Pompon de Paris and R. chinensis minima

mike_rivers

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Here in the US, Rosa Chinensis Minima usually refers to a strain of miniature seed-grown roses, sometimes called "Angel Roses" or "Fairy Roses". Thompson & Morgan used to offer packets of seed, Park Seed still does - see link. The offspring from the seeds are variable, but at least some will have double flowers.

Here is a link that might be useful: Parks Seed Page

mendocino_rose

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

There is a whole interesting story that I am ashamed to say I can't remember properly that I was told by Gregg Lowery. I guess they actually are two different roses, but maybe not always so in commerce. Apparently one of them was found growing all over a small town in Switzerland in window boxes. I'm sorry I can't remember all of it.

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melissa_thefarm
Original Author

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Mike, thanks for the info; it's quite interesting! I don't grow much from seed, roses never, but that one's tempting.

mendocino rose, That's 'Rouletii' that was found in the Swiss town and introduced into commerce. I was wondering about the relationship, if any, between 'Rouletii' and 'Pompom de Paris'. I forgot to check the Vintage catalog, as well as Jack Harkness's 'Roses'....in other words, I didn't look that hard. Bad me: I always want my information handed over on a platter. I'll go search a little harder now. Thanks.

Melissa

naplesgardener

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Melissa
when I looked up "pompon" on helpmefind it said that it's parentage is R. rouletti Correvon.

Then when I clicked on the R. rouletti link it said that it's synonym was R. chinensis minima from Switzerland. Essentially saying that R. rouletti and chinensis minima are the same thing."Gardening with Old Roses" by Scarman says that "Pompon" is a climbing sport of R. chinensis minima, the ancestor of miniature roses. It is vigourous, height 15' and reblooming.

"The Quest for the Rose" by Phillips and Rix goes into the Swiss connection.

stefanb8

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

I've always had the distinct impression that these roses are essentially synonymous, too. I'll be curious if anyone can dig up compelling evidence to the contrary - the miniaturization gene apparently comes from 'Old Blush'.

The "angel" or "fairy" roses that are sold as seed are actually polyanthas, rather than chinas, so the name Rosa chinensis isn't appropriately applied to them.

User

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Originally, the two roses 'Roulettii' and 'Pompon de Paris' were distinct cultivars. Some rosarians I know have owned roses purchased under each of these names and some say the two are slightly different, and some say they are identical. It is extremely likely that one of these varieties dominates the commercial nurseries and is sold under either name, erroneously, as the case may be. This would explain why some growers have found the two to be identical; they are in fact growing two of the exact same plant! It has also been proposed that the roses grown as 'Roulettii' and 'Pompon de Paris' may not even be the originals,but seed grown selections of one or the other.

Sean McCann is one person who has an opinion on the matter, and I quote him, speaking about 'Roulettii', 'Pompon de Paris' and R. indica pumila: "The strange thing about all of these is that they are very much alike and you really need to sit down and study the plants to find the differences. But, after careful examination, you will probably find - as I did - that Pompon de Paris and R. indica pumila are one and the same variety; R. roulettii resembles them too, but its blooms tend to be slightly smaller. These three are in similar deep rose to lavender colours, depending on where and how they are grown."

Margaret Pinney in her wonderful 1964 book The Miniature Rose Book has covered this issue extensively and gather quotes from a number of knowledgeable people. Her findings don't clear up the issues as much as they muddle them further. See for yourself:

"The tiny, two inch plant discovered in Switzerland by Major Roulet which M. Correvon grew, propagated and named Roulettii is, according to Mr. (Jan) de Vink 'not very strong and not very common.' A larger, coarser plant very like it, sold everywhere in the United States as R. roulettii is called by the European breeders and growers Pompon de Paris. But don't think that this resolves the tangle! In this country (The USA) a still larger plant, differing in some respects from what we know as R. roulettii is everywhere sold as Pompon de Paris. Mr. Roy Shepherd stares that 'Pompon de Paris appeared in Paris in 1931, R. roulettii officially about 1922. It is quite apparent that the original R. chinensis minima or Lawrenceana rose as described by earlier writers was somewhat larger in growth than R. roulettii as we know it today. In my garden, R. chinensis minima attains a height of 1 foot, whereas Roulettii, planted in the same bed, does not exceed 6 inches. Other than the size of the plant and blossom, they are identical and we can safely assume that one is a dwarf form of the other'."

Mrs Pinney goes on to quote several other authorities of her time, all of whom simply add further layers of confusion to the matter. However, she comes to a kind of conclusion towards the end by quoting one of the original owners of the famous Bobbink and Atkins:

"When I visited the Bobbink and Atkins nursery several years ago, old Mr. Bobbink told me that he believed our (American) R. roulettii to be the true Pompon de Paris. This is apparently the view held by by most European breeders, and in studying foreign pedigrees, one must take this into account."

American hybridizer Ralph Moore takes a somewhat neutral position on this matter, stating in his 1966 volume All About Miniature Roses "In Chapter 1 some of the history, discovery, and possible origin of miniature roses is given. I cannot accept this as the whole story, nor do I believe that Rosa rouletti necessarily is one of the older varieties rediscovered." Mr. Moore is of course, referring to the often-told story of the discovery of Roulettii in a Swiss window box in 1922.

So, the identity of this group of plants is a very murky one indeed, shrouded by a lack of factual written history prior to 1922, and the fact that there are probably several varieties being distributed in commerce under the wrong name(s). I have only the American 'Roulettii' obtained from Sequoia Nursery of California, and so I have no other dwarf form to compare it to. I do have the climbing form of 'Pompon de Paris' but that is hardly the plant to make comparisons with, as it is a massive plant when mature.

While this may not clear up any issues for you, I hope it has at least been insightful. You can rest assured that the identification problem has been a persistent one, and one that many people have many opinions about.

Regards,
Paul Barden

melissa_thefarm
Original Author

15 years ago

last modified: 9 years ago

Paul,
Thank you very much for that information! You've laid out the tangle for us to study, and I appreciate the variety of sources you've quoted: this looks like the textbook answer to my question. I hope others beside myself will profit from it.
Melissa

Pompon de Paris and R. chinensis minima

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Pompon de Paris and R. chinensis minima

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