bacteria and fungi that populate soils. He wrote,

"Water use efficiency has been improved by as much as 50% in Australia by reintroducing missing soil biology grown with half of the water due to the improved soil structure and water dynamics that come with a healthy soil food web (Ingham, An Introduction to the Soil Foodweb)."

So my long and wordy point is that not only will your roses get better with age, so will your soil. It sounds like you are doing all the right things, you just need time. One more word on this topic. Awhile back you complained that your mulch often blew away after you applied it. i had some trouble getting my mulch to stay put until i started hauling coarsely shredded greenwaste. It's not the prettiest material but it forms a stable mat that doesn't blow or wash away. It is not chicken proof but that may not be a problem for you ; )

You asked for rose suggestions and while i can't offer you any myself, i will link to a discussion you might find interesting, it's towards the bottom of the page.

One day your garden will be as you dream it, Ingrid. i have a strong feeling you will not stop until it is.

Blessings

Here is a link that might be useful: Just ask Alice

big roses can add a sense of drama and abundance to a small space.

*** Sure can! Moreover, one really big rose, used cleverly, can take the place of multiple smaller, perhaps fussier roses.
As the problem of providing sufficient water looms larger on my horizon, I am grateful for several very large roses.
I'm going to be able to remove many smaller roses that are not particularly vital to me, knowing that the garden's not going to look empty without them.
The big ones will continue to hold their places, and do just fine, sharing what water we have.

Jeri

Ingrid--What I have noticed here is that when I have made the mistake to plant Noisettes directly into the ground from bands, they failed on both occasions. Now, I listen to Gregg's (Vintage Gardens) advice and plant all bands up into 1 gallon pots for about 2 months or until substantial growth is displayed. I only mention this, because in your original post you mentioned your problem with Noisettes. Vintage will not replace a failed band unless it has been potted up for a while after purchase, so I think that this advice is quite sound. Obviously, some roses will manage planted in the ground directly from bands, but I think it is wise to always pot up the roses first. That way, I make no mistakes.

In any case, your roses will come around. Just give them time. Of course, some roses simply will not do well in a particular climate and should be removed to make room for roses that will flourish! This is an ongoing experiment in my garden. I just removed a couple of roses to make space for some roses that will better (hopefully) suit their environs.

jfoodie, I wish I'd known that noisettes need to be potted up because, no matter what I do, they don't want to grow. Teas and chinas do fine for me without being potted up but the noisettes failed miserably. That's a very interesting observation.

I do already have some climbers, Reve d'Or, Climbing Pinkie, Celine Forestier, Jasmina (new and tiny) and Casino (in too much shade). Also Mutabilis has already grown quite large in two years, even in its very shady position. I just meant that at this point I don't have room for any more. And, also, I have E. Veyrat Hermanos which I'm growing cascading down a hill rather than as a climber. I'll be interested to see how that works out.

Of course you're right about being patient and continuing to amend the soil and waiting for things to get better. And mauirose, thank you for the link "just ask Alice" which contains some very pertinent information. You've all warmed my heart with your encouragement and advice; I so appreciate all your kindness. You're right, trial and error is certainly involved. Jeri, you mentioned Ambridge Rose, which I had years ago and got rid of after a few weeks; the rust was incredible! I just thought it was me; good to know it's not.

Now that the cooler season is coming I'm sure there will be improvement in the roses that baked in the afternoon sun. Sherry, I'm amazed at all the things you've done to improve your soil; I'm really impressed with your hard work and it can't have been cheap either. I definitely plan to get more horse manure and add other amendments to create a friendlier environment for my roses. I do think the leaf mulch that stays in place and gets watered in does help to improve the soil.

Thank you, all my rose friends.

Ingrid

Ingrid, the good thing about already having the roses in the ground is that now all you have to do is mulch them with a thick compost - horse manure or homemade or whatever. The worms and microbes will incorporate it down into the soil. I'm reading a book about Difficult Soils, specifically limey soil. And the best thing I read was that limey soil can be improved just by keeping it thickly mulched with organics. The thing is you don't want it to dry out. Even if you don't have limey soil, I would think that's a good habit. Now I have to find a new horse manure compost source - a free one, that is!

Your climbers sound wonderful. It's so neat that we have so many of the same roses. Post a photo of EVH running downhill soon!

BTW, I only have ONE potted rose at this moment. All of them but this one are in the ground!!! (Except the 4 that died! I almost think it was a GOOD thing they died. Whew!) DH said to me today "And now you're going to buy some more?" I thought that was awfully glib of him after a year and a half of digging! I do have one in the mail now, but who's counting??

Sherry

Ingrid........

I can only comment about planting roses where they get morning sun and get baked in hot afternoon sun. I don't have any shade in my planting area. Our soil conditions are very different. I am planting in glacier slurry, which consists of rocks smaller than my fist and large gravel-type rocks with clay soil tightly compacted during the ice age. It is impossible to use a shovel to dig any kind of a rose hole in this stuff. I have to use a pick to break up the rocks, then shovel them out. I water test for drainage for every rose hole.

It's very possible that your noisettes failed due to drainage problems. Unless you have tested your rose holes for drainage, you don't know if you have a boulder directly beneath the rose so that it doesn't allow for good drainage.

I agree that bands should be potted up in at least a gallon sized pot. This allows the plant to grow a larger root system to take moisture up to the top of the plant. I also dig BIG holes for two reasons: 1) I have to dig a hole deep enough so that if the rose hole drains slowly, any standing water is generally below the root system; and 2) I want to have the newly planted rose to have enough room to grow a larger root system so that they can stand up to the heat. My BIG rose holes, even for 1 gallon plants, are at least 2-3 feet deep and wide. (I have dug a few bathtub sized holes for smaller roses that I could plant closer together.)

My summer temps are triple digits weeks at a time. This summer, I found that if I give the roses a water spray mid-afternoon, they do not show any stress from the heat. The water spray helps the plant because the rose absorbs moisture through the leaves. Just watering the base of the rose requires the plant to pull all of the moisture up through the canes. For me, I can spray all of the roses in my back yard within 10 to 15 minutes. You can actually see the roses perk up. And, yes, I miss a day now and then, but the roses can handle it.

Smiles,
Lyn

Ingrid, you know that I know less than nothing about growing roses in California, but it seems that soil ammendments and potting the bands up for a year would be a good way to go in any climate. I pot my bands up every year and plant them when I see roots at the bottom of the pot. It takes some bands longer than others to take off and grow. We started out with hard red clay and it has taken a few years to bring enough ammendments in to make a difference but we did it a little every year until we now have soil I can dig in without a pick axe and that the plants love and thrive in. Honestly, I think your garden can be what you envision with a little time and maybe trying a couple of different things. Most of my roses are in unrelenting hot sun and they do fine. Some get a lot of shade and the right rose will work in those area's in my climate. Please don't be discouraged.

Carol

Hi Ingrid, I do understand and sympathize. I've done alot of pondering this summer about growing roses. As an old experienced gardener I can say that any plant grown where it truly belongs thrives easily. Perhaps where most of us live we have to fight to grow roses well. I know that most roses don't like hot weather. This summer I tried very hard to make some of my roses happy with extra food water and mulch. They just sulked until the cooler weather came. I've read that rose roots stop growing at 70 degress in the soil. I imagine your light well draining soil would be warmer than my heavey clay. I think you are on to something by growing teas and chinas. They take the heat better.
As far as shade goes, my best shade roses are Bubble Bath and Ballerina. Bubblebath just seems foolproof in the shade. Also my roses that get morning sun and afternoon shade are far happier in the summer. Below the house I have a shadey area where I don't try to grow roses. I have collected and planted some wonderful things and it has become one of the nicest spots in my garden.
I think we and our gardens evolve and that is part of the pleasure of gardening. You've really done so well with your spot and I know it will get better as time goes by.

Ambridge Rose,- the rust was incredible! I just thought it was me; good to know it's not.

*** Sure isn't! Now, don't you feel better???

Now that the cooler season is coming I'm sure there will be improvement in the roses that baked in the afternoon sun.

*** I LOVE Southern California's winter (when we get one). The days
are shorter -- and used to be cooler -- and if we get some rain, that
really helps roses, and other plants as well.
During a good, reasonably-wet SoCal winter, roses can really put
some energy into roots, to support next spring's bloom, and next summer's
growth.
Of course, here we are in almost mid-November, and temperatures
in the 90's are predicted by the end of the coming work week.
Ya just can't win 'fer losin'.

Jeri

Schenk, The Complete Shade Gardener (1984, Houghton Mifflin, Boston) makes this statement:

Hybrid Musk Roses and the climbing roses will flower in full summer shade if they receive sun in spring, the season when the set their flower buds. Other roses, though they prefer sun, will accept half shade

Randy, Rogue Valley has Louis Philippe. I have it on order for next spring.

Thanks, Linda!

Randy

It does seem that I'm not the only one who has problems with less than optimal soil and hot temperatures. Mendocine rose, I've also noticed that roses just don't want to perform when it's hot, no matter what you do for them. They just seem to agree to exist until it's cooler. Bubble Bath sounds wonderful but unfortunately my garden is divided into numerous smaller sections near the house and BB is probably too large. I have a hot-afternoon area where Spirit of Freedom is sulking and may need to rethink what to put there. Perhaps a large tea rose might be a good idea. I noticed Vintage will have Cl. Lady Hillingdon, unless it's already sold out. I just have a hard time waiting three years for climbers to perform.

E. Veyrat Hermanos is small now because I moved it from another location (I didn't know it would get so large) and chopped it down before moving it. But, it's putting on new growth pronto! If and when it blooms I'll certainly post a picture.

Thanks for all the nice additional comments. It's really raised my spirits to hear from everyone.

Ingrid

Ingrid, good news!! Just noticed yesterday that Parade is popping new shoots all over including along the naked lower parts of the big canes. And when I got out of the car after work this evening, I looked down, and there were normal sized, green leaves on Marie Pavie! Then I walked toward the front door, and Mme Caroline Testout had two 3" shoots low down on one of the big canes plus sprouts all over. It seems like everything's popping. The nights here have been in the 50's and 40's lately, and the days in the 80's and 70's. The roses seem to be doing what experienced rose gardeners have said they would do. Glory be!! I'm excited. So watch your thermometer, Ingrid, cooler days (and nights) are coming. All will be well. And probably by next summer these babies will be much better able to handle the heat.

Sherry

Dear Ingrid,
I'm really busy those days, but I would really like to help you as much as I can. You are experiencing climate and soil conditions very similar to mine.
I didn't have the time to read all the comments, so excuse me if I repeat something.

A few notes to start ...
1) NOT all Teas and Chinas love heat. They thrive when there's no freezing time, and where they could enjoy a long growing season. But many of them HATE hot climates. And many HATE bright sun exposure as well as temperatures which rise and fall abruptly in a few hours. Some varieties burn in a few minutes even under bright, late october sun (for instance, the beloved 'Archiduc Joseph'/'Monsieur Tillier'), 'cause they open in the early morning, when the air is humid and cool, and petals did not have as much substance to withstand the following, burning sun (even if temperatures ar not scorching )and dry air.
So, it's really important to choose the right ones. 'Marie van Houtte' is a winner, as 'Mme Berkeley', etc.
Chinas like 'Arethusa' or 'Unermudliche', 'Archiduc Charles'... the worst ever, whereas they are good for semi shaded positions.

2) Forgot all the coltural imputs from temperate climate books!! You have a different climate, and you have to cope with it.

A few tips, from my garden experience.

1 - Rose plants hate to have neighbouring plants competing with them to water and food, but the light, spotted shade provided by high trees is really helpful (best if they are deciduous)
2 - Always dig a planting hole as large as you can, and add not only as much organic matter you can, but if it's possible, as much heavy soil you can.
3 - Forget drainage!!! I use to put plastic sheets in the bottom of my planting holes! This help to retain water (like "water retaining" pots...)and keep the soil constantly moist.
4 - Always use mulch, but in a very large area around the bush, not only near his base.
5 -Try every way to shade the soil: ground covers, thick layers of mulch, etc. Exposed soil tend to become very very hot (I've found exposed soil temperatures of average 65 C -150 °F - in early summer), warmin' up the air near the soil, and burning your plants.
6 - If necessary, shade young plants until they are established, or large enough to shade at least their base.
7 - Summer is not the time to enjoy roses in mediterranean climates. We have "only" autumn, winter and spring do to that ;o)

... that's all, at the moment ;o)

Ciao!
Maurizio

Sherry, I'm so glad your roses are perking up! That's always such a thrill. Some of mine have started to do the same thing but now this weekend is supposed to be in the nineties again. I don't remember this ever happening this late in the year and I do think global warming has become a harsh reality.

Maurizio, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your extensive post, especially since you have little time. Everything you've mentioned is extremely helpful, but the item that excites me the most is the idea of putting plastic at the bottom of the planting hole. With my soil that would be the perfect thing to do, and it would certainly help to conserve water, something that is of great importance now. If only I had known this sooner! Still, I'm always putting in new plants, not just roses, and I'll certainly give this a try.

You're right, Monsieur Tillier, which I have in full sun, does fry very quickly in the sun. I'm going to use its flowers in the house, so that they'll open inside where it's cooler. I would love to try Marie van Houtte, a rose I've always admired, if I can find a spot for such a large rose. By the way, it may interest you to know that Carding Mill has done extremely well in a very hot position (mulched and watered of course) and never stopped blooming in the heat and the leaves stayed green on a bushy, shapely plant.

With many thanks,

Ingrid

Maurizio, thank you so much for your post. Very enlightening and confirming of what I have seen. I have Mons Tillier in full sun BUT filtered sun after 5pm which I think must be helping because he has done the best of my front yard roses. I have thought for a long time that our sun here is just too hot. It's good to know that even some Teas & Chinas can be unhappy in high heat. Hopefully, they'll toughen up with age & a more extensive root system. They really did just shut down for about two and a half months, leaving lovely bare canes. Their "little tootsies" must have been roasting in my sandy soil, but I saw a difference after the sawdust mulch was added.

I had thought about using plastic in the bottom of the hole to keep the plants away from the native limey soil but didn't do it.

We have had so little rain that I think Florida is becoming more Mediterranean and less tropical - but I guess we're still a lot more humid than you.

Sherry

Ingrid, this make me really happy :o)
YOu do have to plant 'MvH', she's absolutely gorgeous, vigorous, everbloomin'... dont' be frightened by her size, she's a pretty manageable creature, as all Teas with dense growth and relatively thin branches.
When you put plastic in the bottom of your planting holes, remember that they have to be positioned at least 40 cm (1' 1/2) deep.
I do that mainly with isolated medium-small bushes, but often when I make a new bed, I dig the whole bed and put a single LARGE (LOL!) plastic sheet. this idea came to my mind, reading the system used in english books to create bog gardens... Well, I've thought, if I make a "bog bed" in a semi-desertic climate, maybe the soil would be moist, but not waterlogged. And that's how it is.
For climbers, ramblers and big, vigorous shrubs, it's sufficient to put a less permanent stuff, like thick layers of paper, or something similar, which will degradate in a few years.
A little 'Treasure Trove' from cutting, planted this way in the worst corner of my garden ("soil": 50% granite stones, 50% very poor gravelly soil) the past sping, with a planting hole of 70x70cm, 70 cm deep , watered by drip irrigation system, is now 5 meters high o_O , with 4 stout basal branches!!! She definitely had the right start! :o))

Thank you for suggesting 'Carding Mill', unfortunately this rose is not in commerce in Europe :o(
Another from Austin which is very very good in my experience is 'St. Swithun'.

"...but I guess we're still a lot more humid "
Sherry, I guess it too!!

Hugs :o)
Maurizio

"For climbers, ramblers and big, vigorous shrubs, it's sufficient to put a less permanent stuff, like thick layers of paper, or something similar, which will degradate in a few years."

Maurizio, why are climbers & big bushes different, getting newspaper in the hole rather than plastic? Do their roots go deeper?

Sherry

I have heavy clay soil, which does not drain well, but the roses seem to love it. This makes more sense now having read Maurizio's observations. I have found that planting a rose as deeply as possible seems to be best as well. I have a number of roses planted in a sump of an area. I water them about 10 minutes a week. They retain so much water that I do not need to do more. These roses perform very well, even in mostly shade (they get about 4 to 5 hours of sun a day depending on the time of year). I think Maurizio is right about keeping the roots always moist. My roses have responded well in their poorly draining environment.

jbfoodie.......

Yes, the roses do like to be kept moist, but they WILL rot if they are in standing water all of the time. The rose hole has to drain. That's why I water test every rose hole I dig in my glacier slurry. As long as there is no standing water left in the hole over night, I can go ahead and backfill the hole and plant the rose. If there is any standing water in the hole in the morning, I have to continue digging ... making the hole both wider and deeper. I don't plant anything in a hole, if I find there is standing water after my drainage test.

And, yes, roses love clay soil. I water my roses once a week and during weeks of triple digit temps, spray them in the afternoons with water. Of course, even with clay soil, mulch is important.

Smiles,
Lyn

Lyn, I had to smile at your comment about standing water. The longest time water has ever "stood" in my soil is half an hour. I certainly could use a little clay! Or maybe a lot!

Maurizio, you are such a dear man and so helpful. You must have known I would be ordering a climber and that's why you mentioned putting paper in the hole. That's exactly what I'm going to do. I'm not sure which rose to order, but it will be planted against againt a very light colored wall. I'm considering Lady Hillingdon, Alister Stella Gray, Bouqet d'Or and Comtesse de Noghera. I already have Celine Forestier, Reve d'Or, Climbing Pinkie and Jasmina. Do you have any suggestions, Maurizio? I'll be posting separately about the four roses I'm considering but would definitely value your opinion. If the background arch were not light colored I'd also consider Devoniensis. For this spot I'd really love a rose that blooms a lot.

Warm regards,

Ingrid

Hi guys :)

Sherry,
you're right, very big shrubs (such as 'Park's Yellow' of commerce) and vigorous climbers ('Cooper's Burmese', Bracteatas, Wichuranas, etc) have a strong root system, much more bigger than the largest planting hole you can dig!
So, evidently, you can avoid the little "soil pollution" it makes using plastic, puttin' bio-degradable material instead of it. This is good enough to help young plants for the first two or three years. Then, they will develop a root system able to support their large, rampant growth.

I have to specify that obviousely in heavy clay, this is not necessary. Clay is the best ever for Roses, not only because it retains moisture, but also 'cause root system of neighbouring plants develop in a different way, there's much more tapering roots than fibrous roots in trees and shrubs: this minimize root competition, which, as I've said above, Roses detest.
Where soil is light, sandy, or gravelly, or full of organic matter, roots will carry away for meters, "searching" for water (they litterally "explore" the soil) , and then, when they find it, a intricate fibrous root system develop. Very often, they find the water in YOUR ROSE planting holes (GRRRR...). What could happens is easy to visualize,not too vigorous Roses can be easily choked in a few years.

Lyn,
you're right too, Roses haven't to be grown in waterlogged soil. ;o)
I'm so envious to read that you water your plants once a week, I have to start water them once a DAY by mid May :o(((

Ingrid, I wait for the new post to discuss about climbers... ;o)

Ciao!
Maurizio

Maurizio, hopefully this isn't a hijacking of this thread, but I've been wanting to know how far out an own-root rose's roots go. Specifically, Maman Cochet, CL. I put her in a big hole with lots of organic matter hoping to ward off the rootknot nematodes. But this rose is huge & not even a year old. I can't imagine her roots staying in that hole. If the roots go out as far as the canes do, I'm in trouble. Perhaps if I heavily compost it under the whole canopy that will help with the nematodes. So how far do their roots go in sandy soil?

Sherry

Hello, Ingrid!

I've been meaning for days to add my bit to this discussion, but during these short days I'm really sleepy in the evenings. This evening I had to take a sick cat ten miles to the vet, and I guess it woke me up. Anyway.....

First, I agree with everyone else that you need to keep the roots cool, and a good organic mulch is important for that. And I agree that some way to retain water in the soil is important. I'm blessed with clay: while it's sometimes a mixed blessing, it is marvelously water retentive. I don't know how your soil behaves, but you've heard a lot from people who've had to deal with this problem.

I always read with wonder when American forumers curse their trees and the shade they produce. This is not a problem here, believe me. I love trees and shrubs: they cool the air, break the wind, and provide organic matter that enriches the soil. I'm busy planting trees and shrubs and expect them to help my roses a lot. Naturally roses need their sun and root space, but in your situation thoughtfully placed shrubs might be useful. Different trees have different kinds of roots. I loathe elms, which behave exactly as Maurizio describes; but flowering ashes and oaks, for example, are deep-rooted trees that don't go wandering about, and they do quite nicely around gardens.

This is perhaps more of an academic question in your situation, but I wonder how much water roses can take without rotting, and I think it may be quite a lot. My sister, a garden designer and lifelong gardener, thinks that they're relatively tolerant of flooding, for example. I have some roses in the middle of an intermittent drainage that has stayed moist since May and has flooded twice, and the roses are thriving. However, I lost some Gallicas that were already doing badly that were in very poor, heavy soil, and I think it was the five straight weeks of rain in late spring that did them in completely.

A lot of this is just repeating what others have said, and if my comments have any value it comes from the summer we had this year: no rain and very little irrigation for four months; full sun; strong winds for months on end. Our roses almost all lived, and in fact they didn't even suffer terribly. (They didn't flower much, but I didn't expect them to: we get a good fall flowering if we get some rain in August-September.) My guess is that if we can grow roses in those conditions, you can too.

The other thing I wanted to say is this. No matter how much you read and study, and no matter how much excellent advice you get, making a garden is very much a trial-and-error business. That's because no one's conditions are exactly like yours and so no one can tell you exactly what will work. This is the glory and the frustration of gardening. You're in that first stage where you've tried a lot of things and found out that a lot of them haven't worked, though some have been successful. Now you'll try different things and will find some more things that don't work, and some more things that DO. In time you'll become the world's greatest expert on your own garden; and your garden will be beautiful.

Melissa

Melissa, I'm glad you woke up. That was not only helpful and encouraging but also a good read. I feel better.

Thanks! Hope your cat's OK.

Sherry

And I'll learn to give roses a second chance rather than ripping them out the first or second year.

*** You know, I think that is one of the most-difficult lessons to
learn, and perhaps one of the most valuable.

Jeri

hi, Ingrid,
This has been a fun thread to read and it is always encouraging to me to read what people who have been growing gardens for a long time have to say. Other than just tell you I know you'll succeed because of your tenacity and love of roses, I read this and thought of you and a lot of us; it is from an essay by Henry Mitchell on gardeners. I'll just quote a little, but it makes me smile.

On the Defiance of Gardeners

...Wherever humans garden magnificently, there are magnificent heartbreaks. It may be 40 heifers break through the hedge after a spring shower and ... trample the labor of many years into uniform mire. It may be the gardener has nursed along his camellias for 25 years, and in one night of February they are dead. How can that be? Well, it can be...

I never see a great garden ... but I think of the calamities that have visited it, unsuspected by the delighted visitor who supposes it must be nice to garden here.

It is not nice to garden anywhere. Everywhere there are violent winds, startling once per five centuries floods, unprecedented droughts, record setting freezes, abusive and blasting heats never known before. There is no place, no garden, where these terrible things do not drive gardeners mad...

So there is no point dreading the next summer storm that, as I predict, will flatten everything. Nor is there any point dreading the winter, so soon to come, in which the temperature will drop to ten below zero and the ground freezes forty inches deep and we all say there was never such a winter since the beginning of the world. There have been such winters; there will be more.

Now the gardener is the one who has seen everything ruined so many times that (even as his pain increases with each loss) he comprehends - truly knows - that where there was a garden once, it can be again, or where there never was, there yet can be a garden so that all who see it say, "Well, you have favorable conditions here. Everything grows for you." Everything grows for everybody. Everything dies for everybody too.

There are no green thumbs or black thumbs. There are only gardeners and non gardeners. Gardeners are the ones who ruin after ruin get on with the high defiance of nature herself, creating, in the very face of her chaos and tornado, the bower of roses and the pride of irises. It sounds very well to garden a "natural way." You may see the natural way in any desert, any swamp, any leech filled laurel hell. Defiance, on the other hand, is what makes gardeners.

It seems quite mad to try to create the rose garden of your dreams in your soil and in your heat, so I know you'll do it anyway. Sometimes I think I'm quite mad to try to grow roses in my bs world, but I do it anyway. My deepest admiration to all who try to create beauty in their own desert, swamp and leech filled laurel hell. Gardeners just do it anyway. :)

duchesse, that was simply wonderful, so beautifully written and voicing our feelings with complete understanding. And the last paragraph, which is your own, was the best of all. Perhaps I am a gardener after all. As are you all.

Ingrid

I just wanted to say that I love what Melissa and Gean wrote. So true, and stated so perfectly.

Carol

Thank you, Duchesse. You just taught me a whole lot.

Sherry