Don't ask me why, but where Teas, Chinas, and Noisettes flourish where I am, Bourbons, poor dears, languish.
I don't know whether it's the climate, the pH, or a need for some winter chill, but Every one we've tried has been a failure.

Louise Odier, Mme. Isaac Pereire, Mme. Ernst Calvat (best of the lot), Maggie, et al. Disease problems (rust and mildew), failure to thrive, you name it. I've taken the pledge.

But what the heck -- TRY one or two. Your climate's way different from mine. Try Maggie -- she's a tough broad. You'll never really know, otherwise.

Jeri

In Florida and the Deep South, where the climate is not too different, the dwarf bourbons such as Souvenir de la Malmaison and its sports are considered fairly disease resistant. For me they are easier to grow and repeat better than the couple of long-caned bourbons I tried. They make naturally compact shrubs with nearly continuous bloom.

Good question, mauirose.
Sherry

I second Michaelg. A lot of gardeners grow and are happy with the small Bourbons in zone 9, Mari-Pandy could answer if this is still true in zone 10. I am in coastal zone 8 (east), I saw some large Bourbons in one garden that did not repeat at all as the owner said but SDLM, Kronprincessin Victoria are absolute champs in my garden and 2 other sports that are still babies, Mme Cornelissen (sometimes sold as Edith de Murat) and Capitaine Dyel de Graville - both are babies but already proved to be great roses.

Actually in my (probably fertile) clay soil Zephirine Drouhin does well and she did repeat even this summer under the stress of extreme drought; she just started the fall flush. But in case of ZD my experience is not widely shared among gardeners in the south.

Must admit to a bit of envy for you forumers who can visit an actual rose growing in your area or compare notes with someone in your zone. The closest we get to a rose garden here is an AARS demonstration project. I was up there last week and saw a Tahitian Sunset as big as a baby's head! Not my thing but still nice to see anything so well done.

Did see a lovely bouquet of SDLM at the county fair this year so yes, she'll probably shine for me. Thanks for the additional information on her sports. Small, disease-resistant-a sensible choice. Of course, if i was sensible, i'd stick to growing red Chinas which is what all the old timers have in their gardens ;)

Predicatably, tho, it is the long-caned beauties that call to me. A once a year show would be acceptable, even desirable-no once bloomers here only because i believe most of them need winter chill-(open to correction).

Mlle. Blanche has immigrated here because Vintage says bourbon noisette, Maggie because she's a 'tough broad', and Mme. EC because she looks so darn good-glad to hear she was 'the best of the lot'.

Maggie, Souvenir de la Malmaison, & Souvenir de St Annes are just about as tough as a china or a tea rose here. Great plants.

Randy

Lacking any winter all all, I'm not sure you'll get that once a year show. I wouldn't add any more until you find out. The SdlM family is 1/2 tea.

Just out of curiosity, I grew the pink sport of Malmaison once and remember having about two blooms from what was admittedly a young rose. People rave about these roses but I think I need enabling because I'm always reading about how slow they are to establish. Am I missing something uniquely beautiful? I'm running out of space and small, beautiful, everblooming roses are what I'm looking for.

Ingrid

Ingrid, you don't want to know how many times we tried to grow Souv. de la Malmaison here. The blooms just balled. Never saw an open bloom at all, and the plant didn't want to grow here. Mildewed ALL the time. No, Bourbons are not the best for Southern California, on the whole.
But they're beautiful in NoCalif.

Jeri

Keep an eye on that Maggie-- mine is 7 feet tall (planted last fall)! Pat at RU said, oh grow it as a climber..! La Reine Victoria, Louise Odier, Mme. Pierre Oger barely bloom, let alone rebloom here. Before I give up, I'm going to try Souvenir de St. Ann's, Mystic Beauty, and maybe Kronprincessin Victoria. There's got to be another as fantastic as Maggie, which has bloomed absolutely nonstop her first year in the garden.

I'm surprised that some of those don't do well in VA. I've seen even Zephirine Drouhin blooming well at Lynchburg City Cemetery. Heck, I thought VA was Bourbon Heaven.

Jeri

Never met a Bourbon I did'nt like I have SDLM 4 flushes at least during a season ..Kronprincessin Viktoria a big flush a 3 week break and then non stop bloomer not 1 or 2 blooms 3 to 5 blooms with buds to spare it's also sporting pink blooms this year, Capt Dyel de Graville 2 years old 3 flushes, Romaggi Plot Bourbon (new this Summer Deuil de Dr Reynaud, Catherine Guillot a gem 3 flushes and if it every arrives a second shot at Madame Cornélissen. Now Zepherine is also in the Garden a big rose but I must consider it a once bloomer with a rare repeat. SDLM stays clean Kronprincessin Viktoria get PM in fall. If I had the space I'd also have Madame Sevigne, Anaise, Eugène Desgaches and Emotion

I've wondered that myself from time to time.

Definitely try Souvenir de la Malmaison. Mine is only about a foot and a half high by two feet wide and it is nearly covered in blooms and buds right now. It thrives in the heat. The strange thing for me is that, unlike others, I have NEVER had a problem with SdlM balling, even though our climate is very humid and we get lots of rain. The flowers always open for me. I'm wondering if it has to do with the fact that it gets sun all day from the first moment it clears the horizon until it sets. Or maybe it's just a good clone. I don't know.

I'm going to be trying Eugène de Beauharnais (aka Le Grand Capitain by Vintage) which has been traditionally classed as a China, but which is believed by some to be some type of Bourbon. It reportedly loves the heat as well.

But I know how you feel. I'm terribly attracted to La Reine Victoria and her sport Madame Pierre Oger. I just ADORE that completely round cup-shaped flower. But I'm not particularly attracted to the long arching cane types that need to be staked to keep the flowers off the ground.

Anyone know of a Reine Victoria/Pierre type bloom on a short bushy plant?

'Mme. Pierre Oger' grew 14 ft tall here.
But it bloomed sparsely, and mildewed like mad.
I assume 'Reine Victoria' would do the same in my conditions.

Jeri

I forgot to write this. It probably belongs more in the old thread "you know too much about old roses when..." but...

Just tonight I was watching an old movie with Catherine Deneuve (It should be illegal to be that beautiful!), and the beginning was set on the Ile de Réunion, formerly Ile de Bourbon. Good thing I was alone or I would have blurted out loud instead of just thinking to myself--that's where the first Bourbon rose supposedly came from!!

Hi Jeri,

You must have been posting your reply as I was posting my Ile de Bourbon P.S.

You helped me make up my mind. I was deciding to try one of the two and it looks like I'll pass on MPO and try the original Reine Victoria. Vintage claims she's the shorter of the two. Probably a mistake, but you never know.

"the tall, sprawling tangle of diseased and senescent canes we so often see."

Jon! When did you sneak a peek at my garden? In the USA, a tangle of diseased and senescent canes is described as "gracefully arching."

Thanks for the detailed advice. Maybe I'll try again sometime. I have gotten better at dealing with shrubs, thanks to you and Olga.

Jon, thank you for your input. I have an own root Maggie that has been in the ground for one year and she is abot 5 feet by 5 feet. She had a bout of blackspot about a month ago, looked a little bare, and has recovered nicely. She is an excellent bloomer. I never spray her.

Maggie is looking kind of leggy and awkward, sort of like a big, healthy, well-caned hybrid tea. We are warm here most of the year. After the current blooms are done, is it O.K. to cut her back some now, or do I need to wait until Valentine's Day (our typical spring pruning time)?

The long caned Bourbons I tried early on are all gone..except for Zephirine Drouhin and Maggie. The repeat was poor, if at all. ZD repeats some during the season and since she's on a "walk-thru" arbor, she stays. Maggie is a trouper here and grows as a free-standing bush that grows into a neighboring viburnum.

SDLM and all the clan are truly good in my climate. I have few complaints about the lot of them.

I am in Northern California and grow Madame Pierre Oger, Maggie, Coquette des Blanches, Madame Isaac Periere, Gruss an Teplitz, Kronprincessin Viktoria von Preussen and, of course, Souvenir de la Malmaison. All are very healthy except some BS on MPO and MIP. MPO has two flushes for me and does get tall. I will peg MPO this year to see how she does. MIP tends to bloom about three times during the season here. Maggie and CdB are in constant bloom with the rest close behind. I love all of these Bourbons, though I am thinking of replacing MPO. The one Bourbon that stands out for me this year is CdB. This rose tends to grow fairly upright, but I have pegged her and she has responded well. I just love that she is always in bloom with no disease. Even Maggie, usually disease free, had a little PM this dry year.

Down here in S. FL I grow MIP which is a glorious huge bush that has been blooming intermitently all year. This is only her second year in the ground so Im very hopeful. SdlM and Kronprincessin Viktoria are must haves. Maggie is about 10 ft tall and always has some blooms. Honorine de Brabant is also doing well but is only 1 year old. I have a young Eugene B which is starting to bloom..actually I had forgotten I had it till I saw some blooms.

mari

I should have defined the 'long-caned' Bourbons . . . I mean in particular that little family of 'Reine Victoria', 'Mme Pierre Oger' and 'Louise Odier'.

The 'Malmaisons' are a very different family. So also are the big shrubs which will allow woody stems, like 'Honorine de Brabant', 'Adam Messerich, 'Commandant Beaurepaire', 'Charles XII' and the Mme's Isaac and Ernst. Different again - and the best for once-only pegging, are the huge once-bloomers like 'Bourbon Queen', 'Violet Queen' and 'Great Western'. 'Maggie' is a wonderful thing that we lean into the lower branches of a pear tree, combined with a late clematis, where she flowers all Summer long and is only lightly pruned.

Most of the lesser-known varieties will fit into one of these groups, each of which require a slightly different treatment to perform best.

Best wishes
Jon

Thanks for the great insight into my Bourbons! In my no-spray, zone 5 garden, they are the only roses that cause me any difficulties--PM, "few blooms, on yellowing cane, unlikely to repeat." I'll gladly take Jon's pruning advice and hope for better days. Do the "big shrubs which allow woody stems"(like my Mm Isaac Pereire)receive the same treatment?

I've had mixed results with the Bourbons in Maryland, USDA Zone 6b.

MAGGIE is a stellar plant with sweetly scented cerise flowers, reliable repeat, decent disease resistance (with infrequent spraying) and gargantuan growth habit. The flower form, however, is a bit loose for a Bourbon. A good choice for the newbie who wants a BIG specimen rose.

COQUETTE DES BLANCHES has been languishing in the pot ghetto for three years. I've finally found her a home in my mother's garden. According to a survey sponsered by the Montreal Botanical Garden, this rose had a 0-5% infection rate for black spot. It was very prone to the disease in my garden but that could be due to how stressed it was in its cramped pot. I hope she lives up to the hype because the pale pink, sweetly fragrant, blossoms are breathtakingly beautiful.

REINE VICTORIA & MME. PIERRE OGER were complete black spot disasters. They didn't bloom all that the much either. Both got shovel pruned.

SOUVENIR DE LA MALMAISON is one of my favorite roses. Constant repeat, gorgous flower form, wonderdul fragrance, good disease resistance, and nice compact growth habit. She is about 3 feet tall and planted in the front of a flower bed dominated by blue delphiniums. FANTASTIC! If I had the space I'd have five of this rose.

I missed being the first to give Jon's advice about cane removal with the LCB's because I looked in yesterday when I was supposed to be out the door going to a Heritage Roses Northwest meeting. He is so right(of course) They bloom on new wood and need constant renewal. I nib on mine all summer and head back any new basals to make them bushier. If I dont do this, even in Bourbon Heaven they do not bloom well, while the SDLM family appreciate total neglect. Since I adore those fragile looking Bone China blossoms I am more than willing to prune. Maggie oddly enough has never really done well and I think it needs more heat than I have.
Bellegallica-Raubritter Has flowers that are the closest thing I know to MPO-typically low and sprawling(It can climb with support) thornless and alas scentless and once blooming but a great mid-summer bloom. It is a favorite of mine.

patricia

Well, my Maggie cannot complain about lack of heat but I didn't see any blooms since spring on her. Granted she is yong, only in her second year so maybe I should have more patience. I had great expectations re Maggie.

I would like more Bourbons myself. I have Souv St Anne's because I can't stand roses that ball. It and ZD have been almost completely free of blackspot, except for a brief time after the terrible freeze this spring. I figured ZD wasn't blooming well this year due to the endless drought, but I don't mind doing a bit of pruning if that's what it takes for more blooms next year. I also have a small plant of Maggie which does get BS. I have wish I could get a look at some more Bourbons in Middle Tennessee to see if I could find one more with such good resistance. I have Charles Lawson too, but it tends to lose a lot of leaves in summer to BS. It's quite different anyway, in growth, thorns at the base but not further up, and the flower shape. Nothing like the others.

I've grown a number of bourbons here in 6b. The best for disease resistance for me have been Coquette des Blanches (which also repeats well, probably due to noisette blood) and Great Western, a once bloomer. GW would be easy to peg, has long flexible canes. It also suckers freely, which makes it unusual for this class.

The big, woody hulks like V. di Bologna, MIP, Mme d'Enfer and MEC are quite disease prone--spraying mandatory--and also need regular attention for pruning out unproductive and misguided wood. They are "needy" roses, but are astonishing in bloom. I found with MIP and MEC that they get better in terms of repeat as they mature (assuming care as described above).

MPO has also been a disease magnet, but repeats early and well. Louise Odier, another early one, is much better for me in the disease department.

About SDLM, many have praised it for its performance in warm zones. Here in 6b, I grew a pair for years in outdoor, above ground pots with no winter protection. So it has some winter toughness, too.

Jon, I was delighted to read your comments about the long caned Bourbons. I love my vigorous and floriferous Louise Odier, but the canes yellow and die back after a year or two. I had been blaming myself, the Bad Gardener. Now that I know it is a characteristic of the type, the guilt is gone and I can enjoy this rose freely once again.

Thanks once again.

Rosefolly

Rosefolly....I second your comment. As a newbie, I, too, have thought I was doing something wrong...I've even moved some of these roses to "better" locations....What a great thing to learn.

Robert

I do the same as Jon and Patricia and have good repeat on my LCB. They also love to be watered a lot. This really helps with repeat. I cut all older wood in the fall and shorten long cane dramatically to 4-5 feet every spring. This is really a lot considering that they will grow 12+ feet long canes in summer. This is hard to do, as Jon stated, but this way you can enjoy beautiful bushes with high quality blooms and a lot of them.
Olga

All right.....I may have found the answer to my ZD's poor repeat! I am taking Jon's advice and will prune/remove canes this spring and see how that works for me in this zone. If she weren't thornless, she would have been SP'd long ago.

Jardineratx, I am actually not sure that Jon's techniques applies to ZD. Hopefully he will respond. ZD is a climber. I personally don't grow it, but I think Jon was talking about pruning of Long cane bourbones, like Madame Isaac Perier, Reine Victoria, Mme Pierre Oger, Louise Odier, Deuil de Dr Reynaud, Mme D'Enfer, etc. ZD doesn't belomg to this group in my opinion.
Olga

Olga....now I am confused...I have a semi-mature MIP. Should I expect Reine Victora, Louise Odier, and Pierre Oger to grow in a similar way? These last mentioned roses have not taken off yet like MIP. Their initial growth does NOT seem to be similar to MIP.

More confused...Robert

Robert, to me they grow similar way. MIP is a little more vigorous ,but still belongs to the same group in my opinion. I could be wrong, of course.
The only thing I know for sure is that I treat them all the same way and they respond the same way for me in my garden. MIP canes are definitely have short life and then become nonproductive and die.
Olga

My 'Reine Victoria' has done very well. It just finished up another round of flowers. It's in a ridiculous spot so I cut it nearly to the ground every year.

SDLM has been really excellent. It may not like coastal CA but 5 miles inland it has been wonderful.

thanks Olga...maybe I don't have good clones of the others or, perhaps, they just haven't gotten themselves established yet in my garden..
Robert

Robert--I have both MIP and MPO and they do have similar growth patterns. As Olga said, MIP is more vigorous, but MPO puts out some very long canes and tends to grow very upright. I am going to start pegging MPO, while MIP is being wrapped around one of your rebar tee pees.

Thanks jbf...this is excellent and helpful information.

for me, MIP has very stout, thick canes, not necessarily growing in useful directions. MPO is tall, whippy and pretty much a straight up and down grower. Really don't have similar form. both similarly prone to spot, though.

james23, that's been my experience. I'm wondering if my MPO will grow into MIP....formwise that is.

robert

Jon,
Thanks, yet again.
Ann, who mirrors Rosefolly's experience

My MIP does have stouter canes, if you are talking about the diameter. It does, however, throw out long canes, just like MPO. MIP is not 'whip-like' as MPO is, but they do both throw out long canes, which tend to the upright position. I find MIP's canes easily trained, so if a cane is growing in an unwanted direction it is easily rectified.

jbfoodie has said in a sentence what I was struggling to explain about Madame Isaac Periere - the same, but different :) The canes are heavier, but as Olga says, they also suffer from a short productive life.

It is quite possible to grow Zepherin Drouhin and her sisters as shrubs. They make good climbers exactly because they happen to produce canes which will go woody and last much longer - so they don't have to be removed as promptly as the 'LCB's'. By using these older canes to form a framework and keeping the younger laterals to a manageable length a good shrub can be developed.

I know we all have somewhat different climates and conditions, but I think there are obviously some inherent traits in the Bourbons we can all see.

Best wishes
Jon