I use horse manure, and horse manure and well you get it. My stalls are lined with pine shavings. Not cedar. Daily the stalls are cleaned. It's like a giant litter box. Periodically the entire stall is stripped. This residue is allowed to compost with vegetable scraps and lawn clippings. After about a month it is used to top dress gardens, unused pastures and to be turned into new beds.
If I am planting new baby flowers or rose bushes, I augment native soil with older manure.
It helps with weeds and everything is growing well. As was mentioned previously the layer should not be more than 3" thick.
I wonder if the amount of rain received here spring and fall (when I apply manure) explains my success?
Jeannie

I've used this for over a decade. We have horses on our farm and it's a combo manure/shavings mix. I do let it compost first. As mentioned that act of composting takes up nitrogen from the soil. But once composted the reverse happens and nitrogen is released.

I agree with Christopher (Aquaeyes) and pfzimmerman that composted horse manure is best. One time I got fresh horse manure on woodchips bedding, and oats sprouted all over. Once composted, the seeds are killed - I got the composted stuff many times, and zero weeds. The stable here in zone 5a put lime to deodorize their stalls, lime is a natural fungicide, thus zero blackspots on my roses when mulched with horse manure. Lime also kills weeds. My neighbor's professional lawn company put lime on her yard to kill her weeds.

Some stables don't put lime to deodorize, you'll get a neutral pH in your composted horse manure. The stable here is indoor in cold zone 5a, so they put lots of lime to deodorize, which raised the pH to 7.5 when I got it in spring, and up to pH of 8 when I got it in late fall with accumulated lime. We get 40" of rain per year with rain water acidic around 5.6, so that balances out.

One University Extension recommended stables to put nitrogen fertilizer in their horse manure to get rid of it easier ... the woodchips or sawdust bedding once break down, depletes the soil of nitrogen. However, I saw tons of earthworms when I scraped off the horse manure, so soil organisms put back the nutrients via their waste.

Strawberry, I always was taught the opposite, that lime lowers acidity.

Strawberryhill did state it correctly "lime to deodorize, which raised the pH to 7.5" as did floridarosez9 "that lime lowers acidity".

Acid pH is a number below 7. Basic is a pH above 7.

Thanks folks, thank you for all the feedback, it has been a good learning experience...my stash of shavings w/poo is all in large tubs and cans and it looks like they'll stay there awhile..... I would have preferred an older more composted haul of manure,but this is what they had.... I've got several more stables lined up to visit so hopefully the next batch will be better, for quicker usage... interesting info. abt. the effect on PH, my PH is 6.5 w/kelway meter, but it sounds like it changes w/application of manure and also rain.... I've been getting bags of Black Hen but it's so pricey I thought switching to horse manure would be cheaper, getting the right batch-load is the trick....I appreciate all the help on this, you folks are the greatest! sally

That acidity question is interesting. Out here in my area, we are highly alkaline -- but a friend years ago, in Ojai, was in more acidic conditions, surrounded by old oak trees.

She used fresh horse from local stables -- believe me, fresh. And we learned from her to trust it.

Jeri

RE: Lime. It is my understanding that lime can significantly effect the pH of the resulting compost. Depending on your situation this can be a problem or not. From my decades of experience in the horse industry I would guess more stables do NOT use lime than do. (In my own opinion using lime to reduce the ammonia odor is a stop gap measure that reflects less than optimal stable management practices.) Unlike the question I recommended earlier concerning the type of herbicides used this one is a great question to ask your source--they will most likely know what management techniques they use!

If anyone is interested in more detailed info about compost from horse manure I wrote a long post a few months ago in the compost forum about stable management practices that might affect the resulting compost. You should be able to find it with a quick search...

There's a PDF file called "The long term effect of a single horse manure" which will show up when you google. Here's a clipping: "The composted horse manure,
including barn sweepings, was highly
alkaline (pH 8.4) because hydrated
lime, sprinkled on the floor of the
stables to control odor, was mixed into
the material (table 1). The application
of lime to horse stalls is common
practice.... The concentration of
exchangeable calcium increased from
450 ppm to 2,950 ppm as a result of
applying the manure and the
concentration of exchangeable
magnesium increased from 50 ppm to
750 ppm (table 2)."

If you click on the link below, and SCROLL DOWN to page 6, there's a tabulated data that lists pH of horse manure at 8.21, versus 4.00 of cow manure, and pH of 6.82 for composted worm casting. When you scroll down to page 6, you'll see the table. There's another document by Cornell University that tabulated pH data of nearby stables and found it to be highly alkaline due to the practice deodorizing with lime in cold-zones, with indoor stables.

I didn't apply horse manure to my roses in spring, was too busy potting 25+ new roses. In my zone 5a we have frost until late May, and the roses' color in cool spring were blah without horse manure.

I applied horse manure this fall, check out the deep colors of this bouquet picked today, Halloween Oct. 31. Top left big pink is Evelyn, top right yellow is Arthur Bell, middle orange-pink is Francis Blaise. Bottom row, from left to right: Mary Magdalene, dark pink Sonia Rykiel, red William Shakespeare 2000, and white Bolero.

Here is a link that might be useful: Organic Fertilizers and Composts

That is a gorgeous bouquet Strawberry, and interesting article, and it sounds like the water-soluble Peters does the best...I have used Miracle-Gro for roses, maybe that's the way to go.... I guess a lot of growers do just that, and it's quick and clean and easy... no smelly manure to hassle with....thanx, sally

OK, maybe here's my chance to get smart. I only use organic feeding since I am basically paranoid about harming the organisms and soil structure (what there is in my sand). So let me ask point blank, will Miracle Gro or Peter's soluables do anything to hurt my soil? Most of my roses look under nourished, not fully leafed. Rosarians in my local rose society use 20-20-20. Am I missing out? Is my paranoia ruining my roses?

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Are you all using horse manure, fresh or composted, in the fall?

Being in SoCal, wouldn't it push the plants to put on more growth this time of year?

Sherry, I use 20-20-20 along with organics. I can't see that it's harmed my earthworm population. With my sandy soil, when we get a lot of rain, everything washes through in a very short period of time. It's really hard to keep enough good stuff in the "soil".

Thanks, Floridarose, for an excellent answer with sandy soil. Since I have sticky heavy clay, I would recommend what I know is sticky good for sandy soil: alfalfa meal is like glue, wet leaves work better than peat moss, grass clippings is gluey, COMPOSTED horse manure is moist (looks like chocolate cake) and holds moisture well ....

All the above are great for sandy soil, but NOT GOOD when mixed with heavy clay, it's like making pottery here ... they all glue up within a few months. I learned my lesson NEVER MIX horse manure with sticky clay here. The first time I did that, roses got brown salt-burn. Heavy clay glues up to horse manure, and the salt doesn't get washed out like sandy soil. The second time we rototilled horse manure with clay until it's fluffy and loose. One year later I came back to find big chunks of concrete in that spot. There's a discussion about lasagna method versus rototilling method to fix heavy clay in the Soil Forum. All the experienced farmers, chemist, soil scientists voted for lasagna method. I chipped in my mistakes as proof that lasagna method is best to fix heavy clay. Kim Rupert also said the lasagna method is best, his motto is "never bury garbage", which means never mix organics into clay soil ...it becomes fermented, then glue up like pottery.

Per Kippy's question of whether using horse manure in the fall would push for growth? No, horse manure is high in potassium, but poor in nitrogen, so it won't push growth. Potassium is needed for winterization, that's why the bag of lawn-fertilizer for fall is higher in potassium.

Pickering nursery said NOT TO WINTERIZE roses with horse manure since their roses are grafted on multiflora rootstocks, and the alkalinity in horse manure isn't best for multiflora. Soil holds moisture better than horse manure, and has less salt than horse manure, thus it's better to mound soil on top for winterization.

Horse manure is high in iron, potassium, and magnesium ... and deepens the colors of bloom. My neighbor stripped off his old sod, then top-dressed his lawn with mushroom compost (aka horse manure) mixed with clay. He has the deepest green lawn in the entire neighborhood, beats all the professional lawn-care companies. He doesn't have dandelions nor weeds problem either.

I regret NOT getting dirt mixed with mushroom compost since I was concerned about the alkalinity (it only costs $6 more). Then I tested my load of dirt ordered, and found its pH of 8, even higher than my neighbor's mushroom compost mixed with dirt. They put lime in the dirt to suppress weeds.

Not sure about the horse manure you got Strawberry, but we grew some BIG winter squash in ours.

The horses we pick it up from eat alfalfa. Not pasture grass or hay.

Good point, Kippy. The horse manure I get is from a big pile, tall as one-story house, with chunks on poop in a bedding of straw, wood chips, and saw dust ... it's the bedding that robs the soil of nitrogen as it break down.

Kippy, do you get the pure manure WITHOUT the bedding? Then it would have a higher nitrogen content with alfalfa. Only a certain chemical form of nitrogen can be utilized in cold weather, the organics don't break down during cold weather. I tested that Canadian paper on early fall fertilization by mounding soil mixed with alfalfa meal last fall, and got a great spring flush.

My soil is heavy clay, very alkaline, thus the effect of salt and alkalinity of horse manure is more stressful here. In addition, there's the practice of liming the stable in cold zone. Someone else with a loamy soil, less alkaline would have a better result with NON-LIMED pure horse manure without the brown bedding. The stable here informed me that they feed their horses with oats and alfalfa.

Strawberry, I think what you might want to look for is summer time manure not stall cleanings. We get straight manure, it might have a bit of sand or dust depending on the source. I have not heard of any one using lime here. I do know a few people use DE or similar products. With our hard clay and horses compacting it, in the winter when it rains they can have a mud issue. But, both places I pick up from, are not covered long rows of stalls. My bosses place, I drag a trash can around the half acre they have to the horses favorite spots (if done when it has been dry the piles are light so not so hard to drag a trash can)

The other place, the stall part is covered, but open sides, corral and is full of sand.

I think it is likely the wood shavings that is making yours more similar to a mulch than a compost. A good compost should be a rich dark color that looks more like fluffy soil. Using the stuff we have has converted our hard clay (I could only get a shovel in it in the winter after rains and mom would break up the clods with a hammer) to soft easy to dig in soil that the veggies thrive in.

I am guessing the cold winters in Canada can change the way the compost cooks. I know I have chicken keeper gardening friends up north that can get their piles to stay warm enough to melt the snow off the top and steam. But it is something they work on. Here we do not have that issue so summer collections can sit in our bins with added leaves and chicken coop cleanings (we do use wood chips in there) and cook all fall and winter before it goes in the veggie garden. That is our "premium" compost and it mostly goes to the veggies.

I'd be surprised if there were any actual data to support the idea that manure (or any other soil-applied substance) has any effect at all on black spot up on the leaves. Use it as a soil improver and minor source of nutrients, but not as a fungicide.

Sherry- I have been using strictly organic for 2 years now since I stopped spraying, and wondered why the roses didn't do as well as I would have liked... several weeks ago I found an old box of MG Rose food and sprayed it on and the roses are 'bursting out all over'..... I don't know if it is due to the MG or the weather or the fact that the Chili-Thrips are declining or what, also it could be due to my putting my kitty litter-box offerings on the roses, pre viously I scooped and put the stuff in the garbage, but decided to put it in a pail and take it out to the garden... with 4 kitties it amounts to a fair amount daily.... anyway, my point is that something has caused the roses to burst forth w/new growth, green up, and lots of buds, a difference I can notice.... it might be worthwhile to occasionally spray some Peters or MG rose food, I intend to do so, also it is relatively easy and quick, no hauling heavy bags of whatever...I don't intend to quit using organics, but just supplement w/MG or Peters, also they would supply nutrients maybe lacking in the organics..... maybe someone can comment on your question abt. affecting the health of the soil, etc., it's a good point....sally

Sherry yes, unless you grossly overdo it, it's just paranoia. We use a mix of "chemical" and organic materials under our roses, and our soil is crawling with big healthy earthworms and lots of other creepy-crawlies. And the roses love it.

I was thinking about this all day. Ha horse manure on the brain...lol

I wanted to suggest to Strawberry, that it might be interesting to see if she gets better results from separating the horse manure from the wood chips. Not sure if the oats would sprout, but using it "fresh" we do get a few alfalfa plants, but they are easy to spot and easy to pull while small. I think we got maybe a dozen or two in several loads we used fresh.

On the other hand, I would only use the wood shavings like a bark mulch, but even then if they have been used to soak up the horse urine, not sure I would want to use unless it had sat and broken down.

Saldut, I think the bigger part of being organic is the spraying. We are pretty organic here too, but I use regular citrus feed and don't worry about it a minute.

I just picked up a truckload of "composted horse manure" from a new source. Got it home and it looks to me like stall sweepings (though I've never seen them before). Wood shavings, some darker fine stuff and lots of horse apples rolling around, hard and dry that burst when i squeeze them in my hand. I emailed the guy just now to see how long it's been sitting. We've been rainless for months, so I can see why it wouldn't have broken down much. I can smell the urine. If I lay it down 3-4 inches deep will it compost in place? I have lots of Organic Nitrogen fert (12-6-8, I think) that I've had in the back of my shed for a few years (ripped bag special) that I was going to put down just as the roses were ready to flower. Would that be good to broadcast over the so-called CHM after I put it down to add nitrogen to the process?

I keep getting screwed on the CHM I've been getting. Last year it was all hay. Now this stuff. I'm just looking for a way to make CHM quickly out of this truckload of unrotted stuff.

Thanks, guys.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Well, I just want to report, my kitty-litter rose-food is doing it's work!! My roses have never looked better, blooming and healthy.. that horse manure I brought home is still sitting there in the tubs while it rots down, most of it...also it was mostly shavings and needs to compost more... my 4 kitties are now sustaining and feeding my roses, wish I had more of the stuff...fantastic to think of it, isn't it? and here I was throwing it out in the garbage...my Calvin is coming tomorrow and I'll see if he can take some pics and post them...however, I will be getting more horse manure hopefully, have to nag him to take me! sally

Pooey, Sally! I don't have even one cat!!
:))

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Nice to think all the "free-lance fertilizing", as I call it, might actually be doing enough to matter, Sally. Now that the feral colony is down to 2 (Trap-Neuter-Return does work), I may have to actually go adopt some!

Of course, this is all nitrogen one has already purchased...

Debbie

Sherry, if you have shavings with misc. balls of manure, it's pretty darned fresh out of the stalls. And they must be on pure hay diets - I give extra high-fiber supplementation and have big blobs of mush!

You can still put down what you have as a mulch and it will compost in place, but from the minimal balls, you probably won't be getting much extra nitrogen. It should break down fine though ahd help the texture of whatever soil type you have.

I put it down straight from the stalls 3-4 inches thick with no composting. It's about 50/50 shavings/manure. I try to do it twice a year, but when I had my knee surgery, I couldn't, and my roses looked terrible. I use a high nitrogen time release fertilizer right after I put it down. I water the manure well right after I put it down. I also mix it with clay for my rose holes. I'm going Monday to get another trailer load. I figure the wood shavings save me from having to buy wood chips. The other interesting thing I've noticed is when I do my scatter garden, seeds that I used to have to start in flats pop right up and I have a much higher sprout rate. Even poppies, which I always thought liked drier sandy soil sprouted like crazy in it. One caveat, if you don't put it down thick enough, you fertilize your weed seeds. I do get a few from the manure, but nothing like my home grown weeds. For the first time, I have a lot of alfalfa seedlings coming up, but I believe they're nitrogen fixers and good for the soil, so I'm leaving them. They're kind of pretty.

I have a problem with armadillos tearing up the mulch, and everywhere they do that, weeds instantly pop up. It's enough of a problem, I'm considering loading a gun and sitting out all night waiting for them. I never thought I could kill a living thing, but I'm rapidly changing my mind. They used to only root up annuals and perennials, but recently they halfway uprooted two three-foot tall roses. The only thing that's stopping me is I'm afraid I might get carried away and accidentally shoot holes in my porch or something.

Wow Sherry, think what you are missing ! no cats! life is not the same without them, I have to have my kitties come h... or high-water, and now I have actually found a good purpose, besides that warm soft body purring on my lap....LOL..catspa, in order to have that 'free-lance fertilizer', such a cute moniker, one also has to have those litter-boxes, stationed around the house, hopefully where company won't spot them, at least until one of the fur-babies decides to take a dump...but that is the purpose of this whole thing, isn't it?.....Thank heavens I don't have the armadillo problem, floridarosez, just 'possums, they like to dig...and come to think of it, years ago I put some fish-meal in the garden and some under some new roses I planted, and the 'possums dug the whole place up and up-rooted the roses trying to get at that fish....never got that stuff again, and boy it stunk! Cal came this morning and took loads of pics, now I'm waiting for them to load on this thingy, and if I can figure it out I'll try and send some to GW, it's now or never because pruning time is upon us, also the heat is coming, and don't forget the CHILI-THRIPS.... our old friends will not forget us, will they? Cheers, sally

Can't wait to see pictures, Sally. I still haven't replaced my camera. I tried to take some with my ipad, but the blooms just came out blobs of color.

"If I lay it down 3-4 inches deep will it compost in place?"

Yes. This is what I spread on my gardens as mulch 2-3 times a year. I generally use stuff that's 6 months to a year old, but hasn't completely composted. And yes, there are still identifiable "horse apples" in it, but they don't smell and crumble into dark rich looking stuff if I break them open.

"Stall leavings"--which probably means there is a wood product bedding material mixed in--that are not composted are probably best not turned into the soil as the wood may temporally "tie up" your nitrogen. The nitrogen tie up tends not to be a major factor when the wood is left on top of the soil. That said, when I make a new bed I turn very generous amounts of the stuff in with my clay soil. If I plan well I can let it sit for a few months (over winter) but I'm usually not that well organized and I haven't had any problems planting directly into the mix. I also have had zero issues with the combination of clay soil and horse manure compost.

The lack of rain you've had might mean that your manure is higher in salt, but I would think on sandy soil that isn't hard to remedy with some watering. I would also suspect that the lack of rain (and that you are smelling urine) means that there hasn't been much nitrogen loss either.

If you don't like the look of your compost as mulch a very thin layer of purchased mulch will neaten things up. I use some "fine bark fines" on top of the areas around my front door that I think looks very nice. In the back it's all compost. ;-)

One more thought: The green/brown ratio with horse manure and wood bedding products can lean to the brown side of things. Even the saw dust/manure mixtures that I have left over in my composting area that is 2 to 3 years old with no "apples" left in it does NOT have that dark brown, black, crumbly, loamy look to it. But even when I use the young 6 month old stuff as mulch it pretty much disappears into my garden soil after a few months. (Note that I have 50 inches a rain a year and hot humid summers!)

Thank you, Harmonyp, Floridarosez, Sally and Subk3. You have eased my mind about this compost. The other compost I've gotten didn't having shavings in it. She used hay, I guess, and when it was well done, it was very dark and dirt-like. I can't say loamy because it was always fairly wet when I got it, but it probably was. That lady piled it up, and it aged forever. I don't think she had many takers for the compost.

This new source is apparently renting RV and stable space to horse people who are in town for HITS, Ocala's winter horse shows. So maybe that's why it's so fresh. I got my second load this evening and will probably need 3 more since I'm being generous. It's very light and easier to put out than the other stuff which had sand in it. I didn't like that stuff - way too heavy. I emptied the truck today in a few hours.

I sprinkled the old organic fert (12-2-4 from turkey litter and feathermeal in torn bags for $2 each) on top and wet it down. I'm glad to hear that smelling urine/ammonia means there's still nitrogen in it. Once it was down the look of the compost was a little weird but not offensive, but I thought the "apples" might rot better if they were covered, so I put down a thin layer of the free wood chips I got from the tree trimmers.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Hi Sherry,

For what it's worth...the composted horse manure I've gotten has been very light. The business states on their website how long it is composted for, how high the heat it gets up to, etc. They say that it is made up off horse bedding. I could see the wood shavings and some smallish soft "apples." It has no smell. I don't have enough gardening experience, though, to know what effect it has. But, your picture looks very close to what the stuff I bought looks like.

Good luck with it, Anne

Something to consider, if you are hauling the manure in the truck, it might be best to put the stuff in pots and garbage-cans, etc. so you can get it all out of there...otherwise that smell will linger, and linger, and linger....I used a bunch of old trash cans and big pots and totes, they are easier to fill and easier to get out of the truck, and set off to the side of the garden to compost...no heavy-handling for this ole' gal...I shoveled stuff into smaller totes and then dumped them into the big totes in the truck, and when I got home the totes are shoved off the truck into the wagon to haul wherever....a lot less lifting....sally

I am raising Chickens and Rabbits but my question is regarding the horse manure my quarter horse leaves about the yard. I load it into a wheel barrel weekly and put it in a pile with hay and shavings from the chicken coop and the rabbit cages. I don't have a vegetable garden yet but will be tilling soon for spring planting. Can I use this manure in that soil and till it into the earth. Our soil is VERY SANDY!

Second, I'm new to composting and I don't have grass clippings or weeds or pulled plants to put on the compost pile. I DO have 5 acres of standing pine next to my property so there are a ton of pine needles and leaves from the water oaks mixed in...should I put that with the manure on the pile?

Third, I turned the pile today with a pitch fork and the manure in the pile was very moldy...what should I do.

Last, I would like to get some perinneals in the ground and start some seeds for Shasta Daisy and Hollyhocks, also have a few new citrus trees. How soon can I use this manure for planting flowers/seeds and am I correct that I should keep it away from the citrus trees.

Thanks.

I use my horse manure straight in my beds and water in well. Chicken manure is very hot, so you have to be more careful with it. You have to have a certain percentage green to brown to make it cook, and I don't remember what that percentage is. I think there is a composting forum here, and if not, perhaps the soil forum cold help?

I apply a barnyard mix of manures straight onto the roses. It is probably about 40% horse manure, 10% chicken, 30% pig, and the rest wood shavings. It acts as mulch, composts in place and feeds the plants. It is the only fertilizer use; the roses seem pleased.

I want to address a comment made earlier, about wood products tying up the nitrogen in the soil until the wood breaks down.

This is true if you mix the wood products into the soil. It is not true if you use it as a mulch sitting on top of the soil. Used this way it only ties up the nitrogen on the very surface of the soil where the soil and the wood shavings, chips, etc., touch each other.

Just don't dig it in unless it is fully composted and no longer looks like a wood product at all.

Rosefolly

If it helps, since end of July, we have moved what seems like tons of horse manure from my bosses pasture to moms house and the roses and rest of the garden.

I used it more as a mulch laying it in a thick 3-4" layer to help hold the moisture from the drip system from evaporating. We did water a bit hoping to get any weed seeds to sprout so they can dry out and die off (one can hope right)

We have had 10-14 days of hot weather and so far my roses look happy. If you take a look at my little winter band of Reve d'Or, who has been planted in the ground for a few months now, you should see all the happy wine colored new growth.

Mine is pretty much nothing but apples, some was older, some newer, and a few oak leaves.

I am going to be covering the top with a thin layer of tree guy wood chips just because you can tell what my mulch is made of :D and we are going to have a garden party soon.

This post was edited by Kippy-the-Hippy on Fri, Sep 6, 13 at 12:34

sigh - I hope you can feel the waves of envy emanating from across the Atlantic. Tons! 3-4 inches! Barnyard mix! aaaargh , I am not normally so viciously jealous but now...........

The irony is: the farmer on the other side of the track from my woods, has heaps of the stuff (he keeps rare breed cattle) but I know for sure that he uses an amypyrolid weedkiller in the paddocks (cos he gave me some) so that's a fail for growing veggies. Does anyone have any idea how perennials are affected (or not - not all veggies are) by the newer types of herbicides (not 2.4D, but chlopyralids, amypyrolids or triclopyre)?
I have not dared risk getting manure for over 3 years now and the veggie garden (sandy) is beginning to show nutrient depletion and structure breakdown).

I believe that Triclopyr breaks down in the soil in a matter of months, but aminopyrolid in manure can cause residual damage to broadleaf plants.

Here is some info from North Carolina State University on the subject that I think is particularly good. (Link below for full article.)

"Aminopyralid, clopyralid, fluroxypry, picloram, and triclopyr are in a class of herbicides known as pyridine carboxylic acids. They are registered for application to pasture, grain crops, lawns, certain vegetables and fruits, and roadsides. They are used to control a wide variety of broadleaf weeds. If these herbicides are used on a pasture or hayfield, they apparently donâÂÂt harm the animals grazing on the pasture or eating the hay. But some of these herbicides can be persistent and may remain active in the hay, straw, grass clippings, and manure, even after they are composted. Some of these herbicides have a half life of 300 days or more and aminopyralid has been reported to remain active in compost for several years. A problem sometimes arises when these materials, particularly manure and compost, are applied to fields and gardens to raise certain vegetables and flowers. The herbicides of greatest concern are picloram, clopyralid, and aminopyralid. The garden plants that are most sensitive to this class of herbicides are tomatoes, potatoes, lettuce, spinach, carrots, peas, beans, dahlias, and some roses."

"Some roses." Not sure what that means, it certainly would be good to know.

Most of the product labeling for these types of herbicides says to wait 18 month before you plant sensitive crops where it has been used. I think porkpal is right that aminopyrolid is the longer acting one. For the others 18 months is not a long time for manure waste to sit around composting--and waiting for the chemical to go inactive.

If I had access to lots of high quality compost that I though might be tainted I would seriously consider a small test garden with sensitive plants to experiment with the compost in. I think it could be well worth the effort.

For those of us in the U.S. 2-4,D is still the predominate herbicide used for livestock hay production and it doesn't pose this problem. There are issues with this though and there is a small risk when using manures you don't know the background on. Fortunatly more people--farmers, livestock operators etc. are becoming aware of the issue.

Here is a link that might be useful: Manure/herbicide Info

Newbies should heed the renowned Dr. Malcolm Manners on two points of controversy in this thread:

1. There is no reason to think that a mulch of horse manure with lime will control blackspot disease.

2. Manufactured fertilizers generally do not harm soil organisms.

However, excessive use of any fertilizer can harm the soil and plants. Excessive use of manufactured phosphate can cause the rose to stop employing the symbiotic mycorrhizal fungi to scrounge phosphorus. If you want to preserve these fungi, avoid high-P fertilizers and fertilize in an NPK ratio of 3-1-2, 2-1-2, or 2-1-1. Actually, if the soil contains some clay, a soil test will often show that little or no P and K are needed, so only N need be supplied.

Salt buildup is often a problem in areas with heavy soil and low rainfall. In such areas, choose fertilizers that are low in sodium and chloride (read the label). Stable manure that has not been leached by rain may contribute to salt buildup.

About "nitrogen robbing." Chips, bark, and leaves mixed into the soil can cause a shortage of nitrogen during the decay process. (This is easily remedied by supplying "fast" nitrogen). The same materials applied as a mulch do not cause that problem. Decay is much slower, and bacteria pull nitrogen only from the very surface of the soil. A shortage of N there is not harmful and can help to discourage weeds. Depending on the ratio, shavings mixed with stable manure may not rob nitrogen because the stable manure is rich in nitrogen.

Stable manure contains soluble N and K that will leach out if it is composted out in the open where there is rainfall. If the manure is applied as a mulch, the N and K (along with less desirable salts) will leach into the garden soil. So there are tradeoffs. But you can tell by the anecdotes here that there are many ways to use manure in the garden successfully.

Cheers for the info, PorkP and subk3. This has been a huge issue in the UK yet these herbicides have now been licensed for home use and are in popular lawn weedkillers (originally, it was generally available through Doff agrochem, for farmers).....so now, a popular (and free) soil amendment, composted council green waste, is also off the menu since even heat does not break down amypyrolids sufficiently. Numerous allotmenteers were caught out when using manure from local liveries - unlike the US, lush grazing paddocks are not here, there and everywhere so many horse-owners have to buy in hay....without having any idea of the provenance of the hay (or herbicides used in it's production) - a nightmare for organic growers....because absolutely, Michael, there is little doubt that excessive synthetic compound chemical fertilisers do impede microbial function. Many of us have been relying on green manures - we got chickens just for the poo( a short-lived experiment since dawn bike rides to a winter allotment to let the chooks out soon wore off).
I never thought I would have such dung envy (although I have located a shetland pony rescue service which sells ridiculously (but non-toxic) expensive bags of manure....but ya know, it hurts, paying cash for sh*t.

Camp I don't mean to laugh but, yes paying cash for sh*t is painful!! Around here we have a "boutique composter" who goes to great lengths to compost horse manure and stall leavings in a labor intensive process that saves more of the nutrients in the finished compost. You can buy a 40 pound bag of his "organic agriculture waste" for $16! :-o

When I told this to some friends who I give my compost to for free they suggested I start my own business and call it "Susan's Compost: She knows jack!" No thanks, I'm not sure that even at 16 bucks a bag this guy has a viable product...

But the good news is when I've had to buy extra hay this summer from commercial sources I don't usually use (one a farmers co-op and the other a local farm store) both outlets knew exactly what herbicides had been used on the hay I wanted to buy. That means more and more people are getting the word that you need to be informed.

Our local Pony Club had a successful fund-raiser selling bags of their mounts' output. (I hope we didn't sell any herbicides with it.)

You could run a quick test, Porkpal. We were all told to grow beans (quick to germinate and grow...and also badly affected by herbicides) The effect of amypyrolid is seen in a young seedling, so a test took about 4-6 weeks.

What happens to the beans? do they die, or deform, or some other odd thing? also, if they do bear, is the 'poison' still in the beans to be eaten by the unsuspecting? this is scarey stuff! sally

Yep, Sally - the beans show deformed growth - pretty much as soon as the first true leaves develop. It is alarming because these are systemic effects which cannot be rinsed off under a tap. On the other hand, the current pesticides are generally supposed to be safer and less toxic, to humans at least, than some of the unbelievable dodgy products beloved by our forebears (arsenic, strychnine, nicotine).
I am conflicted by chemical use because I certainly use fungicides (or I would have no gooseberries, raspberries, peaches, almonds, strawbs, tomatoes or potatoes (to mention a few I have to protect from various fungal attacks) - I do, however, wish to be informed about what pesticides are in use and potential effects throughout the food cycle.....so I can hopefully make an informed choice and not be left in the dark.

You raise a very important subject, we sure need to know what we are eating inadvertently, the mfgs. are not very forthcoming abt. what they are feeding us... everything we eat and use has a secret and it needs to be revealed, and we sure cannot expect or even hope our Legislators will pass laws protecting us, after all, they are bought and paid for by those very mfgs....sally