Algae really isn't a problem! I have many of my plants wicked in "clear pots"--and have seen very very little green-when there even is some green under the soil--he he!

Besides--even if algae was there--I dont see how it would adversely affect the plants! Algae grows hand in hand with many species of plants--and so does moss!

Ryan

CONGRATS ON YOUR FIND!

Hi Bob B.
This is just my opinion, but if you have algae growing in your pots, it's a good thing. Algae growing in resovoirs, wicks, and capillary matting is a nuisance, but when it's in the soil it's a indicator that you are doing every thing right! The benefits of having algae in your soil are that it breaks down pretty quickly and will add more organic material to any soiless mix, AND it also feeds on the fertizer you are providing your plants so it prevents to some degree over fertilizing, or at least provides an easier to absorb fertilzer for your plants. The third benefit, I honestly have no scientific explanation for, but I have noticed that when the perlite in my mix get's really green with algae, I don't have to worry about any mold, mildew or fungus getting into the pot. I don't know why this is, but it is. It just may be that algae and fungus don't live comfortable in the same space...I don't really know? but for me it seems the algae wins.
Russell

Ryan and Russell,
Very interesting insights. Many thanks!
Bob

Yeah, thanks guys. I personally haven't seen much algae, except in my reservoirs. But then, the frequent repotting would tend to discourage it.

Korina (off to clean some reservoirs)

Hi all,

yw Bob.

I actually encourage algae in the soil. From time to time, I pour the green water from my reservoirs back into my water jugs to keep the "good green" going. Not all of my plants are wicked, and I even top water the wicked ones from time to time.

I fill my water jugs with filtered water, and add the fertizer, and then let them sit for two days before that water goes to the plants, so I guess you could say that I water my plants with "green water"/(cultivate algae as well). If there's enough oxygen (air) in the mix, the algae grows into to it very quickly and much more quickly than I can repot my plants.

Again, something I can't prove scientifically, but I have been warned time and time again about using fertilizer with "urea" -- I think my algae, converts urea into something safe for african violets, because I have no horror stories to tell about how peters 202020 burned the roots and eventually killed the plants, even though I have heard such stories from others.

I encourage anyone interested to experiment.
Russell

Russell,
So what's wrong or supposed to be wrong with urea?
I just bought a bottle of Schulz African violet food with urea??!!

Bob

Hi Bob,

Urea, is a chemical source of nitrogen for fertilizers. I believe it is derived from urine, and is very cheap for fertilizer manufacturers, which is why it is difficult to find fertilizers without it.

When using it in your garden outdoors, there is no problem because there are many algaes, microbes, etc. which break it down quickly. African Violets are more sensitive, and since we all "ideally" use sterile, soiless potting mix, the urea in fertilizer does not break down as quickly to a form of nitrogen AV's can assimilate. If it builds up in the soil, it burns the feeder roots on AV's and stunts their growth, and many say it eventually kills the plants. I do believe having algae growing in my soil, and my water bottles mitigates this problem to a certain degree. I still use Peters 20-20-20 every third month, and have no horror stories to tell.

It would be great if Peter's 20-20-20 went back to a urea free formula.

Russell

Hi Russell,
I have noticed that our minis have grown exceedingly slowly and do seem to be stunted. I went to check on the Ortho liquid AF food which we had been using to see if it had urea, but my wife already tossed it. I suspect it did. In any case, the Schulz does have it. I'll try to find a formulation without urea and see if that corrects the stunting problem. Thanks>

Bob

Could you grow a moss on the soil of youre AV? That might look nice. but would it have any horrifying effects to them? And i have two small Glass "pots" not sure how much they hodl but it have it for a leaf cutting and i see algae growing in it so it must be doing good. Acording to what every one has said

Cheers

Hi Bob,
Peters Specialties for Av's and Optimara's both have no urea, unfortunately neither comes with a 20-20-20 forumulation. But as I've said, aglae is the next level imo, in overcoming the economics of fertilizer technology.
Russell

Some info on urea. It's not made from urine. Where would they get that much urine? Besides, urine is highly contaminated with other substances. This tells how it's made, and that the way plants take it up is exactly the same way they use Ammonium Nitrate nitrogen.

I've used Schultz on my AV's for years, but then, I only use it 1/4 strength.

Here is a link that might be useful: Urea

Oh bruggirl100 :(,
You should do some more research! You might be amazed when you discover how many 'porta-pottie' (you know, the one's they post at street fairs and state fairs) companies, sell their collection on the cheap to fertilizer, and pharmaceutical (yes pharma!) companies.
All plants take nitrogen through their roots in the same way. If that nitrogen is in an undigestible form, they don't, because they can't. It would be the same as you swollowing an iron nail, instead of taking a chelated iron supplement which you can swollow with a gulp of water! The point is - for violets, there is a big difference between urea and ammonium nitrate. Of course, if you only use it at 1/4 stregnth it is to be assumed that it will be much less destructive to your plant, or your soil mix has had the time to digest the urea for your plants first. Who knows, maybe you have algae that you don't know about?
;)
Russell

Let's all take it under advisement that Schultz AV fertilizer is safe to use at 1/4 strength, and hope that someday a fertilizer company steps up to the plate, and produces the perfect AV formulation for our plants. Schultz doesn't even get AV soil right yet!

This discussion on urea is interesting. I've looked at a number of sources on the web and found a lot of conflicting information. Some sources say urea burns; others say it doesn't, etc. Then when you see the top manufacturers (Miracle Gro, Schulz) marketing African Violet food with urea you really wonder. Why would it be in their long term interest to market a product that harms your plants? Beats me!

In any case, I finally found a little nursery that sells Peter's African Violet food with no urea, and I purchased some. Will use it just to be safe, but I have the feeling that using the urea in reduced dosages would be safe enough.

Bob

Hi Bob,

You wrote: [Then when you see the top manufacturers (Miracle Gro, Schulz) marketing African Violet food with urea you really wonder. Why would it be in their long term interest to market a product that harms your plants? Beats me!]

Money makes the world go round...
Why don't either of these companies market a correct soil for AV's? especially when AVSA provides so much culture information for it's members? Why does Optimara and Anthoflores sell violets in "peat" and "fertilizer" to Walmart, Kmart, etc. for you to buy...??? [They want your plants to die, so that you buy more.]

If the short term interest, isn't their long term interest, they don't care about your long term interest. Spend your money wisely, my friend. They count on you buying what they can provide cheaply, to keep their business profitable.

Russell

Couple of interesting quotes from that site:

'*How fast does urea convert to nitrate-nitrogen?*
It depends on the environmental conditions. When soil conditions are favorable for microbial activity, in other words, warm, moist, proper pH and so forth, the conversion is quiet rapid.'

'*Is the nitrogen in urea different from nitrogen in "organic fertilizers" in terms of plant nutrition?*
No; the ammoniac nitrogen or nitrate nitrogen taken up by plants is chemically identical regardless of the source. Nitrate or ammonium that results from urea application is indistinguishable from the nitrate or ammonium that results from manure application. A plant utilizes inorganic ions, and the source of these nutrients is irrelevant to either the yield or quality of the fruit, grain, or vegetative matter produced by the plant.'

So you *do* need bacterial action to break down urea (whatever the source) into a form usable by the plant. Or maybe just more quickly. But since I'm (ideally) repotting my minis every three months, does it have time to break down? They all *seem* to do fine when I switch to the MiracleGro (alternating with Optimara).

Korina

'I am a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar.' -Wash

Hi Bob and Korina,

Korina, I am really getting tired of you seeming so smart sometimes, and then so "stupid" when you wannabe!

Since you're so in the know, why don't miracle grow, or shultz market a true AV soil? I would have loved it, had you answered that question, instead of adding to the urea controversy.

Your response here was actually correct. Plants can take in Nitrogen in only one way. It's source doesn't matter. Plants don't take Urea, or Ammonium Nitrate at all.

Again you are right, that it all depends on the conditions. I am surprised that you think Urea breaks down as quickly ammonium nitrate? (For plants it's like comparing an iron nail to a chelated iron supplement in your stomach)! MAYBE, algae is a condition, and you have more than you wish to admit, and like me have learned how to use urea without harming your plants. Conditions, conditions...

So let's drop the fertilizer controversy..........
Why don't any of these mass marketers (Miracle Grow, Schultz etc.) market a viable AV potting mix? My reasoning for asking is that I assume, if they can't produce the proper mix, they don't even care about getting the fertilizer right. These big companies don't really care about their consumers do they?

Violet growers have been beating the odds for decades!...Hell, I can grow violets in clay pots, in garden soil, in a window.

Urea, does come from urine, it's even named after urine. It's potent Nitrogen, but I'm still waiting to meet someone whose lawn wasn't burned brown by dog pee! (And grass is so much more tolerant than our violets are!) Until I do, I don't think horticultural suppliers should use urea in their fertilizers, at least not until they get their potting mixes right first.

Soar baby, fly away....
Russell

Russell, I was quoting from bruggirl's urea site. I have no idea what breaks down first.

As for the big guys and their so-called AV mixes -- I guess it's what's cheap? They don't think the general public are smart enough to water them properly? Your guess is as good as mine. I've given up trying to understand the corporate mentality.

What you need to do, is dilute that urine for your garden. So just pee in a bucket of water and feed your plants! Or not.

Korina (Got to see Serenity for the fourth time; feeling inadequate due to the woman at the theater who saw it eight times. Still love the movie.)

'Guy killed me Mal, killed me with a sword. How weird is that?' -Mr. Universe's last message.

LOL...Korina, you always make me laugh! I can afford good fertilizers dear, and make them work...so I hope you weren't suggesting I'm a dog! "pee in a bucket of water and feed your plants"! LOL
Russell

Russell, I'm *not* suggesting you're a dog. Think of it as recycling.

Korina

'...I'll be in my bunk.' -Jayne (the Hero of Canton)

Urea:
As others have said, it is a CHEAP source of nitrogen which is why so many companies use it in fertilizer. It is not inherently bad, but does require bacteria to break it down for the plant to use. The thing is that this is mostly fine for out door plants, but most indoor plants lead an isolated life and do not get exposed to all the bacteria that would tend to break down the urea.

So aside from potentially burning your plant, the urea might not be much used at all, and hence not accomplish the goal you had in mind by adding fertilizer.

Algae:
Algae is pretty harmless stuff, but can be an unattractive nusiance. Particularly if you use wick or mat watering where it will clog up your resevoirs, wicks and mats. A product called Physan 20 does a great jog of solving this issue if you consider it to be a problem.

Ardy

LOL...have you read the discussion Ardy?
When growing violets, algae imo isn't harmless, it's helpful against the cheap stuff...and it flourishes in the conditions as AV'do. It can be a nusiance when we are lazy. Lazy growers deserve clogged up reservoirs, wicks and mats imo. All physan 20 does is remove a very good barometer to good AV culture imo, I think it may also make all of those urea based fertilizers unbearable to AV's! What a shame.

Russell

Hi Russell,

From my growing experience algae is not something what I want. I have almost 500 plants and find I am forced to take some short cuts (like wick watering) to take care of all of them. I find it is also too time demanding to clean wicking containers and mats as often as often you might suggest. I regret that you seem to think I am a lazy grower (since I do use Physan to reduce algae).
What I do is to soak my mats in Physan 20 solution before using.. and I also using it in my wicking containers - difference is striking.

I disagree with your opinion that "lazy growers" like me deserve "clogged up reservoirs, wicks and mats". It is our hobby and all we want is to have a nice happy blooming plants with the amount of time we are able to dedicate to them.

From my point of view - there is not only one way to grow violets, there are many - depending what is working for every single grower.

Happy growing!
Alena

Russell
I did read the previous discussion where you speculated about the usefulness of algae when using urea fertilizers.

As it happens, we do not use the "cheap" fertilizers with urea in them and so we have no need for algae. The algae that does grow in our plants is therefore using the nitrogen we would like to feed to our violets and we therefore prefer to avoid it.

In any case, thanks for your advice on the proper way to grow violets with urea based fertilizers.

Ardy

Hi Ardy,

In case you hadn't noticed, THIS IS the previous (iyo) discussion on algae in pots. If you can recommend a 20-20-20 urea free fertilize (or a good commercial violet soil mix for that matter), I'd be the first to buy it! I'm still pissed that Peter's converted theirs to urea 6 or 7 years ago. I know they have something like 14-15-16 that's urea free that they only make available to licensed nurseries, in huge quantity...the corporate mentality! Maybe what's cheap for you is expensive for me? IMO, I don't use cheap fertilizers either, but none of the formulas match 20-20-20 to get babies to grow, or to "green-up" overly variegated plants. ( btw. ;) the cheepest source of ammonia on the market is the 'porta-pottie companies' -- I read your other post about urea...)

My question for today is why would anyone want to use Physan20? Algea cells die and break down much faster than urea does, so what if they use a little nitrogen? The rest becomes fertilizer for the violets, organic fertilizer!

To Alena, I know we all grow in different ways. My issue is with the products we're being given to grow with, and the people who want to defend them. It's not hard to figure out. Algae is at the base of the food chain. If you had a bit more time to spend with your plants, you might not be so quick to kill it off.

Russell

Russell

""If you can recommend a 20-20-20 urea free fertilize""

Any particular reason it has to be 20 20 20?

""Peter's converted theirs to urea 6 or 7 years ago. I know they have something like 14-15-16""

Peters has a pete light that we buy--- not 20 20 20 tho

''I don't use cheap fertilizers either, but none of the formulas match 20-20-20 to get babies to grow, or to "green-up"""

Have you tried fish emulsion.... both in the soil and as foliar feed it is excellent

"" ( btw. ;) the cheepest source of ammonia on the market is the 'porta-pottie companies' -- I read your other post about urea...) ""

OK.... find a link ... I searched and found nothing other than refernces to sewage sludge.... and as a matter of fact, if you want to use that, it is not only cheap, they will pay you to take it. The raw materials of sewage are admittedly cheap, however the processing to get to pure ammonia makes it more expensive (until you can show me a link otherwise)

Agriculture uses millions of tons of fertilizer. As you can image this must come from large factories. I can get you names an location of many factories that do not use Porta potties. You get me one that uses porata poties as the basis of their production.

""My question for today is why would anyone want to use Physan20? ""

I use Mat and wick watering and algae clogs up the mats and the wicks without it.... That is why I use it

Ardy

Yeah...Pete Lite!

that's 14-15-16, or 15-16-17 or something like that, it's available to licensed nurserys in huge quantities and you have to buy it like 50 lbs at a time!... it's not available to home growers.

Peter's Specialities, and Optimara Fertilizers are much more expensive. so why did you insinuate I'm an idiot using cheap fertilizer Ardy?

The corporate mentality reavealed.

alenamarie/ardy/goosegardens?

You've been having a conversation with me using two different usernames, (check out the discussion above folks!--s/he didn't even let me respond between each post!)

So much for credibility!

As I've discussed above, algea is great at breaking down the urea in fertilizers, even if it does come from porta potties...hmmm... they actually pay you to take it ms. peter's or ms. miraclegrow....that is cheap!

I suppose the question of the hour, besides why urea free fertilizer is such a commodity, (yeah!) really is why all of these companies market AV soil that becomes sludge before our eyes!?!

Ms. Goose, since you have the luxury of Pete Lite, there's no need for you to promote physan20 to those of us who don't.

Thank you so much for sharing. I really mean that.

Russell

Looks like pee on Earth day was in July!

We missed it!

Check out this eco-creative website, link below...

minibot (however I can't find any evidence to prove that the big companies resell us our recycled urine, but I'm looking! I think that'd be great, but they would definitely have to disclose that on the label I'd think! I mean, they have to put a warning on things that exist naturally to fight fungus gnats...)

Here is a link that might be useful: Liquid Gold, no I'm not kidding

OK... this has been very interesting, but what is the solution for Physan 20.. how much to a gallon should one use for wicking. I scrub all my reserviors and wick pots each week, as algae begins to build up in the water. It is my understand that Physan will help to control algae.

Thanks
Tea

Hi Tea,
BTW very nice nickname...
From my info recommended dose for violets is usually 1/4 tsp. per gallon - i use less. But recently I started just to put one single drop of Physan into my wicking containers and from time to time I soak my mats in diluted Physan.

Tea,
How much you use "depends." The label rate is 1 teaspoon per gallon. If you use this rate, you WILL not have algae, but usually much less is required and I prefer to use the least as is required..

Wicking reservoirs:
Usually a drop or two per container does the job(depending from size). And you might not need to add this amount every time you add water maybe every other refill or so.

Matt watering:
The thing here is that you want to have a nice strong initial soaking of the matts so for this initial soaking you could use 1 tsp per gallon solution. The after that go to a much weaker dilution maybe ¼ tsp per gallon.

Perlite in your soil:
I do not think algae on soil (obvious on perlite) is bad thing. I met people who do not like it. In that case let the soil get a little on the dry side use the stronger dilution (1 tsp per gallon) Then after that go to a weaker dilution 1/8-1/4 tsp per gallon.

Generally you need less physan when you use plain water, and more when you are fertilizing. It is especially about fish emulsion. I think FE is great algae trigger. I use it anyway since my plants love it.

I am not sure if you will agree with this, maybe try with couple of plants first. This works for me in my growing conditions.
Happy growing!
Alena

Hi Tea,

The solution for physan20, is to simply not use it, unless you are using a urea free fertilizer.

Algae is not a bad thing.

Russell

I agree with you, this has been interesting, alena/goose/ardy are still a mystery to anyone who's been following these threads. Why should anyone believe them? They've turned this discussion on the 'benefits of algea' and 'corporaterate ignorance and irresponsibility', into an advertisement for physan20. Korina may be on to something with her coconut bricks!!! Where can I buy one?

Russell, check your local nursery or hydroponics store. I can get them for a couple of bucks.

Korina

I am new here,calling posters "stupid" and disparaging their postings, is this typical? Is it permitted? Maybe I am in the wrong Forum.
Julysun
Houston

I am reminded of the worker that bragged of 30 years experience. Then his boss noted that it was 3 years experience 10 times.

Julysun -

this forum is an extremely polite, cordial etc. etc.

But anyone of us can have a bad hair day - and we just stay patient until it is over. So do not put yourself into a defensive position. Sometimes we feel strong about something -
even passionate - like using pesticides (or not), or what big box stores do to our beloved plants or why not to trust
ads. But we criticize opinions, not people.

Welcome to the AV family

Irina

Very well said, Irina.

And welcome, Julysun.

Korina (wake me up when it's time to go home)

Korina - wake up NOW and go home - me too - my bus leaves in 15 min.

Where is our dear Russel - wee didn't hear from him for some time... Life is getting too bland without him, we need some Tabasco!

I.

Ok sorry guys but was reading this old thread and am here to tell you that peters now makes a urea free mix. I bought this 8oz package called "Peters Specialties" last summer at lowes, but now lowes has discontued carrying it so you need to order online, but the pack I bought will most likely outlast me. It is a 14-36-12 mix