you said: I had to start a new thread because my message was rejected when I tried to add to the original thread. I forgot the most important thing, adjusting the tree to Pa. I have it on the porch, wrapped with bubble wrap ( leaves , branches)and close to brick house, I am afraid it will get less attention in the barn. The porch has a roof and awning and being brick may help a couple degrees, it's between some furniture to slow winds. Ken or anyone else chime in. I want it to be cold but not to shock it. ====>>>> again.. i have no experience with this particular oak .... nor zone pushing oaks.. etc ... OK??? ===>>>> now to repeat.. you said: I have it on the porch, wrapped with bubble wrap ( leaves , branches)and close to brick house, I am afraid it will get less attention in the barn. ++>>>> it is my GUESS.. that everything is wrong with that statement ... starting from the end .... and yelling... WHAT ATTENTION DOES A DORMANT TREE NEED??? zip.. zero.. nada ... zilch ... put it in the barn.. with a little snow or ice cube.. and walk away ... bubblewrap ... WHY???? ... my fear isnt a few degrees of cold.. its that day it zooms up.. and the bubble wrap keeps it too hot.. all night long .... and.. TREES NEED AIR.. not plastic .... if its incredible loose ... maybe.. but IN THE BARN.. i probably wont need it .... YOU HAVE TO INSURE IT STAYS DORMANT.. and the wrap can screw that up .... [carp.. its evergreen isnt it???? .... man this is stumping me ... and i am admitting that.. so you dont take everything i say as gospel ... no attached garage huh????] i have one truism in the garden.. we kill more things with too much love.. than with benign neglect.. but for water ... you are going to love this thing to death ... try to avoid that .... i have to ruminate on this further .... ken

Addendum to my first post: add dog roses the the pest shrubs. I may keep a couple of these if I find I can keep them cut back to reasonable form and dimensions, but they have a tendency to grow octopus canes and sprawl all over the surrounding area, flattening their neighbors. And DH has reminded me of some plants of hawthorn. Suzy, glad to hear from you (everybody else who's interested, too), and I want to make a request: could you give me the botanical names of the plants you talk about? In many cases I don't know the plants, or may know the scientific name and not the common one. Some of my gardening is conducted in Italian after all. If you need the botanical names of any of the plants I named, let me know: I know most of them or can look them up. My basic idea is I think similar to yours: I want a woodland, slightly prettied up with appropriate plantings. I'm leaning toward native plants just because I know there's a good chance they'll grow, which in thin dry clay in shade is a major consideration; also there are plenty of nice herbaceous plants among the local flora. And I want a natural look, to employ a much abused word; I mean I mostly want plants that look as they could be natives even if they aren't. Shrubs are difficult. I want some low-growing shrubs in particular, not too showy nor too plain, and like the thought of evergreen foliage, which is almost completely absent in the local flora. This might be my chance to grow the box my soul longs for, and which is so hard to site in my conditions; and mahonias seem to like it here. I have M. aquifolium in the shade garden above the woods and it seeds itself about a bit, which is slightly alarming. Sarcococca should do well, and also Daphne odora, the only one easy to get, though it seems to need some clay under its feet: I lost two babies down there, one when the locust crashed and it ended up in sun, one that went too long without watering. All these will probably need some digging with a pick, and possibly some clay brought in. A shrub/small tree, native, that I thought of last night, is Cornus mas. This is modestly pretty in spring and might do very well along the drainage; and now that I think of it, Viburnum x burkwoodii which I have planted in various parts of the garden, tough as nails, fragrant, and handsome. Also yew would do well, if I want a column of evergreen here and there. Holly?? It's a relict species from the glacial era that grows wild here and there in the province, though not in our immediate area. A handsome low groundcover is Ruscus hypoglossum, something like our native R. aculeatus, butcher's broom but not prickly and more orderly in its growth, and very tough. Similar but taller growing is the related Danea racemosa which also does fine. I plan on keeping Vinca well away from my shade garden: too messy and invasive. Now that I think of it, how could I forget hellebores? They would seed beautifully, too. H. viridis is local and handsome, and the H. orientalis types would look at home. Let me add epimediums to the list of possibilities. I'm not thinking of roses (much), as there's not much sun for shrubby kinds and the canopy is too weak to support massive ramblers. Alas. It's not that I haven't weighed the possibilities. I think we're in about the same place in our plans: cleaning up and thinking, and starting the first plants. You're propagating on an ambitious scale compared to my few plants dug up and potted, and I suspect are going to have your woodland garden whipped into shape considerably faster than I am mine. I need to mark my baby oaks; I notice a lot of seedlings coming up, possibly in response to the cleaning up of the past couple of years. I can happily guard the oaks for posterity knowing that I have flowering ashes and maples to enjoy in the present. Silver maples (A. saccharinum) are commonly planted here, too, but with our worthy native field maples (A. campestre) I don't need them, especially since silver maples have no fall color to speak of, while the field maple can turn a good yellow. There are one or two less common local maple species, and one, I believe, colors well in fall (very rare in our native plants): I need to find out which it is, and whether I can get it (A. opalus, I think). I share your admiration for the plane, but it would be out of scale in our woods, which are sadly starved and low-growing. Paula, about the black locust, yes, it's a nitrogen fixer, but it also tends to break and fall and sucker madly. I like my trees to stay put. Since the great locust crash in the spring we've been weeding it out of the entire shade garden, and will be continuing to do so, apparently, for a long time to come. The black locust has considerable merits and is a beautiful tree, but it's not what I want here. You did remind me, though, to add laburnums to my list of possibilities: native, nitrogen fixing, and beautiful in flower. My vision at the moment is actually a modest one: I see a little woodland, with paths and steps, sunlight falling through the trees, a fallen trunk to sit on in the shade. The trees are common and of modest dimensions, such plantings as exist are humble but growing in beauty and variety as the ground becomes richer in humus and is freed of weeds and brush. The mere fact of shade is important: it's been hot and dry here for two months now, and to do down there and sit under the trees is a pleasure and refreshment in itself. Rock outcroppings, moss growing in the cooler parts. Once we get the place cleaned up I may become more ambitious. Oh, last note: I doubt I would consider tulips, which grow well here, because of the boars. Though now that we have wolves I hear their populations are dropping. Perhaps in time we'll achieve some sort of ecological equilibrium. I hope the wolves gobble down large part of our rapidly growing roe deer population as well. Melissa

Yes, withhold water now to induce dormancy.It will take a few weeks for them to show the signs unless you are starting to heat your apartment now. Putting them outside wouldn't discourage growth unless the shorter days are the onlylight source there. Cold doesn't induce dormancy, it might even invigorate them for a time.Lack of water and short days should start them into dormancy. If you do put them outside, make sure rain can't get into the pots or containers.

hi yippee, I've not done any container gardening except for houseplants and summer containers on the patio, but might be able to answer some of your questions. I'm not an expert, so anyone who has better information than I do is invited to correct me. Plants that go dormant aren't dead, they just stop growing above ground. The roots can continue to grow until the soil freezes solid. Plants need water even in winter, and pots dry out much faster and more completely than garden soil would, so you should water the plants if they are dry when not frozen. Gardeners do water their plants in winter, but usually only recently planted ones. Well established older plants have a large enough root system to survive in the ground. Evergreens need water as much as any other plant. Check the requirements of the individual plants, as some like more moisture than others, and some will rot if too wet in winter. Any plant that is 'not appropriate for you zone' will likely be killed dead if left out all winter. You should bring these plants inside, a garage or cool porch would be ideal unless they are tropical plants, in which case indoors is best. Plants that are hardy for your zone (AND good candidates for container growing) don't need to have their pots kept 'warm'. Insulating mulch is used on garden plants after the ground has frozen to keep it frozen. Freezing and thawing can heave the plants up, disturbing root systems and exposing them to winter damage. I would think that more damage would be done by drying out than by cold temperatures. And finally, plants that are advertised as having 'winter interest' may be deciduous or evergreen. Obviously, the evergreens keep their color, and some turn slightly in winter, add some interest. Plants whose leaves die in winter may drop them, but some plants keep their leaves, brown or otherwise, and can add texture. Some have beautiful branch colors or bark textures, or shapes. Red twigged dogwood and Harry Lauder's Walking Stick come to mind. Here is a link that might be useful: winter plants