I treated all of my lawn and garden beds about 8 years ago with Milky Spore and I feel it works. I haven't had any grubs at all until this past spring, when I found a couple of them when digging holes in an area that had never been planted with anything before. It bordered my next door neighbor. I'll probably treat everything again with it next spring. I'm about the only one in my neighborhood that hasn't had gophers or moles digging tunnels in my lawn looking for grubs. Everyone else has. I keep telling them to put Milky Spore down, but they would rather have some lawn service dump poison on their lawns all the time. Well, the poisons haven't been working. I'm sure glad we put a reverse osmosis system on our drinking water.

Now if they could just come up with something similar to Milky Spore that would kill off all the thrips!

I'm very reluctant to join this discussion because I don't wish to offend anyone and also live in an area where there is very little disease on my roses. I can only say that I worry very much about present poisoning of the environment and the future impact of toxins on all of us. I work in a large hospital and have noticed that over the last 28 years since I began there the incidence of cancer in younger people has risen dramatically. I have no proof of any direct connection but only offer this as my observation. Mother's milk now has toxins in it. We're all interconnected on this planet and I don't want to do anything that could have an effect now or in the future on any living thing. (OK, I'll make an exception for black widows and cockroaches.) I realize I'm the only one on this thread voicing a direct opinion about this but I feel compelled to voice these considerations. I try to live my life in a way that I can justify to myself and in the final analysis that is all that any of us can do.

Warm regards,

Ingrid

Ingrid, I know how you feel. I don't want to offend anyone either, and would be the last person to try and tell someone else how to handle their garden. Now if someone asks for advice...well, that's a different story, but I do try to be educational and diplomatic. I certainly hold no malice towards anyone who sprays their roses in a responsible manner.

It is interesting that you mentioned that you have noticed increased cancer rates. I've also worked in a couple of large hospitals in the past, and agree with you, although I certainly don't have any so-called scientific "proof".

I'm going to give a couple of examples of why I don't spray anymore.

I sprayed some roses once near my screenhouse, and was being careful not to get overspray into the screenhouse itself. Still, I waited 3 days before letting my cats out there. By that evening, they were all vomiting (I have 5 cats). I went out the next morning and scrubbed like you wouldn't believe. No more sick kitties. The spray mix had Banner Max, Manzate, and Conserve in it, all mixed as directed. It was not windy out. I never sprayed those roses again, and in fact seldom sprayed at all after that.

I broke down and sprayed some hybrid teas I had in the back, not near my screenhouse, 3 or 4 weeks ago, can't quite remember. I waited until almost dark because of the heat. It made me sick when I noticed all the neat, non harmful creatures that were in and around my roses that ended up with spray chemical on them. Toads, lizards,etc. The stuff I was spraying didn't kill them outright, but any toxin is still harmful, it's just a slower death. Some people might say it was only a toad or a lizard. Our Native Americans had a great respect for all life, so it has made me do a great deal of thinking lately.

I went inside, showered, and vowed I would never spray that stuff again, and I haven't. I was angry with myself for giving in and spraying when I had already decided to quit doing so. I yanked out all but my one favorite hybrid tea, and it will have to live with organic measures, like it or lump it.

The cancer issue you mentioned is interesting. I was recently at a neighborhood pot luck and one of my neighbors commented that she thought something must be wrong with the water, as many many of our neighbors have gotten cancer and died over the past 5 years. There are only about 150 houses in our development, so the percentage seems high. Some of the cancers were unusual blood cancers, so rare that doctors were puzzled them. We are all on wells, the landfill is a few miles away, and lots of people have lawn services dumping chemicals on their lawns every 5 or 6 weeks, whether it needs it or not. Someone made a comment that they've had their well tested and it is fine. Hmmm.....government water testing when the landfill has had some controversy around it. I told them to get a reverse osmosis system.

I eliminated almost every weed in my lawn by balancing the Ph to where it is supposed to be for St. Augustine grass. 30 bags of lime later, I was weed free. Many weeds love soil that is highly acidic. My next door neighbor wanted to know what chemical I bought to kill the weeds. I told her to get a soil test and what my results were. All I got was "Oh". (If my lawn was too acid, I'm sure hers is too). Her lawn guy has been dumping tons of stuff on her lawn since then, and she still has weeds. Frustrating. I make sure I don't walk on her lawn.

I must sound like I'm lecturing everyone. Sorry about that. I'm just so happy that I can grow many beautiful roses in Florida without spraying! They aren't perfect all the time, but they still look darn good!

Sandy

An unsprayed garden means different consequences in different places. I don't spray, and my roses get mildew, rust never and blackspot rarely, but they don't defoliate and they don't die. So the situation is different than for those rose gardeners who live in blackspot H---. If I lived in a different place and found that I could only have roses by spraying (whether spraying is an absolute necessity anywhere is an open question in my mind), I can't say for sure what I'd do. I believe that I still wouldn't spray. I might stop growing roses, I might even move, but I wouldn't spray.

In the past year or two I've noticed a disquieting problem developing in my roses. I've lost two or three plants that just withered and died, abruptly: an autopsy showed that they had their roots, and they didn't blacken and die like roses do that are done in by cold or drought. I don't know what it is. Now I'm seeing roses here and there that are losing a cane in the same way. I prune off the canes and sterilize the pruner afterward over a gas flame. This has been a hard summer for the roses. We've had about three inches of rain since the end of June, with no rain in sight either, and we don't water unless it's an emergency. This is the kind of summer that shows you what your roses are made of. Nothing is blooming. The only roses that show signs of real suffering are those planted in very stony shallow soil; everything else dug well in and settled down to wait for rain. In the area of, let's say, intermediate stony poor soil, the Teas and once-bloomers look healthy and the English roses are miserable. Mr. Lincoln, one of the two or three Hybrid Teas in the garden, is also holding up well. English roses don't necessarily require pampering, but they need clay to get their roots into. Same is true for the Hybrid Musks. We do have three mature roses under the terrace, and three climbing up to the balcony. The latter are in a bed with plants that do get watered a bit, and the former catch some runoff from the potted geraniums above, and an occasional extra squirt from the hose. Five have new growth and are blooming. The roses are Mme. Antoine Mari, Mrs. B. R. Cant, Duchesse d'Auerstaedt, Jaune Desprez, and Maréchal Niel. I mention these few growing and flowering roses because they really have gotten very little extra water, and they are very beautiful now. Yet another testimony to the suitability of Teas for dry mild climates.

Everyone has their personal threshold for risk. But you should know that all Environmental Chemicals and Food additives as well as drugs given to people and food animals have safety evaluation studies that lead to risk assessments that include exposure assessments. Many have rodent lifetime and carcinogenicity studies as well as mutagenicity studies to see whether there is any potential for carcinogenicity. You can be assured that exposures that you get from approved chemicals if administered correctly lead to risks 1/1000 below a no observed effect level in long term animal studies and much lower in many cases. That is not to say you should not treat chemicals with respect and specifically avoid significant direct contact with the concentrated material -but we all know this. All chemicals are toxic at some level - the critical issue is the dose. And doses thousands of times below a no observed effect level are considered virtually safe. Chemicals used in the environment are also evaluated for binding to soil particles, degredation, effects on aquatic life and many other tests. The evaluations and decisions are made by trained professionals working for the US and State Governments. After approval, if toxicity is observed or other adverse reaction, it should be evaluated to find the cause. This sometimes leads to additional studies and further evaluation. I would be as concerned as anyone else if something adverse happened and would want to know why and would report it to authorities. Not a sermon, but a reality check.

Ogroser, I read your comments with a great deal of respect. I'm sure that in many instances you are correct. Bald eagles and ospreys have made a comeback because the use of DDT is prohibited in this country, although unfortunately the government does not prohibit massive amounts being sold to third-world countries. As an aside, there was a group of companies in a large business park in my county that kept complaining to the water company about the smell and taste of the water, and the water company kept insisting that nothing was wrong. The CEO of one of the companies finally had private testing done and it was found the water contained sewage. After the publicity the water company finally investigated and found a faulty connection which fed the sewage into the drinking water. We all know of government coverups such as Love Canal and that undermines one's belief in the veracity of studies done by the government. I don't want in any way to be contentious and will now drop my involvement in this discussion. There is no black and white on this subject and one can debate endlessly. As I said before, we must each live our lives as we see fit and, like Sandy and Melissa, I don't judge anyone who thinks differently from me. One thing we know, we are all united in our love of old roses and that is the important bond we share on this forum.

Sincerely,

Ingrid

Ingrid, I respect your opinion.

However, without spraying 90% of my roses would be defoliated by mid July, and others would look terrible. Black spot is relentless in the Mid-Atlantic. The worst in the nation in fact. Roses that are clean no-spray elsewhere loose their leaves in Maryland. There are only two - count them TWO - repeat blooming cultivars that can be grown no spray in my area. Those lucky two roses are KNOCKOUT and DARLOW'S ENIGMA. Even then, a few spotted leaves aren't unheard of, but generally don't detract from the beauty of the plant.

Speaking of beauty, that is why I grow roses. I prefer the lush and full flower forms found with the English Roses and certain Old Garden Roses. Fragrance and reliable repeat bloom are also important. If I was forced to limit myself to a few single or semi-double, disease free, cultivars then I would not have a rose garden.

My biggest beef with the more radical "no sprayers" is their insistence on forcing their views and opinions (by making horticultural chemicals illegal) on those of us who spray. Cygon 2E, for example, is the only chemical proven to kill the mite that spreads the dreaded Rose Rosette Disease (RRD), which let me restate is 100% fatale to ANY rose. Researchers have been looking for resistant species or hybrids but to date have not found one. RRD is the epola of the rose world. Once I run out, my ability to control the spread of RRD when it appears in the garden will be compromised. This may not be a concern for California rosarians but it is devastating for us in the East where the disease is common. The same can be said for Japanese Beetles. Rosarians on the west coast don't have them. We do, and let me tell you that a cluster of JBs are capable of devouring a rose blossom in a matter of seconds.

For the record, I am trying to go no spray in my mother's USDA Zone 7b rose garden. Mom is getting too old for the routine upkeep that most moderns require. Thusly, I'm replacing all her roses with China, Tea, Noisette, Hybrid Musk and Shrub roses. These winter-tender roses are better suited to her mild Virginia coastal climate and many, although not all, can be grown organically in her area.

My personal view is to try to keep the spraying to a minimum, practice all the safety precautions, use organic controls whenever possible, and choose cultivars that give me a balance of beauty and performance.

Best regards,

Patrick

Image of JB "blooms" by Harryshoe previously posted at the Rose Gallery.
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I am trying to move toward no spray garden. I am in MD and Patrick is right, that this is VERY challenging here, Between RRD, BS and JBs, midge and other things. In addition I can't tolerate roses suffer and go bald from BS. If the rose is loosing it's leaves or get crud, I better will not gorw it (now) or spray (in the past).
I still spray with fungicide some of my Divas, because I can't bring myself to part with them, but all new roses that come into my garden are no spray and I gradually give away more and more of my spray roses every year.
What does it mean to me is that unfortunately I have to almost comletely forget about repeat bloom. Knock Out, Darlow's Enigma and few others that get BS but still keep some leaves are my repeat no spray roses now. I can count them using my fingers and still have some fingers left. I have more then 130 different varieties altogether.
I grow many gallicas, albas, once blooming climbers and ramblers, some damasks, centifolia, mosses, etc, but they don't repeat. I made this choice, but I really think it is very personal. Everybody should make their own choice based on their climate, rose preferences, health, time, etc.
We are all adults and should be able to decide what is best for us in our gardens in our current period of life.
Olga

Oh Patrick, those Japanese Beetles are gross!!!! I'm sure they injure many crops, not just roses. Same thing goes with thrips, particularly the chili thrips. They damage many different plants. I'm hoping researchers are trying to find natural means to control these pests, such as a non harmful (to anyone else) bacteria that makes them all blow up!

It's a tough call when it comes to spraying. I really don't have a problem with anyone using approved sprays for roses as long as they follow directions and are thoughtful of their (and their neighbors) health in the process. I just don't want to do it anymore. That said, I don't mind using some of the soap sprays on a few plants when needed, and I'm going to try Neem Oil (when cooler out)on some. Today I tried some premixed Safer brand spray on Ballerina because she had a little grunge. It wasn't blackspot though, just some crud. We'll see how well it works. I hope it does because this plant is new for me and she is very, very pretty in partial shade. I'd like to feel I can keep her.

I have a few friends who have a mixture of roses that need spray and those that can get by without spray. The ones they spray are their very favorites and are worth the chore, to them. This minimizes their exposure, and is a nice balance for them.

One time (before I knew better) I sprayed a bunch of bushes with no protection. This was before my rose growing days. I thought I was being careful, but afterwards I felt ill and had a strange metalic taste in my mouth for several hours. It taught me a good lesson.

Keep in mind that just because a product is natural doesn't mean it is not toxic to you. Copper sprays are "natural", but are extremely toxic to humans. Copper spray can do all kinds of internal damage. Cover up and wear a respirator.

Melissa, you must be so frustrated about your roses that died. I hope you can figure out the cause.

Sandy

I had seen that picture with the Japanese beetles before on the forum and thought it was truly horrible. I'm assuming this is an imported pest but am just curious whether the birds in your gardens eat any of these gross things at all. As I've mentioned before, I'm very fortunate to have very few diseases and pests in my garden but, believe me, I feel really badly for all of you who have to do battle with so many different malign elements. It seems so unfair.

Ingrid

I didn't have many JBs this year. It made a tremendous difference. I finally saw my Teasing Georgia bloom after June and before September. That never happened before.

They are imports from Japan (surprise!) and have no natural predators here. Some are eaten by birds, but not enough.

Some sparrows eat them but they have to learn how to do it. Besides, they reproduce so rapidly and in such great numbers that the birds don't even make a dent. The Great American LAWN (grrrrrrr...) provides the perfect habitat for the happily growing grubs. Eco-safe controls are useless. The only known eco-control is milky spore disease. The rub is that to be effective it would have to be applied to every lawn in the neighborhood to be effective. JBs can fly to a nearby "clean" lawn should the need arise. Besides, mass applying a fungus could be more harmful in the long run. We learned that lesson from Rose Rosette Disease (RRD). In the beginning it was thought to be the perfect control for the rampent Rosa multiflora (an invasive foreign species rose) growing wild all over the United States. So county extension agents starting applying it to the wild roses, only to find - to our horror - that the disease doesn't just kill multiflora. Oh no, it also kills other roses too. In fact it kills modern hybrids much faster than the wild multiflora. So now rosarians on this coast have yet another problem to deal with.

All because well meaning people were looking for an easy way out.

BTW, the reason Rosa multiflora is a problem is because "well meaning" boy scouts and other groups planted it across the country during the 50s to provide shelter and places to nest for wild birds. Our own native wild roses weren't considered good enough because they grow much slower and can't quickly fill razed areas. Unfortunately, the multiflora got out of control and has been a problem for farmers ever since. Now that it is the "host" plant for RRD the multiflora rose is also a problem for rural and urban rose gardeners.

Well meaning conservation minded groups may have planted multiflora, but the story I heard was that the practice was again well meaning, but ADVOCATED by the USDA. Not certain of all of the stories, but I would not hang it all on the Boy Scouts.

Old Garden Roser,

If you reread the last paragraph you'll see that I wrote "well meaning Boy Scouts AND OTHER GROUPS". I don't think that statement hangs the sole responsibility on the named organization.

We have, however, gotten off topic. I apologize since I'm partially responsible.

Lets stick to the queston of "To spray or not to spray". Many of the posts on this thread are very helpful. One of the trends intriguing me is that some of the participating rosarians seem to be going primarily organic, but keeping a few select favorites which require spraying and a little more care. Or is that just my imagination?

Patrick

Not here.

Any rose that comes here is on sufference, until we know how disease-resistant it is.
My ideal is to retain no rose that requires more than a garden hose, but in practice, we spot-spray with diluted hort oils here and there in the spring.
Any rose that needs more than that will have to bloom in other gardens.

Jeri

I have stopped spraying because, no matter how much I sprayed, the roses would somehow manage to attract a disease. When I see powdery mildew, I "wash" my roses with a watering wand (I love my Dramm), and I get the problem under control. We get our water from wells here, and we already have enough problems with the water having too much mineral and some negligible traces of uranium (?!), that adding more pollutants into the groundwater seems foolish.

Is there any organic, non harmful (to me and pets) way to get rid of ants? For some reason, maybe because it has been humid, but very little actual rain, I have an ant infestation in a couple areas, with much damage being done to my potted roses.

They do not appear to be fire ants. They are red ants, and black ants, and they don't try to bite if I provoke them. They are decimating my potted plants though, and destroyed 4 potted grafted plants by tunneling holes in the bud union. I'm trying to get the roses in the ground, but it's too hot for me to do much yet, and some aren't ready to be planted yet.

I'm sure they are farming some aphids in my planted roses, but haven't seen aphids - only the honeydew and some sooty mold from them.

You should see them march by thousands along the blue line tubing and into the pots when the irrigation goes on!

I've also noticed a couple of areas on the edge of the lawn that have been killed. It seems to be along their "path" near the concrete.

Someone told me to sprinkle Tide detergent out there, but haven't done so.

Sandy

Hi, Cupshaped Roses,
Unfortunately, blackspot resistance in Europe does not necessarily translate to blackspot resistance in the mid-Atlantic states because fungal strains are local. I suspect the converse is also true: our resistant roses may not be disease-resistant in Europe.

Like Luanne, I've composted more roses than are in most gardens. When I spray, it's with a respirator, regardless of the labeled PPE requirement. That'll cool your spray jets big time. Add to that a location within a few hundred yards of the bay. I'm better off spending my time watering and fertilizing (which I don't do much of either).

I don't spray because I'm more fond of my small children and dog than I am of my roses.
There is a choice between the two that has to be made: cancerous or not, most pesticides and fungicides are poison--it says so right on the bottle!

"Hot and humid"--I live outside of Houston--enough said!

Any plant that can't survive outside gets shovel-pruned. I consider it euthanasia.

I have just moved into a home with a formal HT rose garden. The home was empty for one year, and 4 out of ten were outright dead. The remaining 6 will be moved next to the veggie garden for use as cut flowers only.

Before I was even half unpacked, I planted a Mutabilis.
There are healthy roses for every climate, and those who waste time and risk their own health pampering roses that aren't suited to their area are missing out on some really fabulous roses that deserve appreciation.

Cass: You may be right about that? If we do a google search for BS resistant roses. I see various list ... Frankly I Often laugh when I see those lists, since I have seen many of these roses get BS really bad. This is why we need to test roses in many different areas of the world. And some roses really are much more resistant than other roses. We do however have to try to grow these highly resistant roses our self to see how they do in OUR area.

I do however think one of the problems about spraying is that some strains of fungi, develop fungicide resistance.
In America you are allowed to use fungicides we can not use over here. And I see you use many different fungicides. That may be the cause of more aggressive fungi strains, that have
become fungicide resistance. This is why spraying may actually cause more problems.....

Growing roses with better resistance and keep spraying to a minimum (and vary between different fungicides) on the roses that needs spraying is probably the best advice to gardeners.

I don't understand the 'poison' aspect. I use bleach and ammonia and other poisonous agents INSIDE my home and manage not to poison anyone. I think I can manage that outside as well.

I was under the impression that most of the above postings are about how little they use fungicides, how they limit their use carefully to specific plants, how they try to minimize the need to spray fungicides (by planting disease-resistant roses, etc.), how they are cutting back on spraying fungicides, etc.

I don't think this is the group that needs to be told over and over that they are over-using and mis-using fungicides. They sound quite responsible to me.

Kate

Cass' and cupshaped's comments bring up a point, I think:

Fungi can probably develop two different forms of resistance: They can become more resistant to our fungicides and they can become more resistant to the natural defenses of our roses.

Our use of fungicides clearly encourages development of the first type of resistance. I have never come across any evidence that this has ever happened with any of our rose blackspot fungicides.

What encourages development of the second type of resistance? Wouldn't a lack of control, meaning not spraying fungicides, lead to a higher population of the blackspot fungus in our gardens and wouldn't a higher population of fungi increase the probability that a strain with greater resistance to our roses' natural defenses would arise?

Which of the two types of resistance would be more devastating to the gardener?

Cupshaped, it is speculation to suggest that more virulent blackspot results from our different fungicides. Different strains of pathogens exist on different continents. I think our understanding is still developing. The conditions in the part of the country under discussion are not like those in Europe. We are much further south, very humid, very hot, no cooling in the evenings. The area around our nation's capital was a malarial swamp into the late 1800's. It's best to reserve judgment about others' need to use fungicides in those conditions. The best defense against disease in those conditions is roses bred by hybridizers who test them there. And roses that are successful there may not be successful in other climates.

I agree with buford...it's easy to "choke on a gnat and swallow a camel". Presription and OTC drugs being flushed away from millions of households, unnatural products thrown out from beauty salons, household products that cause skin irritation on contact, individually wrapped foods creating millions of pounds of refuse, bottled water bottles, shoes and purses and clothing made from synthetics that must be discarded somehow, plastic bags to carry our groceries in, etc., etc., etc. THOSE things really worry me. Conscientous gardeners using modest amounts of products don't cause me one bit of concern in comparison to those things. I believe people who garden instinctively have a love of nature and are the least likely to harm it in any way.
Molly

Ron, I would be very interested in your AACT program. Where would I find good, reliable information on this?

Sandy

Cass. I did not pass any judgement on those spraying at all I advised finding the cultivars that do well for gardeners in the area they live in and I brought up the problem of fungicide resistance to attention. Ok you are right and I am wrong ...Seems to be the only answer that will please you. You just seem to want argue!
Your conclusions contradict all horticultural and agricultural scientific research in this area ..even research done in the areas of US you mention. Maybe if you took the time to read up instead of just attacking other on this forum? Here you state one thing ... and 2 month ago you wrote this:

* Posted by berndoodle (My Page) on
Mon, Jul 16, 07 at 22:58

You need to rotate fungicides using different modes of action. PM spores are clones, and they can number in the millions in a bad outbreak. Those conditions are perfect for the development of fungicide resistance, one mutation out of a million being decent odds. The recommended rotation in a recent source I read was strobilurans, on one hand, and older, broad mode of action fungicides like bicarbonate salts, copper compounds, sulfur or horticultural oils. The Compass label specifically recommended every other spray rotation for PM. Unfortunately, most of those older, broad mode of action fungicides can be a problem in high summer heat.

Here is a link that might be useful: Good notes about broad action PM fungicides:

It seems to be a waste of time to discuss the matter further with you. Find someone else to pick on. Thanks.

I do not spray and have decided to live with whatever happens. Here in Spokane we have lots of blackspot, mildew, but thankfully no Japanese beetles. If we had those creepy bugs maybe I would feel differently. It really doesn't bother me if my roses don't look perfect every month.

I grow lots of shrubs, clematis and flowers along with my roses. I also have lots of bird feeders, bird houses, bird baths, and enjoy sitting back and watching them. And each year the weather here is different. I am willing to try different things, but no chemicals. Overhead spray seems to encourage black spot so I hand water them. This is the first summer my two Ballerinas were without blackspot, and I was very careful to not spray the foliage when I watered.

I detest the smell when the lawn service comes around and sprays all my neighbors lawns and leaves those little white flags. It is a poisonous smell and closes up my throat. That can't be good for dogs, birds or people.

Cupshaped, I think you may be misinterpreting Cass's posts somehow. They are not attacks, but politely phrased and rationally grounded disagreements. So please let's not fight. I and others value the contributions of both of you to this forum very highly.

Oh, I don't use poisons in my home either. If I use typical bathroom cleaners, etc. I end up with a migraine even with ventilation. Shocked me to read the back of the bottles. They had "warning" and "danger" listings. I don't buy the stuff anymore as there are less toxic ways I can clean my home.

I don't let bug people treat inside my house either. Their so called stuff that won't hurt animals and people resulted in some very sick pets and a vet bill a few years ago. We have tubes in the wall and that is as far as anyone gets near my house to do any treating. No more sick animals, and I am assuming my husband and I aren't getting sick either.

You should have seen the look on the kids' face when he came to do the tubes in the wall and I told him NOT to kill the banana spiders that are camping out in my plants and in various areas outside the house. He said he knew they were a beneficial spider but usually everyone wants EVERYTHING dead. Not me. I don't have a bug problem in my home, and it's in part because of these beautiful spiders. They catch all kinds of stuff and eat them before they even think of coming inside. They sure have quite a network set up in the shrubs. They run and hide if one if the cats starts looking at them though.

Sandy

I have 5 banana spiders in my yard right now. They do manage to put their webs in some bad spots. I have to refrain from going out my basement door because of one. But they do eat a lot of bugs. I like watching them get bigger and bigger. I do get upset if I see that they've caught a butterfly or bee, but that is nature.

I must be immune from all fumes because I never have a problem. Except once I used very strong ammonia solution on my floor and almost passed out. I learned my lesson.

Ron, I would like to learn more about use of the AACT spray program.

Sandy, I'd love to see your banana spiders!

Jeri

Speaking as a Florida native, I think Sandy's on the right track. I've always suspected that Floridians without a few bugs in their houses are living with dangerous levels of pesticides. Better the occasional palmetto bug. And I think her rule of no poisons anywhere is an excellent one and doable--I don't use them either. By the way, years ago my sister was a student in Gainesville and lived in a house infested with cockroaches. Someone gave her a gecko: it ate all the cockroaches and entertained the residents as well. For my part I appreciate all the spiders, paper wasps, and lizards in my garden. Now, if we could only get some animals that eat beetles.

Melissa

I'll have to train my cats to eat JBs:) They also keep down the bug population in the house, but unfortunately they don't know the good ones from the bad ones. One of mine brought a preying mantis in the house. I brought it outside, but it was a goner. They also like little snakes and lizards.

I do have a nice froggy in my front yard, I guess he eats lots of insects. I have to be careful not to step on him, he blends in so well.

My cats are great about catching bugs too, so they help a lot. The other day one of my "boys" brought a baby frog in to play with though, so I had to take it away and put it back outside. The frog must have squeezed under the screen door. Ditto with little lizards. They make the cats throw up anyway.

Jeri, I'll try to get a picture sometime this weekend of the banana spider that is on my kitchen bay window screen. I know most people would probably have removed him (her?) from that spot, but I have been fascinated watching this thing. It was toddler size a few weeks ago and is now the most beautiful grown up creature. It has caught many types of bugs that I surely would not have wanted to get through the wall into my house!

I know these spiders don't bite because I accidentally walked through a web in my pot ghetto and ended up with one on me. Now THAT I didn't like, but it was more afraid of me than I of him, and couldn't get away fast enough.

This is great. I decided in mid-life to slow down some and take notice of the REAL world out there! I can't believe all the stuff I'd been missing.

Sandy

Is this what yours looks like? She lives in the spirea by my front porch. Part of my morning routine is to go to see what she's having for breakfast too.

The skink is also observing the spider. Maybe waiting to see what escapes the spider's web for an easy breakfast.

We're having beautiful weather this morning - I hope fall is coming to your part of the world too. Annie

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Oh! I LOVE the spider! And the ?skink? is terrific, as well.

I don't think we have skinks, but we have an increasing lizard population -- and somewhere down there, I think there is a garden snake. But only DH has seen him.

Jeri

I saw a spider filament this morning spanning about 20'. It was perfectly horizontal and I couldn't imagine how it could have done it, but guessed it must have ridden a gust of wind.

I'd like to know more about the aerated compost tea. How is it made and could you aerate it with something like fish tank bubblers? What is it about the aeration that is important?

I'd like to hear more about the toxicity of Banner Maxx and Manzate. I was thinking Banner Maxx is not considered toxic to bees. NOt sure about it, or Manzate. I've heard the news lately about the declining populations of honey bees. I have lots of bees in my yard though that doesn't mean bees aren't being harmed in my yard.
Linda

Annie, that looks like my spider(s)! I never thought I would ever think a spider was beautiful (I used to have spider nightmares as a child), but I really like these guys.

I keep hoping for a taste of fall weather, but it sure isn't here yet. Still very hot and humid. I want to take a short trip to upstate NY the end of the month, but we'll see. I love it up there in September.

Linda, I have the generic version of Banner Max. It is called Honor Guard and is supposed to be the exact same thing, but it was slightly less expensive. It has a II Warning label on it, which translates to moderately toxic. Manzate, also called Pentathlon, has a III Caution label, which translates to slightly toxic. Clearys 3336F, was the least toxic of the fungicides, but don't know anything about what it works on. Both Daconil and Funginex are on the Danger list, so stay completely away from those. Daconil tends to burn rose foliage anyway. Been there, done that. You have to decide if some government guideline is within your personal ideas of what is slightly toxic or not. I tend to not be overly trusting with these types of issues, myself. What blows me away is that Orthene is listed as a Caution, but it is a neurotoxin. No thanks! My nerves are already shot from raising teenagers! They don't need any more damage.

All I know is the ones that are supposed to be considered "slightly toxic" made my cats extremely ill 3 days after spraying in the vacinity they were in. The couple of times I was stupid in the past and didn't wear a respirator and long sleeves I also became quite ill. I figure if a pet gets ill from a substance that I believe they had minimal contact with, it is somewhat like the canary in the coal mine. Their small bodies are telling us what is really happening in ours, but we just don't know it yet.

So, if you spray chemicals, protect yourself. Totally. If someone is careful, I believe the risk is probably not extremely high while they are spraying, though it is impossible to cover ALL exposed areas (think ear lobes, etc). Working in the garden with the residue, well, I just don't know about that. We're usually out in shorts and a tank top and get stuff on our skin, sometimes for hours. We're sweating (at least I am), so our pores are wide open from the heat. If you have pets, and you love them, and they are around where you spray, I would think twice if you really want to use chemicals in the areas that they play. If you have children, that one is a no-brainer.

I haven't been using any of my chemicals. I should probably take them to the toxic waste section of our dump one of these days.

Sandy

For anyone interested in the AACT method of compost tea, I highly recommend the book "Teaming with Microbes" (I can't remember the author, I lent my copy to a friend who hasn't returned it yet). We got our compost tea maker from a place called KIS (for Keep it Simple, I guess they were diplomatic and left off the 2nd "S"!).

Cupshaped, I really don't think Cass was being critical or anything, I know her personally and she's never been anything but polite and studious. She is quite thorough in anything I've seen her take on, makes me feel like a slacker!

--Ron

Michael, Ron and Cass it is water under the bridge... I was just overworked and overly sensitive. I wish there was an edit function on this forum or a delete button for stupid posts, and that I had not hit that "Submit button" before the Xanax had worked and I were able to see things through rose coloured glasses.

Fungicides are the least toxic of the horticultural chemicals. Yes Daconil can burn foliage but only under certain conditions (when plants are dried out and temps outsides are hot). I've never had it burn any of my roses because I'm certain to water them beforehand, only apply it early in the season, and limit spraying to the early morning or evening hours. In fact, its a whole lot less harmful to the foliage than lime-sulfur, which is an "organic" fungicide. The only toxic side effect I've read in the literature about Mancozeb is that there is a slightly higher incidence of eye trouble in agricultural workers who routinely work around it. These people don't have the advantage of goggles, a respirator, and protective clothing. They are also exposed to much higher levels and much more often. I've never noticed a marked decrease in insects from the use of fungicides.

A bit of perspective. This weekend I visited my 70 year old mother. Before leaving for what is a three hour drive I picked a new blossom of PRETTY JESSICA, a gorgously fragrant new English Rose that I acquired last year. As I was driving I'd occasionally pick up and smell the rose. The powerful Damask fragrance kept me alert and happy during the drive. Such a treat! The flower was still fresh and beautiful when I arrived. My mother immediately wanted me to buy her the rose when I let her smell the flower. I had to gently let her down. "Pretty" as PRETTY JESSICA is, she needs spraying and mom's health won't allow her to put in the necessary work to keep the English Rose looking good in her Tidewater VA garden. My mother was profoundly disappointed. Her rose garden is organic, and lovely as the Chinas and Teas are, they just don't have that certainly "quality" that we've come to expect from the English Roses (and Bourbons, Hybrid Perpetuals, Portlands; all of which are disease mongers). I'm hoping mom will be more pleased as her new garden develops. Duchesse de Brabant and Belinda's Dream in particular should please her.

"It is beauty that nourishes the soul."

Image of PRETTY JESSICA by Celestial Rose.
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I guess I've been really lucky with my Pretty Jessica, and also The Prince. Granted, they have only been in the ground since last fall, but they don't have ANY cruddy leaves on them, and they haven't been sprayed.

Duchesse de Brabant and Belinda's Dream are gorgeous though. I certainly wouldn't consider them "second best".

Sandy

Patrick, if you do someday move out to Northern California (as I believe you've mentioned before), you might be surprised to find that the Portland roses are trouble-free here. I had a friend visiting from Southern California (where I did not find they were so disease resistant), and had her smell those flowers, she was blown away with the incredible scent. Anyway, I would have thought they'd be PM magnets, but they don't get that or Downey Mildew. I wish they grew cuttable stems suitable for shipping!

--Ron

California real estate isn't affordable. Of course, if the prices keep falling...

Rob and I have pretty much decided to stay put for at least another 5 years, or until our mothers pass away. After that we were thinking of the Massachusetts coast (I really don't want to go anywhere colder than zone 6).

BTW, most Portlands black spot fairly badly in the Mid-Atlantic. Marchesa Boccella is the exception, but it even gets some BS.

Again, different regions, different results. I have had Pretty Jessica only one season, have never sprayed it, and have no disease on it. One terrific plant so far.

Kate

Patrick, of course I have no idea what prices are like where you are. Parts of Mendocino county aren't so insanely priced as other counties, and it's one of the most beautiful counties in the state. And, as you say, if the prices keep..ahem...moderating...then who knows?

--Ron

I garden in the SE. I decided early on that air and circulation was the ticket with the roses. I always use different ways of pegging for the following reason. I save only the real big bottom trunks, and then I prune everything off of the bottoms (to about two feet up). When I need to help the babies out and they have not gone dormant, I remove all the leaves; the plant in surprised but not injured and it immediatly goes dormant. After a while the bottom parts of the roses are as pretty as the other, looking like origami; I use some sprays, prefer systemics. The whole rose bush becomes a work of art; the Austins and many climbers antique and new- have trunks that are awesom.

I'd love to see some pictures of that, rabid. It sounds very interesting.

I try to cut any very low branches and thin out the middle of most bushes to help with circulation.