I think I would rather not grow roses if it meant damaging bumblebees. Especially in the face of the loss of so many honey bees. We will not wipe out the JB's, and the collateral damage from an all-out assault is too high a price to pay, in my opinion. Fortunately it has not come to that sort of choice for me. After visiting a friend with devastating beetle damage I often think about what I would do if it were suddenly my problem. That is an imminent possibility.

I share my garden space with the bumbles, and they do not get offended at all with my sharing even the same rose with them. I hear them buzzing in my ears when I am fertilizing. No biggy. The only time I saw bumbles get aggressive is when I inadvertenly disturbed a nest last year. Then they didn't offer to sting, just divebombed me for a half-hour or so. :o)

I've never been bothered by the bumblebees. They're all over my garden, and that's fine with me. As for the beetles, I hate them. Luckily this year was the best I've seen in terms of a low number of beetles (something to do with all the rain we got). Treat your yard in the spring to destroy the grubs (beetle larvae); it really helps reduce the number of adults in your yard come July. Spraying will only kill adult beetles on sight and will not prevent other beetles from coming. So spraying will only work if you are out there 24/7. And anyway, you will decimate all the good bugs. Not an option for me.

Ummm, try milky spore in the spring and also in the fall? I tried spying on other threads, trying to figure out how to get rid of JBs in case I ever get JBs. In one thread, they talked about Milky Spore. The only other thing I could find online, besides Milky Spore, was nematodes. Both Milky Spore and nematodes are supposed to zap the larvae before they hatch into adults. Several sites say that both are harmless to bees.

I think the key is to zap the larvae, so that way you don't have to risk accidentally getting pyrethrins or other stronger insecticides on the bees. Whatever you do, so long as you stay away from Sevin, you should be o.k. It's a bummer if you accidentally spray a bee or two with insecticidal soap or neem oil, but it's better than wiping out a hive with Sevin. But from all the additional research I did on the milky spore/nematodes that a particular thread led me to, I think that these 2 options are supposed to be very! effective against the JBs.

If I ever have to use insecticidal soap or neem oil, I'd only spray when the sun goes down. Bees are very early risers (as early as crack of dawn)and I've read that neem oil takes as long as 4 hours to dry and by then the bees are very, very active. And I'd rather do the bucket of soapy water dunking and spraying Pam or canola oils on the culprits than resort to neem or insecticidal soaps. But that! is only because I have so few roses, not like 100 roses or more to worry about! I think insecticidal soap also just kills on immediate contact and won't contaminate a hive, unlike Sevin. Neem oil can kill bees if it hasn't dried and it may makes them very sluggish and in a stupor if they eat too much of the contaminated pollen. I'd choose insecticidal soap over neem if I was forced to make a choice. But I think as long as there's Milky Spore, I should be safe.

You are so lucky to have bees in your garden. It is sad when the only insects visiting one's flowers are the filthy flies and cucumber beetles. It's so frustrating!

In my experience foraging bees never bother with the humans in the garden unless the humans make a point of trying to swat them away (and I say this as someone who regularly shampoos with strawberry scented shampoo). Once in a while a bee will hang around my hair, but only long enough to realize no flower is present. Once they realize that they lose interest and leave.

Yellow jackets are another matter entirely, but yellow jackets don't look like bumble bees! You also won't see yellow jackets hanging around flowers. They are far more interested in fruits, and that only in later summer!

A few days ago we had 25+ honey bees on our Marigolds, as I was dead-heading the spent flowers. I went along doing my business and they went along doing theres, they never bothered me. I even took pics of them. I swear some of them posed for the camera...LOL

{{gwi:321511}}

yankeesrule
What a terrible solution, surrendering to the enemy.
I just put on blinders and don't let the JB damage bother me. They'll be there no matter what I do so why fight it.
But, I'm not giving up my roses and create a sterile environment. You'll never escape nature. How do you fight mosquitoes? Aren't they just as bad in their own way?
I was stung five times this year when I unknownly tore open a bunblebee nest buried in my compost pile. They dive bombed me unmercifully but I finally escaped. That was a skirmish I lost.
The nest was removed on a cool night when they were not active. It was placed in the woods and I know not what ended up happening to them. I won the battle, and I'm doing what I like while enjoying the flowers, birds, butterflies, and yes, the bees.
I got wounded but am still not surrendering.

A few of us have had them pretty bad this year. See the post linked below.

I was spraying the beetles, not the plants. If a plant didn't have beetles, it didn't get sprayed.

I haven't been outside much for a few weeks. The worst of them is over from what I see; now I really do not want to spray because the birds have finally come.

I don't know what I'm going to do next year.

Here is a link that might be useful: *Whispering* How's your JB season this year?

I think you are better off as roselvr says, spray the beetles. Do it in when the bees aren't active. Sometimes early in the AM. Also the JBs are sleepy then and don't fly away.

War is not an appropriate metaphor for gardening.

Insecticidal soap will not control beetles. It will not affect bees unless you soak them directly.

Re "i cant even get near the roses, there are that many"-- Bumblebees are not aggressive or dangerous in any way. I have worked around them for 40 years without being stung.

For me there is a hierarchy in the garden and as much as I love roses, bees inhabit a higher level - including the bumbles. I would never kill a bee deliberately. My beetle problem so far is fairly mild.

My daughter's was not - they were in her yard by the hundreds. She tried the traps and that only seemed to make it worse so she used milky spore - it took about two years to really work but it did work and she did see some improvement the first year. If my problem grows worse that is the route I am going to try.

For a long time I had a little red hen who helped with bug control - I had no beetles while she shared my garden. If you live in a place where you can keep a chicken or two or three, they are one of nature's best antidotes to pesky bugs.

I beg you to see the bumblebees as a positive. Please let them be a part of your natural garden. They add joy and life to the gardening experience. I would hope you don't attack them in any way. Please!!!!

michaelg
"War is not an appropriate metaphor for gardening"
I agree but it is against some insects such as Japanese beetles.
How often do we hear someone state they were invaded by JBs, aphids, saw fly larva, etc? I've heard some say they'll have to break out the big guns and nuke them.
If this is not war against the bugs, what is?
The statement by la jardin, "I would hope you don't attack them in any way. Please!!!!" further makes my point.
Besides, those who know me also know I often exaggerate and use stupid examples to make a point.
Lighten up! Life's too short.

I have never once been stung by a bumblebee. They just, well, bumble along. They are not an agressive bee by nature. However, disturb ANY living thing's nest, and it is their duty for survival to defnd it.

I have used milky spore, and IT WORKS. Once you innoculate the ground with it, it will last for about 10 years. I have not had a grub problem in my lawn oir garden beds since using it. Now, after 12 years, I will find a rare grub when I am digging in the soil. The rest of my neighbors, particularly the ones who laughed at me about using milky spore, have had terrible grub problems (and damage from grub foraging moles). These are the same people who have a service do "blanket" insecticide coverage.

If you don't have a balance of natural controls, you will never win the battle.

Sandy

Dont get me wrong, i dont dislike the bees enough to want to hurt them, i just wish there were less of them. The last from 2004- 2008 not 1 single beetle, not 1 ! 2009 not using the insecticidal soap, hundreds of beetles and 10 times as many bees, seems like too much coincidence to me, but i could be wrong.

bumblebees are useful insects that should not be killed intentionally. I'd prefer to keep the bad parasites AND the good bumblebees rather than getting rid of both. Especially if proportions are like you say 1 bad guy to 10 good guys.

From what you say about their behaviour, however, I am not sure your "bumblebees" are really bumblebees. They are not aggressive insects. Wasps are. You sure yours are not wasps?

AAAArgggh! I love the bees and bumblebees. I believe York rose? or someone with a similar name even gets to pet his bumblebees-he talked about the multitude that keep visiting his butterfly bush. Bumblebees are sooooo gentle. I too would rather have 10 good guys to one bad guy!!!! I figure that bad guy is easily controlled by milky spore. To want to lessen the amount of bees, now that alarms me. Again, when you've got only flies being able to visit one's garden (as in my situation) then that! is a hideous sight! I am so sick of those flies and wish the bees will someday make a comeback in my neighborhood. Yankeesrule, please send those bumblebees to my garden! or at least the well-wishes!

My parents and I got to visit Powell Gardens to see the live butterfly exhibit. They are a completely no-spray garden which is very rare in gardens! you wouldn't believe the variety of bees and even bumblebees there were (there were like 4 kinds!!! of bumblebees) it was so amazing! I even saw bumblebees go alllll the way over the water to visit the water lilies. It was such a memorable time for me.

We have plenty of bees in our yard--they pollinate our strawberry jar so we have been having fresh strawberries every few days this summer! Since we also grow dozens of hybrid teas we do need to spray to get the flowers we want--but do our best to minimize the impact on the bees--primarily by avoiding stuff that is toxic to bees on the flowering plants.

Have you tried Sevin?

sevin is soo environmentally friendly that it is outlawed here...

Oh that's odd... I buy it at the drugstore here (well, in California, where we live part-time.) I use it for all kinds of stuff. Works great.

ETA: I see you are in Europe. They must have different issues than we do.

>They must have different issues than we do.

Yes, they are smart enough not to poison themselves, their family, their pets, their neighbors, and their environment.

It's not an issue it's common sense.

Thanks for the troll spawish. I see you registered the same day you posted this. Did you re-register just to post that message without using your regular username?

Spawish, please don't use Sevin. It will destroy bee hives and for this reason it's been outlawed in Europe. It also wiped out the honeybees in his garden when he used it on the foundations of his home. We live in Kansas. EPA will be banning it for 2010 in garden applications. Please see this Wikipedia link.

dangers of Sevin

My concern is that stores will be allowed to continue selling this product until it runs out. I hope the link will help convince you not to buy any more of this product. There are other alternate insecticides you should use instead. What happens is that Sevin functions like arsenic to a bee. At a higher dosage it kills immediately; at a lower dosage the poison is carried into the hive where it quickly builds up as the bee carries the poison whenever the bee's body touches the poison as it lands or actually is brought back into the hive as contaminated pollen. Sevin is used to kill insects with nests such as ants and wasps because it can be a slower acting poison that destroys the hive. One of its functions is to have just enough dosage that several workers (insect workers) will survive long enough to carry this poison to the nest where it will then shut down/destroy the nest.

That is the reason why Sevin is so devastating to the bees.

Palustris:

Huh? I'm assuming that most people read the messages here, and when they decide they have something to say they register and post (shrug.) I hardly think suggesting an insecticide warrants the label of "troll," but whatever.

I honestly had no idea Sevin was controversial. I only know it as an extremely effective insecticide that is sold in every drugstore, garden store and home improvement store in town. I have even seen it at the supermarket. It has worked great for me in dealing with several pest problems - yes - including bees (my daughter is allergic.)

Serenasyah:
Thanks for the link. I will look into it.

Palustris, I was beginning to freak again. Hmmmm, a troll? I would never have thought this. I was thinking oh, no, not again, poor bees. Well, hopefully it's just a prank instead of something more sinister like some company trying to promote Sevin.

sorry Spawish, but when we saw your post, I am thinking Palustris thought this is a similar problem we had with the Humanure troll; thank goodness Admin finally did something about this. But the thing is when a new person pops up without any previous talk about roses it's really alarms us.

Hope you will read the link and its toxicity report. The use of Sevin unfortunately affects your neighborhood, not just your home. The range of bees is 5 miles, and once a hive is gone, it is permanently gone. You basically have to wait until a new queen from elsewhere finds your neighborhood. As Dr. Amrine warns there have been areas in West Virginia which have not seen bees for over a decade.

I am very sorry to hear about your daughter's allergy to bees and it's can seem a bit "scary" to allow bees to exist in your garden. But basically you have to whack a honeybee hive and stomp on a bumblebee nest to get them to sting. Honeybees and bumblebees are normally very gentle unless threatened by aggressive movement aimed at them.

Well, hopefully this will be the end of the Sevin issue, and we can again resume back to the talk of roses. Hurray!

Serenasyh,

Yes, I will definitely look into the information you provided. I've always viewed bees as stinging pests that pose a threat to my daughter. The way we actually found out that she was allergic was that she was stung while playing on a playground when she was 2.5. What a nightmare!

Hugs to your poor daughter! yes, what happens is that young baby toddlers are very uncoordinated and will fall very easily. I am thinking she must have somehow fallen unto that bee when she was very young. Normally bees never ever sting unless they are in danger or their hive are being invaded; they are normally very gentle especially! the bumblebees. They themselves are very clumsy and will often tumble around on their flower.

I too, if I were a Mom would hate or be afraid of a bee if that had happened to my daughter, but am hoping you will eventually understand that bees aren't pests but are essential to farmers; they have to bring beekeepers in to pollinate their fruits and vegetables. That is why so many people are concerned about their disappearance. Without bees we won't have fruits to eat and seeds to plant. That is how critical bees are.

At Powell Gardens where I visit, they purposefully keep their gardens pesticide free and have butterfly and bee exhibits for the children to enjoy. There are bees everywhere! All kinds of varieties. My mom too is allergic to stings and has to be hospitalized if she were to get stung. She was stung by a yellow jacket about twenty years ago. But she loves watching the bees up close. She doesn't like yellow jackets and will avoid or walk away from them. Interestingly, I didn't see any yellowjackets at Powell Gardens. Maybe because the multitude of bees kept them away because of the food competition? sort of interesting. If this were the case than having lots of bees to keep those nasty yellowjackets away would be terrific. Some yellow jackets can have a nasty foul temper unlike the gentle bumblebee.

Another wonderful thing about Powell Gardens is that they have a vegetable garden for families to eat and take free goodies with them, all thanks to the bees pollinating all the stuff (smiley face).

serenasyh
I went to that link and read the information. Unless the 2010 ban is in one of the many other sites linked to this one, I saw nothing stating that Seven will be banned in the U.S. as of that date or any other for that matter. Perhaps it's wishful thinking on your part or you gave the wrong link but if it's not true, this is not the place to start the rumor and begin the rush to buy it before production is stopped.

Karl, Henry Kuska was the one who sent me the link on the EPA's decision way back when I wrote about my Dad's bee wipeout with Sevin.

Here is the link:

EPA on Sevin

Karl I am worried sick that Bayer and the stores will run all these discounts and promotions to sell off the remaining supplies. But all we can do is try our best, right? and to be sure to let our friends, neighbors and local nurseries know why Sevin is so bad for the bees.