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karenforroses

Help! Can you I.D.this problem?

karenforroses
15 years ago

One of the members of our rose society brought in cuttings from some of her roses. Usually large and healthy, she had a rose last year whose new growth was deformed, with small curled leaves that stayed green but didn't get any larger and no flowers formed. She cut back the deformed foliage and new growth was O.K. But this year 11 of her roses are showing the same symptoms. She did a computer search and the only thing that sounded anything like it was Rose Spring Dwarf disease, a virus. But she can't find any good pictures to corroborate that possibility. I asked her if she had used Round-up this year near the roses, as it reminds me of Round-up damage. She said she had, but had been careful to avoid any drift. I'm hoping Round-up is the culprit, rather than a virus. What do you think? Here's some pictures:One is Jacques Cartier and the other is Eden Climber.

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Comments (17)

  • karl_bapst_rosenut
    15 years ago

    It could be an early stage of rose rosette disease(RRD) a virus spread by airborne mites, usually from infected wild multiflora roses in the area. Go to the website below to view the web book by Ann Peck, a Tennessee rose grower who has become the go to person on anything related to RRD. There are pictures and a list of symptoms to watch for.
    Unfortunately if the problem is RRD, there is no cure and the infected rose(s) must be destroyed.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Ann Peck's web book on RRD.

  • york_rose
    15 years ago

    I can't rule out herbicide altogether, but also fear RRD.

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  • scorpiohorizon
    15 years ago

    Ann will know, but I wondered about RRD when I saw the first pic.

  • Maryl (Okla. Zone 7a)
    15 years ago

    Not to give you too much hope, but it is possible that it is herbicide damage. The reason I say that are the thorns (particularly in the first picture). Every rose I've ever had with RRD always had one thing in common; a proliferation of thorns. The following is a pic of an infected cane of Our Lady of Guadalupe that I cut off about a month ago. Our Lady is not a particularly thorny rose, but note the thorns with RRD.
    {{gwi:313506}}

  • lionessrose
    15 years ago

    Karenforroses:
    I too have a few roses displaying the exact damage as shown in your photos.
    I was thinking RRD after researching what the damage might be.
    However it appears RRD/Rosa Multiflora is not in Idaho.
    It appears Rosa Multiflora has been found in Southern MI but not Northers MI to date.
    (Rosa Multiflora map link):

    http://www.invasive.org/eastern/images/768x512/0580052.jpg

    Looking at pics of RSD, none compared in similarity with the damage.
    However I did find several similar matches researching 2-4 D / herbicide leaf damage.
    Thus, based on photos and information I have decided herbicide damage is the best diagnosis for the damage my roses are displaying.
    Lioness

    Here is a link that might be useful: herbicide damage

  • len511
    15 years ago

    Karen I think you hit the nail on the head, but since she is not buying it I would just call it a new disease and name it after her, i'm sure she will be flattered.

  • petaloid
    15 years ago

    Round-Up damage. Been there, done that. Doesn't matter if she was "careful." Breeze or no breeze, if you spray the stuff, it drifts.

    A fellow showed our club that he pours the liquid into a container and uses a paint brush to put it on weeds. Your club member might try that next time, if she insists on using the evil stuff.

  • carla17
    15 years ago

    I've never seen herbicide damage in person. The growth in your pic is strange. Every time I see or hear RRD, I get paranoid. I've had RRD but not sure with your pictures.
    Maryl is right on about the hyper thorniness. Also rubbery pinkish canes are a sign of RRD.

    Carla

  • jont1
    15 years ago

    The pictures of the affected roses don't look like the RRD that i experienced on two of my roses either. The RRD I had does look exactly like the pictures that shows the proliferation of soft thorns like the ones that were submitted by MaryL. I don't think you had RRD Karrenforroses, I think it is something else. I have the same thing on one of my roses but it is just the top of one new cane on a well established and otherwise healthy rose otherwise. I didn't use any herbicides and don't know what caused mine, but it isn't spreading and it isn't getting worse on the affected plant and doesn't seem to be damaging anything else. I am going to leave it alone cautiously watching and waiting to see what it does and how the affected cane turns out as it matures. I think this is the only way I can learn more about it since I have never seen it anywhere else. I think it is the way to go with this one.
    John

  • anntn6b
    15 years ago

    I've had so much RRD that I try to stand back and look for multiple symptoms.
    What's healthy with the two pictures is that they aren't becoming rosettes- that is closely spaced leaves and she isn't getting hte excessive leaf axil breaks. Those ought to be showing up on the bushes that had the problem last year.
    (Before I forget, it's not Spring Dwarf. Wrong symptoms.)
    And the thorns aren't becoming denser.
    The green color can be RRD midsummer and some cultivars don't go red, even with RRD.

    Ask her about the distribution of sick roses in her garden. Are they all on the leeward side of a fence? Are they next to each other? (where the problem could have spread root to root)?
    Then it's time to look at herbicide going from roots of target plants into the roses. It happens. And it's documented in literature. In my garden, it's happened with Tordon; there are at least three published/jury reviewed papers about Round-ups ingredient doing the root-to-root spread and in one of the papers they couldn't get Round up to go volatile even in the heat of an inland California summer.

    Please come back and talk about the pattern of the problem within the garden.

    As to where RRD is: It's been in Canada to the north of the upper peninsula on at least five different occassions (not recently reported, however). The reservoir plants are thought to be roses. My deep down worry is that it has a second, as yet unrecognized reservoir plant on which it may not be as deforming. And I doubt that it will be found in my lifetime, unless by luck, someone says...this sick rose growns next to a kerfuffle tree that hasn't been as good as all the other kerfuffle trees I've seen. In China, there's a disease recognized in a rose garden that's a phytoplasma and it's been traced on the molecular level to a nearby pawlonia tree with witches' broom and the molecular patterns of the phytoplasmas of both the roses and the tree are a near match. But the symptoms of that problem include rose blooms that are totally green. Which so far aren't our problem although a lot of the other symptoms would be familiar to folks here who've had RRD in their roses.

    Could the disease be different in a colder climate? Also a possibility.

    One test she should do is get some iodine (the kind that sadistic parents used to put on kids' scratches) and cut a slice/thin section across a rose cane. RRD inhibits the formation of starch from sugar. There should be no blue-black color there. (A tooth pick will turn blueblack because of stored starch).

    You can tell this is a off-the-top-of-my-head answer.
    Come back with some more info and we'll work this one out.

    (Please don't post more pictures. My computer is excessively slow this summer ...danged land line.)

  • mark_roeder 4B NE Iowa
    15 years ago

    I did not spray Round-Up near my roses 2 years ago, and had about 16 of them that had growth similar to that. The consensus dx was RRD. I dug them up that fall. Some of my most vigorous growers were very sick.

    I cut off two branches, a month apart on one of my vigorous rose bushes this year (in a separate but nearby bed) that showed that type of growth. I have sprayed Round-Up this year but not since spring. I think this one rose bush might have RRD in it, possibly. I think there is some evidence that if one acts promptly to cut out the bad growth it may not spread. It seems to spread from the infected top of the bush down into the roots and then back up into the rest of the bush. Prompt pruning of new aberrant growth may help if it is RRD.

  • AnneCecilia z5 MI
    15 years ago

    A bit of explanation: Karenforroses and I belong to the same rose society. I was there with Karen when our fellow member brought out her sample cuttings from her sick roses. With encouragement from us, she has been trying to register and post here, (esp. after Ann asked for more information) but seems to be having difficulties. Until we can sort that out with her, she has asked that Karen or I post this message for her. What follows is from the owner of the sick roses, (her login name is Omasroses:)

    "These are my roses. All affected roses are adjacent to each other. I have three raised (berms) beds with 4 ft. wide paths separating them There are affected roses in all three beds this year. Two years ago one roses had deformed shoots like the picture--I just cut it off and the rose seemed okay after that and did bloom. Last year two more adjacent roses showed the same deformed shoots--I searched the internet but was unable to find an answer so I just did the same--cut back the bad parts. Now this year 11 roses are involved--7 David Austin, 2 climbers (Eden and New Dawn) and 2 Jacques Cartier. I again searched for an answer and thought the symptoms most closely matched with Spring Dwarf. I thought I had better dig them out and destroy them. I took samples to our Rose Society and my friends offered to post it on this sight and suggested that Round Up may be the problem. I have used it to control grass around the perimeter of the berms and in the paths for weeds. I was careful and used it on a windless day--however I now am learning that this may be my problem. I will try the iodine test when I can find some and in the meantime I am taking samples to a diagnostic clinic at MI State extension office. Thank you all for responding to help me. I will let you know what I learn."

    Me again...Thanks everyone for weighing in on this problem! I hope we can help Omasroses - her garden is absolutely beautiful and it would be a tragedy to have to start ripping out huge parts of it.
    Anne

  • dan_keil_cr Keil
    15 years ago

    Annececilia,
    The comment you made about taking a sample to you state Extension office is the best advice I can give you too. They have the equipment to properly find out what the problem is.
    I did notice between the two pictures,that the normal sample doesn't have many thorns and the bad sample does.

  • daisy735
    15 years ago

    Having had all along similar damage to my rose bushes too. Small percentage maybe 1-2 shoots on each bush. As John indicated, shoots that almost appear malnurished and deformed. Have variety of roses, size, age, locations, but just a home gardener with 18 roses. Have been unable to determine cause but it does not seem to affect growth, bloom or general health of the rose. I do use bayer products-problem at its worst in the spring before I treat them, if thats a clue. Is it possibly uncontrolled aphids?
    John, please notice if they form at a certain time-mine do seem to be the same size. They don't seem to get bigger or maybe I pinch them out-I'm going to notice.

  • omasroses
    15 years ago

    Just wanted you to know that the MSU extension offices both locally and at Lansing MI have told me that the problem with my roses is characteristic of glyphosate. Growth regulator-type herbicides (2,4-D, dicamba, triclopyr) can also cause this symptom if accidentally misapplied. So this is good news for me--I won't be using any lawn weed killer or Round-Up anywhere near my roses and hope that next year my problem will be gone. Thanks for all of your responses and help.

  • User
    15 years ago

    I would be pretty certain thats Glyphosate damage. If you use a sprayer that atomizes the spray into very fine particles, its not difficult to have enough of the mist drift far enough to cause damage. Some sprayers do not atomize to very fine mist and are more appropriate for RoundUp application in sensitive areas.

  • AnneCecilia z5 MI
    15 years ago

    A real reminder that even when we think we're being very careful with chemicals, we may not be quite careful enough.
    I am so sorry for Omasroses that her garden suffered this year, but so relieved that it is something that should be easy to correct...and that it's NOT RRD raising it's ugly head (yet) in my corner of the world!

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