Lasagna gardening ?

16 years ago

I'm not sure what I'm doing. lol How do you know what a "green" is and what a "brown" is? Why are coffee grounds green? They look brown to me. I'm trying to figure out how to come up with greens at this horrid time of the year. I'm wondering if I can even have my lasagna garden ready by late spring because of not being able to obtain green materials. I guess my lasagna garden won't really be much of a "lasagna" style. It's not like I'm strictly adhering to the brown-green-brown style since I'm lacking a layer of green. My lasagna garden is more of a brown-brown-smattering of green. I have cardboard boxes and newspapers for the base. Are they both brown? I don't mean I put them on top of each other but that when I ran out of one to cover the grass, I covered the rest of the grass with the other. So the first layer is a combination newspaper/cardboard layer. It's impossible to get fresh grass clippings this time of the year but I would be able to add some of those in the spring. On top of the base layer I dumped out garbage bags full of leaves, and everything after that has been getting put on top of those. I've been throwing out any vegetable and fruit peels that I have, tea bags, some coffee grounds, and maybe a few other things I can't think of offhand. I really don't think that things can rot up this time of the year with our freezing temperatures we have most of the time. Will it be okay if I just keep adding onto the top of what I have here at the house and then add grass clippings in the spring? Maybe I can try to tuck the grass clippings under the leaves and other things so that there aren't two brown layers together or is it really all that big of a deal to adhere to the brown-green-brown theme?

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Comments (18)

kqcrna
16 years ago
Googling "compost ingredients" will give you many options.

In reality "green" and "brown" are relative. All organic matter will have both N and C, the difference being their relative C:N ratio. High C:N ratios might be 80:1 or even higher, (like 200 or 300:1) - these are referred to as "browns", and include fall leaves, sawdust, wood, straw, etc.

"Greens" have a low C:N ratio, they are high in N. These include coffee grounds, grass clippings, fruit and veggie scraps, etc.

Generally a C:N ratio lower than 30:1 is a strong green, once it gets to 80:1, that's pretty "brown". But an ideal mix of the 2 for composting is 30:1.

I realize that this sounds confusing, but once you get the gist of it, it really isn't. It's just not easy to explain in 1 or 2 sentences. If you pile up a mix of high C:N ratio stuff with low C:N ratio stuff, it will rot eventually. The biggest difference will be the quality of the finished product and the time it takes to rot.

I strongly suggest you visit and explore the soil and compost forum, there is a wealth of information there.

Karen
tiffy_z5_6_can
16 years ago
I have to agree with Karen - Do visit the Soil and Compost Forum and read, read, read. Ask questions too.

If you want more greens in the form of UCGs (used coffee grounds) you might want to check-out a coffee shop that may supply you with them. I get mine from a gas station that sells an unbelievable amount of coffee. I can collect 250+ lbs. of UCGs from them in the course of a week and I'll dump it all in a lasagna bed, filters included, or use it for my compost. Starbucks also has a corporate 'Grounds for Gardens' program whereby they give their UCGs our for your gardens, so if you have one near you, you may want to explore that avenue.
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hi everyone, hopefully there's someone still reading this... I just made my first lasagna bed last fall. What I found was that first, it was super easy, and second - it was SO EASY! And it looks like I just added a foot of growing medium where there was previously just grass! I really did not like the idea of pulling up sod, shaking out the dirt, and worring about microrganisims leaving before I planted. It's a lot of work, which, for food, work is just part of the process. But after I observed a garden at a Permaculture class that was growing melons and squash after being lawn just months before with no tilling or weeding, I knew I needed to try this. I still haven't seen my bed yet since I completed it last fall, as we still have feet of snow on the ground and it's mid-april now. But before the snow fell, my garden included a lot of great material, none of it cost me a penny and all came from my area. What helped me was looking in a composting book for lists of bulkly material that could be composted. There were a lot of good ideas. The layers were as such, from bottom to top: newspapers spent barley malt from a local brewery chunky mostly finished compost grass clippings rotted manure soil from a previously dug out pond autumn leaves Now that I've been reading more, I think that I would have put in some sand from our sand pit down the road to help with drainage. I strongly believe there is no "right" way to make this concept work. There are many paths leading from many places to accomplish your goal with what you have for initiative, brains, and mulch materials. I am so happy to be able to find this out right when I needed it most. What I didn't like was the idea of going to the store to buy 50 bales of peat moss!!! I already purchase one bale for starting seedlings. I like how people are using spoiled hay, which in many places, is very abundant. I don't believe that a good bed requires peat moss; nor do I think it's a bad thing to use it. I just don't like the idea of paying for it and depleating a very very slow-growing resource when there are many other materials to try out first. I look forward to getting a bunch of the spoiled hay this spring. That is if we ever see a day without snow here in Maine... My question is: has anyone used lasagna gardening for beds in a large greenhouse? Would love to hear about it!
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I tend to think that many people believe they can "recycle" better than large corporations. IOW, just bury newspapers and cardboard boxes, turn it into compost and skip the middle man, since you are using it as decomposing material. You are saving energy, recycling, saving the landfills, and promoting an Organic garden with natural materials. I don't believe it for a second, now. As a teen I worked at a warehouse and we stacked broken down cardboard boxes outside the doors. After a rain, especially multiple rains this gooey slime would drip down the sides of the freight dock. It was nasty and sticky that never seemed to go away after the cardboard was picked up. Then years later using cardboard in my garden, thinking the way most do, I found cardboard two years later in the ground and even detected the gooey slime. That caused me to do some research and I found out that I was very far from Organic. I would have been more organic using Miracle-Gro. Here is what I found: Cardboard in cardboard boxes: Semi-Chem (semi-chemical fluting medium) is applied to stretch" the fibers, making it stronger and stiffer. Where the corrugated short fiber paper are usually used for peaks and valleys of each flute, then glued using starch adhesives. While these adhesives sound innocent enough since they are called, "starch adhesives" (usually shipped to the cardboard manufacturer as a powder) they are seldom made up of Tapioca dextrin, the adhesive used for postage stamps. They most likely will be incorporated with 5 to 15% resins, such as urea formaldehyde, and especially used for cartons where water resistance is helpful. Most dextrin combinations are heated upward of 600 degrees to create a stronger bonding agent. If the paper lacks the amount of wax necessary for good fluting, wax bars are introduced in the process. Newspaper ink: Since 2004, 95% of American newspaper ink is now soy based, as opposed to petroleum based. To make soy ink, soybean oil is slightly refined and then blended with pigment, resins, and waxes. Even though soybean oil is an edible vegetable oil, soy ink is not edible or 100% biodegradable because the pigments and other additives that are mixed with the oil are the same as those used in petroleum-based inks. However it does degrade four times as completely as standard petroleum inks. The fact that this newer ink has rave reviews how it can be "recycled" easier, doesn't mean it is safe for consumption. It only means the soy ink can be removed more easily than regular ink from recycled newspaper during the de-inking process. Maybe less of a concern, but still a concern is that 92% of soybean acreage in the US is planted with genetically-modified soybeans, which some believe can pose environmental and human health risks. I just don't think working so hard on my garden to get it right, I want to introduce consumer products into the soil if it's not necessary. The only motivation that I can see is that it makes you feel like you are recycling on the most basic level and saving a tiny bit of money. My cardboard and newspaper needs to go to a recycling plant or landfill and let dirt in my garden do the rest.
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Well, I guess I will add my two cents worth, though ha' penny's worth might be more accurate. I don't really like the terms that are used most often because of misconceptions people have. Many people think square foot gardening is little square plots with diverse things in it and the plots have to be arranged all in neat rows. It doesn't have to be that mundane. Several responses here have said that, and I have to add my "that's right!" to it. I prefer small space gardening as a term. I also like layer gardening rather than lasagna gardening because there is a misconception that lasagna gardening is a set method of preparation that requires a sort of recipe approach. That all being said, small space gardening is what it is. There are basic principles that make it work well. Combining it with layer gardening, however, is a little tricky. One of the problems you run into is your layers. Some of us who have started gardening from scratch have no green stuff to put into a garden layer. In a new house inside a new subdivision? Yeah, I am. No trees! Where am I going to get brown stuff to put into a garden layer? And, if you do find the ingredients, the layers are not bioavailable and do nothing but act as mulch for a year or two. The added difficulty is planting things in those layers, or through the layers to the untreated soil beneath (which is what you are really doing that first year). The truth is that this method takes way too much time anyway. If you want to start fast and then add greens and browns to keep going, here is a good way I have used again and again. And this method actually speeds things up and adds a wonderful treat to your garden. Step one: become a grass murderer! Sorry, but you have to. Kill the grass in the bed you want to make. Removal is best, but back breaking, and if you have that hated weed, Bermuda grass, you will just get invaded from anything you missed. For that reason, you want to put down something that will choke the grass out well enough not to leave any behind. I like using a combination of newspaper and cardboard in the winter. Next put up your bed walls to contain your bed, being sure that you have the walls a little smaller than your newspaper and cardboard prep. This is because one of the most annoying things is to build your bed walls first and have grass survive at the very inside edge of your bed, sending runners all through your bed in early spring. Next layer the bed. I use the following, but the trick is to come up with your own that works for you. You will notice that I use a little more wood much than you would expect, but wait for it! There is a good reason. Starting with the deepest layers: Composted humus and manure sand wood mulch composted humus and manure top soil wood mulch Now, this can be planted as soon as spring hits (or immediately if you are growing some cool season crops). Now you need to do something that will break down all that wood mulch (remember I used two layers). I like to use King Stropharia mushroom spawn and put it in the garden. Okay, I know that sounds crazy, but it will make sense in a minute. King Stropharia is an edible mushroom and decomposer that works wonders. As it breaks down the wood, it releases nutrients to the soil and attracts earthworms. It also preys on nematodes. After your first season of gardening, you can cut all the dead stuff and put it in the garden. Throw in some more wood chips or wood mulch (hardwood works best in my experience) and the mushrooms will keep digesting and composting the soil. You then plant again the next year, leaving the layer of debris and mulch from the previous year on top and harvesting your mushrooms. The result is that you now have an active, living compost pile right in your garden that you can layer things on to your heart is content. If where you live is warm enough to grow the mushroom, I definitely say you should try it. I have heard that phoenix oyster mushrooms work equally well for setting up a space saving garden with layering.
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hellerlake wrote ... "The arborist's chips I have gotten always came full of shredded leaves and/or needles which begin to break down immediately. There's plenty of nitrogen/organics. As for mulched beds that have not loosened up, what were they mulched with? Bark? Bark is naturally imbued with a waxy substance to protect the tree from moisture. It's suberized. It never really breaks down, and incorporates into the soil because of the suberization. Eventually, it breaks down into waxy, little fibers that form a crust on top of the soil. " An arborist friend once had a 25' tall birch tree-spade moved to his front yard. To start, the hole was half where the lawn was, and half in shrub bed that was never rototilled - same soil to start - but had a barkdust layer maintained for at least 10 years. The half circle in the lawn when dug, was pretty much unchanged. But old bark had decomposed enough to improve the bed soil. Down to 12" depth it was darkened some, and crumbled. It was handy to have seen the side-by-side comparison where the soil history was known, to see the change on the bark side, versus the lawn compacted by mower tires and bag weight side. Sometimes I've applied both. The last home in south Oregon, I put down about 8 truck loads of the chipped tree branches first, then laid barkdust on top for a more groomed look. 20 years ago, when we got about 30 big truckloads at my mother's 2nd acre in Beaverton, the wood chips with plenty of branch wood broke down pretty quick, which was nice. Thought it may be worth adding ... One golf course superintendent I worked under at Columbia Edgewater Country club in Portland, some year back, used to add fine barkdust to the sand for some of the new greens. It was because they decomposed - but decomposed slowly. The new greens were about 3% to 5% bark and the rest sand. His education was in agronomy. From what I've seen since then, the method makes sense.
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ghoghunter
16 years ago
Greens which are high in nitrogen are hard to find naturally at this time of year. Composted cow manure or blood meal which you would have to buy are great and both high in nitrogen. Don't worry about the ingredients breaking down because they will do that in their own time. You plant in the bed anyway. The nirtogen is necessary for the decomposition and also to feed your plants. The book "Lasagna Gardening" by PAt Lanza is available at your library or at Amazon. I highly recommend it. She will answer all your questions.

Here is a link that might be useful: Lasagna Gardening
richdelmo
16 years ago
Got this link from the soil and compost forum, it's more than most of us care to need or know but it helps if you want to understand the brown to green ratios.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Carbon/Nitrogen Ratio
kqcrna
16 years ago
Or expressed as C:N ratios

Karen

Here is a link that might be useful: C:N ratios
diggerdee zone 6 CT
16 years ago
I second (third?) the advice to visit the Soil, Mulch, & Compost forum. What a great place! Lots of info. I don't post a whole lot there but boy do I read a whole lot!

I also second the recommendation for cow manure. When I'm short of greens I'll spread a layer of bagged composted cow manure over everything as a green layer.

Last year while doing a huge lasagna bed I collected coffee grounds from a local coffee shop. Yes, they thought I was a bit odd, but was glad to hear from one teenager who worked there that her aunt collected dog hair from a grooming place for her pile, so she knew exactly what I was up to, lol!

I almost worked up the nerve just yesterday to ask for the spoiled produce at my local supermarket, but chickened out. It wasn't the usual manager. When I see him, I'll ask. He's already given me a bag of corn husks last summer so he shouldn't be too weirded out, lol!

Good luck!
:)
Dee
terrene
16 years ago
I collect UCG's from the convenience mart that is about a mile down the street. They were willing to fill 5 gallon buckets for me. I swap out 2 5-gallon buckets each week (they create more, but once a week works for me in the winter).

We've been pummeled with snow this winter. Literally I've seen the ground/garden beds a total of 6 days the whole winter. Because I have no idea where exactly the lasagne beds are, I am just piling the UCGs in a big pile.

I took this picture 2 days ago, after we had some rain earlier in the week and it washed away about half the snow cover. You can see my pile of UCG's, bags of leaves collected last fall (30-something), and one of the cardboard piles behind that. The wood is leftover from tree removal in November.

Yesterday we got another 10 inches of snow! You can't see anything out there now...

{{gwi:267191}}
tiffy_z5_6_can
16 years ago
This is my heavenly pile about to get some yum-yums!

{{gwi:262030}}
ambbutterfly
Original Author
16 years ago
Hey all,
Thanks so much for answering my question, and it makes a lot more sense now. I don't know why I didn't think about looking up a soil and compost forum but it really didn't occur to me that there would be something like that. I guess I'll have to check into that. Also, thanks for the links and the pictures. I loved those pictures! I guess I won't worry so much about exactly alternating piles like when you make lasagna, as long as the proportions are there eventually. I know it would be to my benefit (the plants really) to at least try to include enough of both brown and green at some point. I figure mowing will start in late April here and since our yard it fairly big, it would probably only take one mowing to get enough green. I just have to do a lot of push mowing because that's our only mower with a bagger. That's actually how I collected my leaves in the fall and then put them in the beds for mulch and also put a lot in garbage bags for use this year. Oh, and btw, thanks also for the idea of getting coffee grounds from a store. I happen to have a convenience store not real far from me. I guess I'll have to dig up a 5-gallon bucket around here somewhere and take it down in case they're willing to save the UCG's for me. I've learned so much from this thread and now I'm off to do some more reading! :)
amb
tiffy_z5_6_can
16 years ago
amb,

To make it easy on you, I"ll post a link to the S&C Forum.

So glad you mentioned the push mower. I've been thinking of getting one and convincing DH that it's the way to go. We do have a lot of lawn, but the thought of being able to get the leaves off in the fall with a push type is ideal! I raise Monarchs and I don't like using the gas mower and because of the size of our lawns, an electric one is out of the question. Personally, I also like the idea of no gas, and not having to painfully try to start the #%?!! thing.

I will offer a bit of advice in terms of picking up your UCGs from a convenience store or similar. Provide clean buckets and pick-up when you've committed to do so. If you can't, then call them up to let them know when you can.

I was willing to share my pick-ups with someone else, but soon discovered that the other person wasn't being timely and sometimes gave them dirty buckets. I haven't done any composting this winter so dropped by to see how things were going and the staff asked when I would be starting again. They want me back!! :O) They were happy to hear that I'll be starting the ritual in March. I'm happy I didn't lose them as a great source of greens. I also get tons of banana peels from them.

Have fun!!

Here is a link that might be useful: S&C Forum
kqcrna
16 years ago
Tiffy just posts pictures of her compost to make us all jealous.

Karen
richdelmo
16 years ago
It works.....
diggerdee zone 6 CT
16 years ago
LOL, every time I scroll by that photo I hear a choir sing....!!

:)
Dee
kqcrna
16 years ago
Dee: Do the dog rear ends fit into the singing choir image?

amberbutterfly: Start mowing even earlier than necessary. First mowing will probably give you pre-mixed grass and dead leaves (i.e. green-brown mix). And if you use a lot off grass and those bagged leaves you have a great start.

Karen
mokey
16 years ago
i have a lasagna garden that i started late last summer. i probably only did 3 layers of cardboard, leaves, leftover food then repeat. in the early winter when the leaves finally fell i started over. evertime i accumulated enough food scraps, i did another layer. i did manage to get some coffee grounds into one of the layers. so there is a total of 6 layers out there now even though it looks like one with the shrinkage.
diggerdee zone 6 CT
16 years ago
Lol, Tiffy, I didn't even notice them! My eyes go right to that shaft of heavenly light, lol!
tiffy_z5_6_can
16 years ago
Dee, I figured the heavenly rays would draw some cute comments!! :O) Not sure where the dog butts fit into the picture... pardon the pun.

After the snow melts completely, this area becomes filled with winter sown containers which have to exit the deck. It's a great place because of the dappled shade.

Oh, and Karen, something makes me think you have an equally envious place somewhere around your home since you are filled with great knowledge. I always learn a thing or two from your responses.

As for you, Rich, I KNOW you have a stash of good stuff. Massachussetts isn't that far away! :O) I can smell good compost from a great distance.
ambbutterfly
Original Author
16 years ago
If only everyone in life were as nice and helpful as people on this forum. I enjoy it here so much! =)
tiffy, Thanks, your link makes it easy. I didn't get much reading done yet because today was my cleaning the house day. With all of my ws stuff sitting in the kitchen, it makes it kind of hard to clean! :O Maybe I should have said self-propelled mower, but I call our mower a push mower because it's not a riding mower. I guess "walk-behind mower" would be even better to call ours. We have a riding mower but nothing to bag leaves with it.
Btw, I also raise Monarchs. It's fun, eh? I would also like to raise other kinds of butterflies too to release them here at the house.
I will follow your advice about the coffee grounds. I just hope I can get them to save them for me. I can imagine I'll get some weird looks. Ha. That's great that the place you got your UCG's from before will save them for you again. I figure it saves them from paying to throw them away, keeps them out of the landfill, and also helps our soil and plants.

Karen, Yes, I think you're right. I know I am jealous! ;-) Oh, and mowing earlier sounds good to me. I would like to plant the lasagna garden in probably June when I'm done planting my other beds that are already ready to go.

Mokey, Your method sounds good to me. I figure I'll just throw on whatever I have at the time and hope it all works out in the end. I'd rather just dump my scraps there right away rather than put them in another location first and have to move everything later. Anything to save on my back is the way I go.

Lasagna gardening ?

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