OMG, now thats plagerism or how ever you spell it.

One of the reviews mentions this forum.

Some one is in a lot of trouble.
Ron

LOL Alberta - I think the term you are looking for is copyright, but I know what you mean.

Plagerism is the copying of someone else material, without giving credit to the person originally that coined the term, etc. I've been spending alot of time over on the Hot Topics Forum, LOL and its been used over there, but I knew the meaning before that, :) As far as I know Trudi's info is copyrighted and that person, Monica someone or other has no business using it to publish something Trudi has copyrighted. I'm wondering if those are her (Monica's) own pictures or if they too were taken from either this site or Trudi's. Damn, I'm fuming. I used to have Trudi's phone number but don't know where it is now.

Yep, that's what I was thinking too Ron. Someone's in big doggie doo-doo!

I wasn't poking fun Alberta, I was just pointing out that when someone takes something fixed in a tangible form and is attempting to receive a pecuniary benefit from the taking, the remedy is copyright regardless of whether it's registered or not. I'm always thinking of litigation.

Sometimes it's tedious to be around me. Forgive me.

From looking at a review, it's stated that she got her information from websites and our forum, here, at GW. Giving credit for information found doesn't seem to make this issue any better, I know. It's still something to think on.

Even more, though - if they know the forum well enough, then, Who Is It?? I know most of us wouldn't ever have thought to publish a book full of information other people here have been sharing, but someone did. I'm not going into any discussions of legality or ethics, here, but I AM very very curious to see if they'll be dropping in. :/

Just FYI - - this author is a gardenweb member. I knew I'd seen that particular spelling of Garden Faeire around here (this forum and others)and I did a search. One of her favorite GW forums is Wintersowing (smile) and she lives in Michigan.

Perhaps there is some explaination that she will chime in with... I'd imagine that Trudy will want to chat her "off line" to see what's what. This does seem to be the kind of booklet that we've all thought Trudy should write. I'd be interested in possibly buying a couple for friends who are intrigued but don't use computers much. But I certainly won't until Trudy chimes in on her thoughts about this booklet! Wintersowing is clearly her domain to publish about and I think it would be so unfair if all this info was just highjacketed for profit.

Nancy

I ordered a copy...let's see what happens. It apears that Monica teaches WS and that this may be her course manual, and as she has bulk rates I assume that the printing is for the classes she teaches at clubs and other associations. I happen to have my own ring binder and a few printers so I know the amount of work that goes into the production, so her fee is not annoying.

I do allow duplication of the work on WinterSown.Org for educational and non-profit purposes, but credit must be given where credit it due. I need to know more about Monica, what she does, where she teaches, her presence on the web, etc. If anyone knows Monica have her drop by this thread and say hi.

Once I read her copy she may or may nor get some suggestions from me for any changes in the text and/or credits. Right off the top she's suggesting 2" soil but I think 3" is better, so minimally for quality control that should be changed.

bakemom: You talk like a lawyer:-) Sooo......... What if Trudi give carte blanche permission for duplication of materials for for education and non-profit purposes, but it is being sold for a profit....

Get my drift? Even if a profit of only a penny per copy, it can add up.

Karen

Bakemom, I know, that's why I put in the LOL and the fact that I've been hanging my hat at the Hot topics forum, :)
its not tedious to be around you, I read everything you write. What pissed me off was the article in one of the newspapers, no mention of Trudi, only a mention of this forum and its where she learned about WS. She should be giving credit where its due.
Alberta

Trudi, I don't know Monica but she has an email address on one of her web sites pages. I sent her an email asking her to please stop by this topic.

in her blog there are pictures of her "book" sold at a local gardenstore....

Copyright law is found in title 17 of the United States Code. Read it: it's interesting. States also have their own copyright and trademark statutes. Whether or not liabilty exists is up to an attorney specializing in intellectual property.

It seems like she loves teaching and sharing her knowledge and is good at it. However, wintersowing is supposed to be completely non-profit so who is to know if she is making a profit? And if it is on the up-and-up why did she not go to Trudi and tell her of her thoughts on doing this and be upfront about it? That is what makes me mad.

I did recognise her name. She is no stranger to GW or the Wintersowing forum.

I don't know about the legality of the use of this material, but ethics is another whole issue.

Karen

Here is a link that might be useful: search results

I am completely amazed that people on this forum think that Trudi invented winter sowing. It has been done for hundreds (thousands?) of years. Trudi generously put up a website and is even more generous with her advice and support here at GW. But there is no invention.

Imagine if someone had a website about other types of propogation like air layering or grafting. What would be wrong with publishing a book with your own pics and experiences with propagation? What is the difference?

I am glad to see that someone has published information about it. I want more and more people to learn about it, because it is just a good thing to do. I have no idea why people here think the idea is somehow owned and/or protected. It is fair game, in my opinion.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a sink full of draining milk jugs that need to be taken out to the back yard.

Good gardening to you.

gardenscout
Trudi has NEVER said she invented winter sowing. She did, however, update the technique to be useful to gardeners in this century.
Yes, she has been very, very generous in distributing information about 'what works' to the gardeners here and at her website. Wintersown is a 'dot org'. She makes not a dime off of her ideas.
Should someone else?
IMHO, most certainly not.

A member of this forum emailed me and told me to take a look at this thread. I posted to this forum quite frequently several years ago. I have been winter sowing four years. I teach gardening classes, some on winter sowing. When I spoke at a Michigan master gardener conference in 2006, both of my proctors were so excited for people to learn about winter sowing they suggested I write a book on the topic. I've been working as a writer for 20 years and it seemed like a good idea.

I contacted Trudi early on in the process of writing the book, in July 2006, telling her about my book idea and asking her if she wanted to write an introduction that provided information on how SHE came up with the idea. She did write back but did not end up providing that intro.

The booklet CLEARLY ACKNOWLEDGES not only this forum but the fact that winter sowing is Trudi's idea. I would never try to take credit for her idea. It is a great idea and a hobby I've enjoyed. The booklet stresses that it is about *my own experiences* with WS. I did not copy any of Trudi's words or photos.

It is expensive to produce the booklets--first there is the time and effort of writing it, photographing it, and laying it out. Next is duplication costs--paper, a laser printer, and toner. Then there is the covers, plastic binding combs, the cost of envelopes and labels to mail out, and the time to bind and mail the booklets. I am covering my costs.

If anyone has any other questions or concerns, please contact me directly and I will be happy to chat with you.

Trudi, if you don't recall our email exchange, please email me privately. I just got notification of your PayPal payment. You certainly deserve a free courtesy copy, but I can't reverse the payment. Instead, I will enclose a refund check with your booklet.

Monica Milla
gardenfaerie02@yahoo.com

Thank you Monica,

I and WinterSown.Org have always been a friend of extension. I looked in my files and didn't see a record of our emails, but considering my friendship with extension I see no reason why you I wouldn't have contacted you a few times. But emails can go amiss on transit, so no harm no foul. I do believe however that I would never have granted permission for .com usage as AgNIC prevents me from doing that. If you offer the booklet freely in pdf version too then that would be just fine.

Trudi

That is a great idea Trudi, and something that would make everyone happy! I would love a copy of the book that I could download a version in pdf that would be great!

Well, as winter sowers all we can develop that. I've started a wiki and when it's ready we can begin taking on the FAQs for WSers input and graphics.

T

she has been very, very generous in distributing information

That is exactly what I said.

GardenScout,

I developed something called the Winter Sowing Germination Method---it's not the eons old way of seeding a filed with a fall crop for soil improvement or fodder, etc.

WSGM is the method that was last year entered into the NAL Thesaurus--THIS is what we're talking about, not the one you are saying.

not the eons old way of seeding a filed with a fall crop for soil improvement or fodder, etc.

Definitely not what I am talking about. All I know is that my grandmother used to sow seeds in the fall. She seemed to know which ones were okay with that. And when I told my elderly neighbor about winter sowing, she said it's what they used to do in the "old country" (Italy).

Even on the back of the packages of seeds that need cold strat they sometimes say to sow them in the fall after frost. It's just not a new thing. The difference today is that we have plastic containers and the Internet.

I am not going to get into it with you. I was just posting in support of someone publishing a book on the subject.

Spring is right around the corner. Have a great season.

The difference today is that we have plastic containers and the Internet.

Yes, my point exactly--I'm glad you agree with me, we have innovation and not invention ;-)

T

gardenscout,
Uh, I know - I was agreeing. That's why the first word in the sentence is "Yes".

I LOVE WINTERSOWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone have some germination and warm weather they could share with me?

I would love a free PDF version to download!
Etravia

Gardenluv-I'm sorry-no germination or warm weather. it snowed AGAIN today:-( But I did cheat and started 50 peat pots with sunflowers and morning glories, they're almost two inches high now (95% germ.)I have them in a 55gal fish tank with a grow light and lined with aluminum foil. Some times I just go downstairs and smell them, weird huh? I also started okra which I love but living in Michigan figured this was my only chance! I would also like to thank everyone who has gracefully shared their knowledge, time, sweat, and tears for the greater good of gardening. Brandy
PS Trudi thanks for the seeds I started your okra,pumpkins, and the silkweed(I'm ordering Monarch eggs in may) B

I have nothing inside, but my son does. We have 8 Jalapeno plants starting to bud now, 4 cucumber plants, 2 serano plants about 50 tomato plants (11 of which are about 5" tall and look great!), 4 pots of Dahlias, a pot of columbine, a pot of blanket flower, a pot of forget-me-nots, and a pot of something else. What is funny, they are all in one window area. We had to put a shelving unit in front of the window to accomodate them all. It is like have a jungle inside! I do however have 15 Dianthus sprouts outside, and 2 Dahlia sprouts outside. WOO HOO!!! Spring is definately on its way!

Gardenluv, I don't have any outside sprouts 'cause this is what my yard looks like!! B {{gwi:356342}}

Here is a link that might be useful: {{gwi:356342}}

The wiki is up and running, if anyone wants to participate as an editor/contributor please contact me.

Trudi

WOW, I hope your having a lawyer look into this Trudi!
Kinda like asking a freind for a recipe, making one ingredient change then selling as if yours.
The slap in the face is no proceeds are forwarded wintersown.org for the continued not for profit educational efforts of Trudi.
Shame on you faerie, shame on you.
I will make a point of this as MG for Penn State University, send it out on their server.

Trudi,

I just wanted to say thanks so much for having your website Wintersowing.org and for sharing your information that you put so much time in to perfect! I taught a class with Community Ed and handed out your website info and the students just loved it AND YOU!!! Please look into hiring an attorney to protect your rights - I am an artist and had designed artwork for 2 jackets for our drag race team (my husband and I) - this was 10 years ago. Imagine my surprise when I found out the owner of the embroidery comapny had been selling my design all over the country and Canada AND on the internet through Jo-Ann Fabrics and another Embroidery website! After I cooled off, contact was made with the owner and we ended up settling without even hiring an attorney and she stopped any more of my designs being sold with a cease and desist order on all of the companies that bought it. I learned in a hurry that not everybody is as honest as I wanted to believe - protect what you worked so hard to create, Trudi - you have earned it! Good luck...we all support you and appreciate what you have done for us!
Jodi
mngardener1

My first introduction to Winter Sowing is related to Trudi and the contributions she's made to the Garden Web forums and her own website. For that I'm thankful.
This lead me to doing more research on the topic of winter sowing.
In doing so I came across various websites - two of which proved very insightful.
Anyone interested in exploring the subject of winter sowing and it's historical origins may find the links below informative.

1. http://www.alchemy-works.com/fall_planting.html
See ... " Winter/solstice Sowing"

2. http://www.ofnc.ca/fletcher/alphabet/startingseeds.php
See... Starting seeds outdoors

This does not sound entirely on the up and up.
If this is not the first attempt to bootleg Trudi's Wintersown Brand then she should be willing to offer it in pdf freely and stop all further attempts to copy and/or market Trudi's brainchild

Trudi, you Do have a lot to take credit for, don't sell yourself short! Although you didn't "create gardening", you can take a lot of credit for the wintersowing info on the internet, I don't care what anybody else says! The person that stole my artwork was selling it for 10 years before I came accross it when another embroidery company was selling it in my home town! Don't just pass this off as a coincidence, YOU should be making money off of your hard work, not her! Don't let this go!

I think this is the "there are no new ideas" problem. The method is slightly different in that plastic recyclables are used, but people were WS in clay pots left outdoors all winter for decades.

When the 'Lasagna Gardening' book came out, everyone thought it was a new and great idea. Well, Ruth Stout (long deceased) wrote many books 50 years ago based on that idea. Just look at all the movies that come out that are really recycled movies with different names and characters. What is done is done and I especially thank Trudi for introducing me to the new way of WS.

A long time ago when the internet was so big, and GardenWeb didn't have as many forums, I received seeds from Alaska. On the pks., it said the seeds needed stratification in the fridge for a certain amount of time. I remember asking in a forum if I could just put the seeds outside in the winter, because I figured it was a logical thing to do. I was told no by a couple people, I should follow the pkg. directions. I decided to plant them out anyway.
I didn't get any to germinate the next spring. I don't know if they blew away, got eaten by birds, or maybe they were just bad. I also attempted this with a few other seeds a few other years and got spotty germination.
Trudi's idea of giving them a nice safe environment in cheap(or free) containers is innovative and great.(Kanuck in "See ... Winter/solstice Sowing" I believe this is a direct reference to Wsing when Americans using cheap plastic containers are mentioned. No one was recommending cheap throw away plastic containers before this forum.) I first attempted this a few years ago and to have whole containers full of seedlings in the spring was great. Many of them sprout so well, the containers looks like freshly grown grass! Since the success rate is so high, it gave me, and others, the ability to start hundreds of varieties in an easy and inexpensive manner that other wise it would of taken me years to attempt growing.
Remy