In my experience - I have never grown a rose that get as much BS as GAT. On top of that I have also rarely seen this rose without leaves crinkled from powdery mildew. Disease resistance is IMO non - existent. Even sprayed a lot more than other roses it lost more than 50 percent of it leaves and looks like canes with flowers ... Mine gotta go ... last year I am putting up with it ...

thanks for your experience- i'm a non spray gardener and definitely want low maintenance roses

It didn't blackspot in my corner of Southern CA, but it sure mildewed uncontrollably -- and is, therefore, No Longer With Us.

Jeri

GaT is beyond difficult. The only one I've ever seen that approached perfection was growing under the expert care of Malcolm Manners in the rose gardens at Florida State. FWIW, Dr Manners' plant was grafted on Fortuniana.

It must grow really well on its own roots somewhere. Does anyone have a clue where that might be? Unfortunate that it's so difficult, because no other rose I can think of has quite that vivid crimson coloring -- certainly no other OGR. Wonderful fragrance, too!

Depending on one's point of view, rosedom has been either eternally blessed or cursed by GaT. He's the pollen parent of what is perhaps the most frequently propagated rose in history: The ubiquitous 'Dr Huey'.

It must grow really well on its own roots somewhere.

Why?

The idea that roses that were never intended to be grown own-root now must struggle along without a rootstock is going to end up condemning a lot of roses.

I have an own root that is one of the stars of the garden here for over 6 years. It will need spraying in a hot humid climate similar to mine. Repeat is excellent and fragrance is super. Can you tell I value this rose??

I am about 200 NW of the metroplex area. My Gat did well for a couple of years, then would succumb to blackspot and mildew with regularity. A gorgeous rose when it is good, richly fragrant and floriferous. But it it so seldom good, not worth the real estate, at least not here.

Over here we have mostly grafted roses and I saw a couple of GaTs in public gardens that looked reasonably well - I don't know how much they were pampered though. I would think it is more a collector's rose, which might do ok in specific climate/soil conditions and with specific care.

Also, on HMF among the photos are shots by Bierkreek, kwekerij, de - it is organic rose grower over here, so I suppose it is possible to grow it without heavy chemistry.

My Gruss an Teplitz, planted in 1997, is one of my most perfect roses, never sick and always in flower, although they are not many at any one time. It sometimes blooms as late as November. My climate is dry, my soil is heavy clay and I don't spray. The shrub is not tall, never more than 5 ft and skinny, and it grows in a mixed border with other roses and perennials. I will not hear a word against it!

Mad Gallica, Rudolf Geschwind never intended that GaT should be grown on its own roots? Is his position on that documented somewhere? What other OGRs remaining in commerce were intended only to be grown grafted?

Now I'm kind of perplexed by the fact that the World Federation of Rose Societies would have nominated for its Hall of Fame in the OGR category an old rose (that would be GaT) that was never intended to be grown on its own roots.

I suppose, many of OGRs where not intended to be grown own root by their original breeders, simply because grafting the roses was a norm at that time.

Which also means that the lack of vigor of original shrub could be remedied by grafting, to a certain extend, also susceptibility to the disease depend on ability to feed, so grafted rose could be much healthier in certain cases.

Gruss an Teplitz, from 1897, is a modern rose in comparison to the really old roses. I think it highly unlikely that it was grown ownroot at that time. I doubt that Geschwind had much thought on the issue, grafting was the norm in his day. Still is in Sweden and the rest of Europe. It's difficult to find ownroot roses apart from pass-along plants.

My GaT had terrible blackspot. Had to toss it. Which is too bad because when it was healthy, it sure bloomed a lot.
But it spent most of its time naked.

No blackspot or powdery mildew here. Gruss an Teplitz, grows here, a little short rose. It had to be heavily pruned this spring, but bounced back much better than many others.
It's on its own roots. I got it from Greenmantle nursery 3 years ago.
It takes 4 years of patience to get a big rose going here.
I wasn't all that fired up about the hot red color, but enjoyed the repeat blooming. So far, no bloom yet this year. I'd say this rose will make a nice short shrub around here, eventually.
It is about two feet now from being cut to the ground and should hit 3.5 feet by fall.
I see no problems with the lack of grafting.

For a no spray garden plant DOUBLE KNOCKOUT instead. Similar look but without the black spot woes.

"The idea that roses that were never intended to be grown own-root now must struggle along without a rootstock is going to end up condemning a lot of roses."

And they should be condemned. It is because of this practice that so many modern roses are lacking in vigor. No wonder people think roses are difficult to grow.

Double Knockout is no substitue for a very fragrant rose like GaT. Gruss an Teplitz has even been used as a rootstock with some success. The only roses that will be condemned ownroot are marginally hardy roses in colder climates; mostly hybrid teas and floribundas in areas where spring is cold and growing season is short.

I agree that Double Knouckout is rather poor substitute, it not only lacks fragrance, but also looks a bit like rosa plastica. It is of course a matter of taste.

Windeaux, thanks for the kind words, but that's an interesting issue -- it does, indeed, do very well for us, and I consider it an "average" bush for disease resistance, rebloom, etc. I like it. We do grow it on 'Fortuniana' roots, our form is rose-mosaic-free, and it is in a garden that is sprayed weekly during wet weather. But other roses all around it still get some black spot, some mildew, etc. And as I say, GaT is quite average in that regard.

I have a potentially glorious mystery rose, by which I mean that all it needs is to get some size on it, being slow--for which I'm considering an identification of GaT. Deep deep purplish red blooms, splendid fragrance, reblooming, strong China character; slow-growing but healthy and tough. I've never seen GaT, at least, not labeled as such.
Melissa

Melissa, I'd not call ours purplish red; rather, more true red to pinky-red (but never "pink"). I wonder if your rose might be what we call "Maggie," which has, in the past, been labeled GaT, and which does have more purple to it. See some photos, below. The link is to GaT photos, but you could search for Maggie there, as well.
Malcolm

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to my Flickr pages of rose photos

Here's Maggie, for comparison.
Malcolm

Here is a link that might be useful: Link to Maggie Pics

plant DOUBLE KNOCKOUT instead.

From the sublime to the ridiculous.

Best wishes
Jon

Malcolm,
Thanks! Looking at the pics, my rose looks more like GaT than like 'Maggie'. I don't think I'll be able to seriously research an id until my plant gets some size on it though. It is a sweet fine rose.
Melissa