old Cecile Brunner

9 years ago

We had an ancient huge self supporting Cecile Brunner bush in our garden, which finally succumbed to old age (90+ years) last year. I was able to root one cutting, and it had tip rooted a baby by itself, which is still in the garden. Below are two pictures of it, the second one where it is not blooming has my DH in the foreground for scale.

I have always wondered what kind it is. My Cl Cecile Brunner is MUCH bigger, but does not bloom nearly as much. My bush Cecile Brunners (including a very old one) are nowhere near this size. Folks have told me it does not look like Spray Cecile Brunner, but I have no idea what that really looks like.

Anyway, I have the small rooted cutting in a pot, and every time I go by it I look at it sideways to see if it is exploding yet. I think I will find out if the Sacramento Heritage Rose Garden or the SJHRG would like it, unless it is very common. Do those of you who grow the bush CB have ones that are this big?

Thanks -

Jackie

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Comments (7)

jacqueline9CA
Original Author
9 years ago
You can get a better idea of its size from this pic - that is all one bush.

Jackie
jerijen
9 years ago
I suspect it's a bush form 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' that has not been cut back, and is very old. I'm sorry you lost it, but at least you have its "children."
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I,m not sure why you care about the differences, but I grow both climbing Cecile Brunner and r banksia lutea (Yellow Lady Banks) right next to each other on the 3 story tall wall of my house. Since you are in zone 9, you should be able to grow both of them too. Your bush does not look like a banksia rose to me - it certainly could be an old climbing Cecile Brunner. Have you seen the blooms? Are the small and light pink and have the form of tiny hybrid tea blossoms? See the picture below - both of the roses on my house are climbers, and both can be trained (they don't have to get this big - I encourage the large size, because I love huge roses). In the picture most of what you see is Cl Cecile Brunner (pink blooms) - the yellow blooms on the left are from the edge of the huge yellow banksia rose. They both get the same height on our house (to the roof). They are both (only one plant) about 3 1/2 stories high and 15 or more feet wide. The main other differences I can think of are: 1) the banksia is definitely once blooming, and starts blooming earlier (ours is coming into bloom right now). The CB usually blooms after the banksia has finished, which makes them great companions (this pic was taken because for some weather reason one year they were both blooming at the same time). The CB has scattered repeat all year, and a flush of bloom (way less than Spring) in the Fall. 2) the banksia is COMPLETELY, truly, thornless. The CB has plenty of thorns. 3) The banksia canes are much more flexible and longer than the CB canes. Both can be pruned as much or little as you like. We only prune ours to keep the windows of the house clear, and to take off some weight in the Fall so they don't get torn off the house in Winter storms. If I had your old CB I would probably cut off the top mess, clean the base, weed all around it, feed it, mulch it, and wait for it to put out more new canes, which could then be trained horizontally along the fence. Jackie
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Jaxondel, I spoke with a rosarian, (E. W.) who grafted several hundred roses onto rootstock, for a large Californian public garden, he was also the President of a large local rose society. He said that on average a cultivar on rootstock will need to be replaced after 15 years. When I compare our 15 to 20 year old roses on rootstock to younger plants, the 20 year old Hybrid Tea roses on rootstock, produce far fewer roses per sqare foot of bush than younger H.T.s.because they stop producing new basal canes. It would appear that the budwood, which was grafted on the rootstock deteriorates, or dies, after 15 years. It is one of the reasons I usually purchase "own root" roses. Luxrosa P.S. My grandmothers own root, "Mme. Cecille Brunner" was planted in the 1940's and is still thriving at 57+ years of age .
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Genetic drift in roses is quite common, and CB is no exception, that's why we have upright shrub CB, Cl CB, Rita Sammons, various "Sweetheart" roses, etc. Sometimes later clone lines may be infected with RMV, which could account for the difference in vigor. There are other possibilities, too... had, say, someone noticed a seedling 100 years ago which was CB x self, which was true to type, would we be able to tell if it had found its way into commerce as CB, even if (stricty speaking) it wasn't? Whatever the explanation is, I'm sure that you know which one you'll want to take cuttings from.
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Thank you for your replies. The termite tent man came out and said the rose would have to go inside the tent. He said it would almost certainly kill it. I think both of your suggestions are good - it is a tough plant. When we get to that point I think I will cut it way way back and wrap it. I see that there are bags they give you to put your food in - if you leave your food inside the house (why?) that are supposed to be safe. In any event we are waiting til fall - we have to leave the house open for 3 days and saturate the ground with water for three days before tenting. Its over 100 degrees here now and we are in a drought - so I cant water that much. Thank you again - it was so nice of you to take the time to answer. You gave me some hope - which I really appreciate. Sue
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smithdale
9 years ago
I also have an old Cecile Brunner which I inherited with the house I purchased 10 years ago. It reached the 2nd story & beyond of my 100+ year old home before I gradually (over 4 years) reduced it to about 6 feet.It blooms from late June into Nov. It's a very rambunctious grower that would eat my small city lot if I allowed it, ergo I never feed or water it. After reading on this forum of the different forms of CB, I'm curious to know what mine is. Is the continuous blooming a defining trait? My neighbours say it has been in the garden at least 40 years & maybe a lot longer. No photos, I am technically inept. I live in coastal WA. Jane
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
9 years ago
I always thought the bush Cecile Brunner was a dainty polyantha. Could this not be the spray form instead? Of course Perle d'Or can also grow very large so who knows?

Ingrid
jerijen
9 years ago
The spray form is pretty distinct, lifting its inflorescences above the balance of the plant.

I have seen old plants of the bush form of 'Mlle. Cecile Brunner' that were easily 8 ft. tall -- and those had not had regular access to water. It is the FLOWERS that are "dainty." Not the plant.

Here is a 'Perle d'Or' that has only been watered when there was rain, but is huge.
roseseek
9 years ago
I discussed this issue in an article I wrote about Iceberg and its parallels to Mlle. Cecile Brunner. Much of what pertains to Iceberg, pertains to Cecile. It's linked below. Spray Cecile Brunner produces definite "sprays" which I've attempted to illustrate in the photographs on the Spray Cecile Brunner rose page on Help Me Find. Look at my photos of Spray Cecile Brunner taken in Sharon VanEnoo's garden in Torrance, CA. They will show you the sprays and should help make it much easier to figure out what you have. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Poor Old Iceberg
jacqueline9CA
Original Author
9 years ago
Thank you all so much! I guess the old bush was just very happy where it was. Its tip root baby is about 7 feet away, so hopefully it will be happy too.

Kim, I read your article on Iceberg - I have a climbing one going up an arch and then our house - it blooms constantly. I will look at it and appreciate it more now!

Jackie

old Cecile Brunner

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jacqueline9CA
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old Cecile Brunner

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jacqueline9CAOriginal Author

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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9

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